57 replies to this topic

[Ecrof]

I saw this post and thought it looked like a good suggestion and possibly the direction the Paul was heading with the balance of ACs.

Khobai, on 15 April 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

I agree the max ranges need to be reduced from x3 to x2 (although maybe try x2.5 first). The AC5s optimum range should also be reduced from 620 to 540 to help give the AC2 a stronger role as the longest ranged autocannon

These are the stats the autocannons should have:
AC20 = 270m/540m and (5 dps, 6 heat)
AC10 = 450m/900m and (4 dps, 3 heat)
AC5 = 540m/1080m (reduced from 620 to 540) and (3 dps, 1.5 heat)
AC2 = 720m/1440m and (3 dps, 0.6 heat)

That would eliminate most of the range overlap between autocannons and give each autocannon their own range niche where they dominate. The heat for all autocannons has also been normalized.

Edited by Ecrof, 16 April 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[FupDup]

That can't possibly be what Paul plans, because Khobai asked for a heat reduction to the AC/2. A buff. Those things are taboo around here outside of relatively meaningless ones (i.e. pulse laser range increase or SRM2 RoF increase).

[xCico]

Well I do think ACs are in right place now, ac5 speed and cooldown nerf seems to be reasonable, and ac2 is still viable when there 2,3 ac2s in mech

No need to nerf autocannons anymore, or buff them also

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I like how you hit "Reply" then copied that text into an entirely new thread, I think this should a trend on our new forums, where no one ever replies to a post, and instead just makes an entirely new thread.

[Khobai]

Quote

No need to nerf autocannons anymore, or buff them also

Completely disagree. Autocannon balance is still a HUGE mess. The AC20 does more damage than the AC10 at the AC10s optimum range, making the AC10 largely obsolete. Likewise the AC5 has a longer range now than the AC2 which is the complete opposite of how Battletech should be. Ideally each autocannon should have its own range niche where its dominant over the other three autocannons.

1) Autocannons need their max ranges reduced from x3 to x2 (or possibly x2.5 if x2 is too severe). The AC5 also needs it range reduced from 620m to 540m so it no longer significantly outdamages the AC2 at the AC2s optimum range.

2) Autocannon heat needs to be normalized. AC5s need their heat increased to 1.5, because every other weapon (besides gauss which was nerfed HARD) generates heat, so its about time AC5s generate heat too. Additionally, AC2 heat needs to be reduced to 0.6. That normalizes ALL autocannon heat at 0.3 heat per 1 damage.

3) PGI needs to balance PPCs once and for all instead of allowing overpowered PPCs to continually dictate game balance changes for other weapons like Gauss and ACs. Its ridiculous that other weapons have to keep paying the price for PPCs being too good. The most absurd example being the AC10 projectile speed nerf.

Edited by Khobai, 16 April 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[xCico]

@Khobai

Yes i forgot about range, my bad
1) Definetly agree
2) Heat is IMO normal
3) Definetly agree

[dario03]

Almighty Cico, on 16 April 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well I do think ACs are in right place now, ac5 speed and cooldown nerf seems to be reasonable, and ac2 is still viable when there 2,3 ac2s in mech

No need to nerf autocannons anymore, or buff them also

Viable? I mean sure it works but It has 2.5x the HPS with almost no benefit over the AC5. The only thing they have going for them is
-regular range (extra 100m for full damage but faster drop off of damage and does nothing 260m sooner)
-speed (which isn't a big deal since that mostly helped with far shots and the extended range is so much shorter now)
-crit and weight (but needing to add DHS takes that away and then some unless you just want 1 on a otherwise heat efficient build and just can't get a AC5)

Here compare the heat of a 3 ac2 mech and a 3 ac5 mech
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...86976ed649edc90
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ad87cf21163c145
And you need to face your enemy a lot more with the AC2 and worry about ghost heat it if you chain fire.

Edited by dario03, 16 April 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[Flying Blind]

Ecrof, on 16 April 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I saw this post and thought it looked like a good suggestion and possibly the direction the Paul was heading with the balance of ACs.

I agree with the balance parts. No idea what goes on in Paul's head or any of the other devs. I can only hope they see this and think it a good idea.

[dJellyfish]

dario03, on 16 April 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Here compare the heat of a 3 ac2 mech and a 3 ac5 mech
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...86976ed649edc90
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ad87cf21163c145
And you need to face your enemy a lot more with the AC2 and worry about ghost heat it if you chain fire.

