66 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Davers, on 14 April 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

1. No min range is bad. It really steps on SSRMs toes.
2.Limited turn range means that they are still devastating to anything but lights.
3. Streamed launch? So just like the planned SSRMs, only firing faster? (20 LRMs in one second)
4. Missile trajectory is an odd thing. Only a few degrees separated 'head busters' fromO 'handfuls of gravel'.

Balancing Clan weapons is going to be near impossible because they are not really 'alternate weapons' as much as 'vastly improved weapons'.

Some interesting points.

1. Streak's role from TT doesn't really exist in this game. In this game they are supplemental close range damage and specialized light killing weapons since they're one of the most reliable ways to hit lights. My described LRMs would be long range damage and close range supplemental that is not so good on lights.

2. 20 damage, spread across your mech (LRMs do have spread), over 1 second, for 5 tons + ammo is less devastating than 4 IS medium lasers.

3. If you would prefer all 20 coming out at the same time I guess you could twist my arm.

4. Indeed, they also separate hiding behind a hill lobbing missiles and just high enough to not hit friendlies in the back.

My idea is this. It is almost impossible to balance the 5 ton Clan LRM20 to the 10 ton IS LRM20 if they behave the same. In order to balance that way you need the CLRM20's effectiveness to be the same as the IS LRM10. Doesn't that sound fun?

By lowering the arc you turn it into a weapon that is difficult to use on targets you do not have line of sight with. If you do that and give them a 180 min range you create a range where they are a liability, and if you're closing anyways why not just use direct fire for long range backed up with streaks?

Give it a long recycle time, say 6 seconds so that medium lasers and AC20s still way out perform it in close. Heat can be pretty high too with that long of a recycle. Screen shake would probably need to be reduced if you're getting hit by missiles for over 1 second (not counting if they are chain fired).

I think that would be preferable to a 4xLRM15 Summoner hiding behind a hill.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I honestly hope they balance the clan ballistics and missiles utilizing ammo counts. I mean, clan ammo technically has CASE that takes no weight and no crits.

IS UAC-5:
Range: 600m
Damage: 5
Heat: 1
Cooldown: 1.5
Weight: 9 tons
Crits: 5
Ammo/ton: 30

Clan UAC-5:
Range: 630m
Damage: 5
Heat: 1
Cooldown 1.5
Weight: 7 tons
Crits: 3
Ammo/ton: 15

An IS UAC-5 with 60 rounds is a total of 11 tons and 7 crits. A Clan UAC-5 with 60 rounds is now a total of 11 tons and 7 crits. So while the weapon is lighter, to feed the weapon you need to dedicate more tonnage to ammo. And since Clan ammo comes with CASE, reducing the ammo per ton to compensate for it's included case.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

JohanssenJr, on 14 April 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

I honestly hope they balance the clan ballistics and missiles utilizing ammo counts. I mean, clan ammo technically has CASE that takes no weight and no crits.
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An IS UAC-5 with 60 rounds is a total of 11 tons and 7 crits. A Clan UAC-5 with 60 rounds is now a total of 11 tons and 7 crits. So while the weapon is lighter, to feed the weapon you need to dedicate more tonnage to ammo. And since Clan ammo comes with CASE, reducing the ammo per ton to compensate for it's included case.

The Ultra Auto Cannons are a whole other can of worms. But I don't think ammo is the way to balance something. It really only changes the length of time something is OP during a match or how many back up weapons it will get.

The UAC5 example works out very neatly so lets look at the most extreme example I can think of

The Dire Wolf has 50.5 tons available for equipment. It does not have endo or ferro. 2xUAC20s weigh 24 tons together. If you dropped UAC20 ammo down to 1 shot per ton someone could still mount 26 shots with an ER Small Laser for backup. It may be out of ammo quick but the first two guys who turned that corner may still feel its a bit OP.

Now if we come back a bit the Stormcrow B is only going to have about 2 shots for its UAC20.

Long story short ammo can be tweaked but should not be the main balancing factor.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Rouken, on 14 April 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

The Ultra Auto Cannons are a whole other can of worms. But I don't think ammo is the way to balance something. It really only changes the length of time something is OP during a match or how many back up weapons it will get.