3 AC/2 requires 26 DHS to deficiently match 3 AC/5 with base 10 DHS. That's so totally broken.

[Ultimax]

Ecrof, on 16 April 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I saw this post and thought it looked like a good suggestion and possibly the direction the Paul was heading with the balance of ACs.

The AC 5 does not need a base range nerf, no matter how many people (on the forums) dislike poptarts. I think it's fine at 620.



I'm OK with cutting max range of all ACs down to 2x, because in the last hundred+ drops the times I saw players actively shooting targets at that range could be counted on one hand.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 16 April 2014 - 03:19 PM.

[ImperialKnight]

If they want to keep the DPS and range on AC2, the heat needs to be halved.

[R Razor]

That's a riot........overpowered PPC's I mean...........Autocannons DOMINATE this game at the moment.......they don't get too hot, they carry MORE than enough ammo and the pinpoint FLD setup PGI uses favors them IMMENSELY when you factor in their ROF.

PPC's run WAY too hot on most maps to compete with a Dakka mech, and lasers spread damage while running hot and don't stand a chance of competing with them.

Normalize autocannon range and heat, THEN BRING BACK Repair and Re-arm costs to eliminate the spamming of ballistics and cause folks to actually AIM and squeeze the trigger like everyone else has to do.

[Daekar]

Khobai, on 16 April 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Completely disagree. Autocannon balance is still a HUGE mess. The AC20 does more damage than the AC10 at the AC10s optimum range, making the AC10 largely obsolete. Likewise the AC5 has a longer range now than the AC2 which is the complete opposite of how Battletech should be. Ideally each autocannon should have its own range niche where its dominant over the other three autocannons.

1) Autocannons need their max ranges reduced from x3 to x2 (or possibly x2.5 if x2 is too severe). The AC5 also needs it range reduced from 620m to 540m so it no longer significantly outdamages the AC2 at the AC2s optimum range.

2) Autocannon heat needs to be normalized. AC5s need their heat increased to 1.5, because every other weapon (besides gauss which was nerfed HARD) generates heat, so its about time AC5s generate heat too. Additionally, AC2 heat needs to be reduced to 0.6. That normalizes ALL autocannon heat at 0.3 heat per 1 damage.

3) PGI needs to balance PPCs once and for all instead of allowing overpowered PPCs to continually dictate game balance changes for other weapons like Gauss and ACs. Its ridiculous that other weapons have to keep paying the price for PPCs being too good. The most absurd example being the AC10 projectile speed nerf.

Quoted for rationality and logical thinking. PGI, Please consider this proposal in your future balancing efforts.

[FaceRipt]

R Razor, on 16 April 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

That's a riot........overpowered PPC's I mean...........Autocannons DOMINATE this game at the moment.......they don't get too hot, they carry MORE than enough ammo and the pinpoint FLD setup PGI uses favors them IMMENSELY when you factor in their ROF.

PPC's run WAY too hot on most maps to compete with a Dakka mech, and lasers spread damage while running hot and don't stand a chance of competing with them.

Normalize autocannon range and heat, THEN BRING BACK Repair and Re-arm costs to eliminate the spamming of ballistics and cause folks to actually AIM and squeeze the trigger like everyone else has to do.

I find your post quite funny since almost evrytime I hear for ac's nerf there is usually a ppc or 2 combined with them in the build (poptarts hello). I am also ON the Side that even though ppc's run hot they are STILL TOO GOOD. PPC's are the offender here not ac's.

I mean come on 3 slots 7 tons 10 damage 4 sec cd's for ppc and erppc

atleast with the auto cannons as the damage goes up the weight and amount of slots increases.

PPC'S HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST problem with weapon balance since cb.

you wana balance it, just like they figured gauss need a charge time it is my belief that ppc's should have to carry the same behavior. IF ya gotta charge up energy to shoot a slug, then why does a ppc not need to charge up to shoot. IMO it makes even more sense that a ppc would need to do this.

Edited by FaceRipt, 16 April 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[R Razor]

PPC's do 10 damage not 15.....maybe you need to educate yourself before you take a side.

[FaceRipt]

R Razor, on 16 April 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

PPC's do 10 damage not 15.....maybe you need to educate yourself before you take a side.

there happy mistypes do happen

Edited by FaceRipt, 16 April 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[Daekar]

FaceRipt, on 16 April 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

I find your post quite funny since almost evrytime I hear for ac's nerf there is usually a ppc or 2 combined with them in the build (poptarts hello). I am also ON the Side that even though ppc's run hot they are STILL TOO GOOD. PPC's are the offender here not ac's.

I mean come on 3 slots 7 tons 15 damage 4 sec cd's for ppc and erppc

atleast with the auto cannons as the damage goes up the weight and amount of slots increases.

PPC'S HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST problem with weapon balance since cb.

you wana balance it, just like they figured gauss need a charge time it is my belief that ppc's should have to carry the same behavior. IF ya gotta charge up energy to shoot a slug, then why does a ppc not need to charge up to shoot. IMO it makes even more sense that a ppc would need to do this.

1) PPCs and ERPPCs do 10 damage, not 15. Only CERPPCs do 15.
2) In lore, PPCs did have to charge (at least they did in the books about Grayson Carlyle and the GDL)
3) PPCs are the natural high-heat complement to low-heat ACs. The problem with nerfing them too hard is that it renders mechs that rely on energy hardpoints unable to field pinpoint damage. If ACs were changed to burst fire then the PPC could be similarly altered somehow (split damage among locations excepting the head is the usual suggestion), but if that doesn't happen they really can't mess with PPCs too much more.

Edited by Daekar, 16 April 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[FaceRipt]

Daekar, on 16 April 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

1) PPCs and ERPPCs do 10 damage, not 15. Only CERPPCs do 15.
2) In lore, PPCs did have to charge (at least they did in the books about Grayson Carlyle and the GDL)
3) PPCs are the natural high-heat complement to low-heat ACs. The problem with meeting them too hard is that it renders mechs that rely on energy hardpoints any way to field pinpoint damage. If ACs were changed to burst fire then the PPC could be similarly altered somehow (split damage among locations excepting the head is the usual suggestion), but if that doesn't happen they really can't mess with PPCs too much more.

yeah I fixed the damage in my post, was a mistype, not tryin to mislead people reading.

IT's just you always hear about X ac's paired with ppc's op nerf the ac's.

The balance of this game is just wacky it never quite seems to make sense.

Edited by FaceRipt, 16 April 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Graugger]

AC's need moar nerf in my opinion.
AC/2 - Cooldown - .75 / Heat - 1.25 / Range - 650 / Max Range - 975 / Speed - 1400
AC/5 - Cooldown - 2 / Heat - 2.5 / Range - 500 / Max Range - 750 / Speed - 1050
AC/10 - Cooldown - .3.5 / Heat - 6 / Range - 400 / Max Range - 600 / Speed - 825
AC/20 - Cooldown - 6 / Heat - 10 / Range - 250 / Max Range - 375 / Speed - 625

PPCs need a buff especially the regular one since it has a minimum range and high heat, perhaps a faster recycle than the ER or both need longer range?

PPC - Range - 90-750 / Max Range - 1500
ERPPC - Range 900 / Max Range - 1800

[FupDup]

Graugger, on 16 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

AC's need moar nerf in my opinion.
AC/2 - Cooldown - .75 / Heat - 1.25 / Range - 650 / Max Range - 975 / Speed - 1400
AC/5 - Cooldown - 2 / Heat - 2.5 / Range - 500 / Max Range - 750 / Speed - 1050
AC/10 - Cooldown - .3.5 / Heat - 6 / Range - 400 / Max Range - 600 / Speed - 825
AC/20 - Cooldown - 6 / Heat - 10 / Range - 250 / Max Range - 375 / Speed - 625

PPCs need a buff especially the regular one since it has a minimum range and high heat, perhaps a faster recycle than the ER or both need longer range?

PPC - Range - 90-750 / Max Range - 1500
ERPPC - Range 900 / Max Range - 1800

The AC/2 just got smashed by the nerfhammer Mjolnir hard enough as it is. The AC/5 has never been a truly good weapon, it just happens to make a nice pair with PPCs due to the Gauss nerf. The AC/10 is sub-par right now. The AC/20 is supposed to wreck your face up close, that's why it's so heavy and bulky and short ranged.

PPCs are one of the best weapons in the game right now. Buffing them now would be utterly batshit insane. The ERPPC isn't quite as good as the regular PPC, but it's still a functional and effective weapon.