The Dire Wolf has 50.5 tons available for equipment. It does not have endo or ferro. 2xUAC20s weigh 24 tons together. If you dropped UAC20 ammo down to 1 shot per ton someone could still mount 26 shots with an ER Small Laser for backup. It may be out of ammo quick but the first two guys who turned that corner may still feel its a bit OP.

One idea for balancing UACs would be actually to turn them into what some people a proposing to other ACs ie make them rapid firing autocannons with multiple projectiles. Generally I am not a fan of making all ACs hitscan weapons, there is something to slamming that ac20 slug to you esteemed opponent.
But since we have UACs which are "more rapidly firing autocannons" this would enable to make them quite different, perhaps up the damage from one-slug ACs

Actually, one could also them implement firing mode toggle for UACs, one slug or stream of hurt
(And yeah, single type of ammo aspect of it... you can fluff it away with something, it's btech)
That way the definitely would have a 'different flavor' to normal ACs and not necessarily THAT much better. (They are still lighter and more compact anyways)


Another horrible weapon is cermlas vs is llas, as written in TT, 1/5 weight, nearly identical damage, same range.

IS m laser w:1t dmg:5 crits:1 h:3 max range: 9
Cl ER medium w:1t dmg:7 crits:1 h:5 max range: 15
IS l laser w:5t dmg:8 crits:2 h:8 max range: 15

The clan laser is so OP that it hurts, damage I think can be implemented with longer burn time (Since it ups heat as well, no gripes here) but the range has to come down.

[Mcgral18]

Haakon Magnusson, on 14 April 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

Generally I am not a fan of making all ACs hitscan weapons, there is

Not hitscan, lasers and MGs are hitscan. ACs are projectile.

It fits lore, where over 90% of the ACs are burst. Firing ~3-100 shots to get that damage. A 4 shot AC would work to spread damage in MWO, while still being easy to keep on target.

ACs and PPCs are the only weapon that don't have a spread mechanic built in to them, and one of the reasons the meta favours them heavily. ACs also have the lowest heat and highest potential damage. On top of the above favourable damage application.


As for LRMs, the "min range" damage scaling seems like a decent place to start. It stops them from being the SSRM20, but not being useless. A change of arc can make a big difference as well.

[Joseph Mallan]

Clan Mech with LRMs MUST have LoS to get a lock. I am fine with them having no Minimums, and the rest.

[Demuder]

I don't want to spoil your party, but I think you guys are overthinking this - compared to the thought PGI will put in it.

Clan weapons (not just LRMs) will weigh less than IS weapons, do the same damage as IS weapons, have maybe a bit longer ranger and will be balanced by PGI's trademark balancing, increased heat output and increased ghost heat penalties. And that will be that.

Edited by dimstog, 15 April 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Best guess so far I think Dims.

[Bishop Steiner]

dimstog, on 15 April 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

I don't want to spoil your party, but I think you guys are overthinking this - compared to the thought PGI will put in it.

Clan weapons (not just LRMs) will weigh less than IS weapons, do the same damage as IS weapons, have maybe a bit longer ranger and will be balanced by PGI's trademark balancing, increased heat output and increased ghost heat penalties. And that will be that.

I'm not trying to guess anything Dims, I am throwing out ideas in the slim hope that some might sift through a Devs skull by osmosis so we might actually finally get some kind of better balancing crutch than Paul's lazy man's special, HEAT.

Occasionally, when enough complaining has been accomplished, these ideas do get used (albeit without credit given) such as the CT/Leg hitbox change, which Paul should have posted CarrionCrows name all over.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

dimstog, on 15 April 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

I don't want to spoil your party, but I think you guys are overthinking this - compared to the thought PGI will put in it.

Clan weapons (not just LRMs) will weigh less than IS weapons, do the same damage as IS weapons, have maybe a bit longer ranger and will be balanced by PGI's trademark balancing, increased heat output and increased ghost heat penalties. And that will be that.

Shhhhhhhhhh...

Let us dream.

[Wolfways]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

I only have a problem with this part. Not the firing arc, but that currently, due to arena's instead of battlefields LRM's are not long range weapons. If you want to have a chance of hitting anything over about half their max range the missile flight speed would have to be vastly increased.
Even then, as long as you need to keep facing the target until they hit they are still pathetic compared to FLD weapons.

[Wolfways]

CyclonerM, on 14 April 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I used to like the "flat trajectory" idea until Paul reminded me that "SSRM20s" would be bad for game balance.. So let us try with the opposite! MWLL got it right: As soon as they are fired LRMs fly with a very high arc so that it is not easy to hit enemies at very close range but if you tilt down you could hit a close enemy.

He must really hate the AC20 then...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

1) Clan LRMs cannot lock using other mechs targeting data. Hence, no Indirect or "Support" fire, which the Clans supposedly find cowardly anyhow. This lack of extra computers and such might help explain some of the weight discrepancy, too.

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

3) Reduce their Ammo loadouts to TT figures. Clans were notorious for not having enough ammo for long engagements. Clans should dominate the first 5 minutes of a match, and be out of ammo pretty much for the rest (which if played well, the fight should be over, in theory, anyhow)

4) Modules. They should not get Modules that boost inherently "dishonorable" weapons, like Advanced Target Decay.

1 - Having cLRMs be LoS only is a very good limitation. I'd say that Clan lock-on weapons in general should only let you lock on if your launcher can trace a ray from the weapon to the aim point.

2 - Making the arc much flatter is also good.

3 - Ammo count is something that should be tweaked on the fly, but starting with a lower base value is fine.

4 - Given that cLRMs would be LoS-only and with flat trajectories (assuming 1 and 2 above both get adopted) this should be unnecessary. Target Decay would still be useful for scouting, but it would have no effect for locks.

I do have a few other suggestions as well:

5 - Reduce cLRM maximum range relative to LRMs by 180m.

6 - Give them a very large initial spread that tightens up a couple hundred meters down range. This would spread damage a lot up-close, limiting their use as SSRM10 wannabes (half the damage per missile, with 20 missiles, effectively a 10-pack).

7 - Give both LRMs and cLRMs SSRM-style bone-tracking, in groups of 5 missiles.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Mcgral18, on 15 April 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

Not hitscan, lasers and MGs are hitscan. ACs are projectile.

It fits lore, where over 90% of the ACs are burst. Firing ~3-100 shots to get that damage. A 4 shot AC would work to spread damage in MWO, while still being easy to keep on target.

Well, making the ultra burst, itsn't that quite the same as hitscan(?) lasers tick away their damage in x seconds in tics. That would basically be what burst ultra would be doing, just add projectile effects a la MG

Although dimstog propably nailed what the first implementation will be, I am just hoping that SOMEONE in design who is looking for ideas is accidentally reading and might carry some of these to powers that be.

[Mcgral18]

Haakon Magnusson, on 15 April 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Well, making the ultra burst, itsn't that quite the same as hitscan(?) lasers tick away their damage in x seconds in tics. That would basically be what burst ultra would be doing, just add projectile effects a la MG

Although dimstog propably nailed what the first implementation will be, I am just hoping that SOMEONE in design who is looking for ideas is accidentally reading and might carry some of these to powers that be.

No, hitscan is light speed, where you aim is where you hit.

These bursts would still be projectiles (likely faster) that you would have to lead. There is a difference. Making them hitscan would simply be making them heavy lasers. Despite what some people say, that's not what I want.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 April 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

1) Clan LRMs cannot lock using other mechs targeting data. Hence, no Indirect or "Support" fire, which the Clans supposedly find cowardly anyhow. This lack of extra computers and such might help explain some of the weight discrepancy, too.

2) Have a much flatter firing arc, again, removing them from the realm of "Support" weapon, and making them a LoS Long Range Dueling Weapon.

3) Reduce their Ammo loadouts to TT figures. Clans were notorious for not having enough ammo for long engagements. Clans should dominate the first 5 minutes of a match, and be out of ammo pretty much for the rest (which if played well, the fight should be over, in theory, anyhow)

4) Modules. They should not get Modules that boost inherently "dishonorable" weapons, like Advanced Target Decay.

I don't get why you want to nerf an already useless weapons system...?

1: Turning an indirect fire weapon into a direct fire weapon...? Why? A/C's and PPC's own the direct fire arena. No one would want to take slower direct fire weapons.

2: Some what flatter is fine, but again we're talking about an indirect fire weapon.

3: Again, nerfing a system that is already in a bad place. LRM's already have to take far more ammo than any other weapons system, and now you're going to make them carry even more?

4: ??? When did honor join game balancing?

Some one also stated that they should fire in a stream. I'd be fine with that. It would be a huge buff to CLRM's and LRM's in general as it would reduce the spread to 0. Would remove the need for tag as well. Though I'd hate to be hit by a stream of 50 LRM's right to the center torso. Screen shake would also be pretty epic.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

WhoDidTheElf, on 15 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't get why you want to nerf an already useless weapons system...?

1: Turning an indirect fire weapon into a direct fire weapon...? Why? A/C's and PPC's own the direct fire arena. No one would want to take slower direct fire weapons.

2: Some what flatter is fine, but again we're talking about an indirect fire weapon.

3: Again, nerfing a system that is already in a bad place. LRM's already have to take far more ammo than any other weapons system, and now you're going to make them carry even more?

4: ??? When did honor join game balancing?

Some one also stated that they should fire in a stream. I'd be fine with that. It would be a huge buff to CLRM's and LRM's in general as it would reduce the spread to 0. Would remove the need for tag as well. Though I'd hate to be hit by a stream of 50 LRM's right to the center torso. Screen shake would also be pretty epic.

1. Depends on which complaint thread you're reading on the forums. I think the current LRMs are fine.

2. I think pretty much everyone agrees that the original Clan weapons were designed to be vastly superior. PGI has stated they do not want the Clans to be way overpowered in this game. So Bishop created a thread giving his ideas on the matter and we have been trying to derail it ever since

3. I don't entirely agree or disagree on this point.

4. Gameplay should take priority over lore but lore should not be forgotten and in this case gives us an interesting alternative to just nerfing the numbers.

I'm not sure why you assume there would be no spread, current launchers have spread and the missiles are not pushing each other away. They are programmed to spread out.

[Wolfways]

WhoDidTheElf, on 15 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't get why you want to nerf an already useless weapons system...?

I agree

Quote

1: Turning an indirect fire weapon into a direct fire weapon...? Why? A/C's and PPC's own the direct fire arena. No one would want to take slower direct fire weapons.

Yep

Quote

2: Some what flatter is fine, but again we're talking about an indirect fire weapon.

Ye...er..nope. LRM's are direct-fire weapons that have the added ability to be fired indirect. The only reason they are mainly use as indirect-fire weapons in MWO is because the maps are tiny arena's instead of large battlefields where the missiles cannot be used as intended. i.e. long range.

Quote

3: Again, nerfing a system that is already in a bad place. LRM's already have to take far more ammo than any other weapons system, and now you're going to make them carry even more?

4: ??? When did honor join game balancing?

Some one also stated that they should fire in a stream. I'd be fine with that. It would be a huge buff to CLRM's and LRM's in general as it would reduce the spread to 0. Would remove the need for tag as well. Though I'd hate to be hit by a stream of 50 LRM's right to the center torso. Screen shake would also be pretty epic.

I don't think anyone meant reduce the spread, just increase the time it takes for all the missiles in a salvo to leave the launcher.

[DONTOR]

As a Honorable Clanner, I find these to be very good suggestions Bishop. I hate LRMs because they are indirect and BORING. What you are proposing would make them actually fun and I might enjoy them if they were as such.

Except for only 5 minutes worth of ammo, obviously thats a rough number, but a little less than IS would be fine with me. It will take me less rounds to kill IS mechs anyhow.

Edited by DONTOR, 15 April 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WhoDidTheElf, on 15 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't get why you want to nerf an already useless weapons system...?

1: Turning an indirect fire weapon into a direct fire weapon...? Why? A/C's and PPC's own the direct fire arena. No one would want to take slower direct fire weapons.

2: Some what flatter is fine, but again we're talking about an indirect fire weapon.

3: Again, nerfing a system that is already in a bad place. LRM's already have to take far more ammo than any other weapons system, and now you're going to make them carry even more?

4: ??? When did honor join game balancing?

Some one also stated that they should fire in a stream. I'd be fine with that. It would be a huge buff to CLRM's and LRM's in general as it would reduce the spread to 0. Would remove the need for tag as well. Though I'd hate to be hit by a stream of 50 LRM's right to the center torso. Screen shake would also be pretty epic.

not sure is serious or troll...........