156 replies to this topic

[crossflip]

Okay. I've lurked on this forum for a couple of weeks and as a new player, new to MWO and new to Mechwarrior as a franchise, this is my take on the issue. People have different ways of having fun. You might greatly enjoy going ironman and condemning an even playing field in favor of context and challenge. Others, however, do other things to have fun.

For example. I do not play long range classes in any game, period. Naturally I pick a mech designed for brawler builds. Only a few days ago I elited my first mech, the HBK-4H. The games that culminate in intense close range brawls I find extremely enjoyable. However, those are few and far in between. There is a tendency toward long range so called "Direct fire support" builds that are really just direct fire builds. I've come to understand that the generally perceived most effective method is sniping. When I think of the meta, I think pinpoint, frontloaded, long-range heavy damage that exposes you as little as possible.

I don't like games of silhouette peek-a-boo across entire maps. I hate Alpine Peaks and River City because of the way they often end up as long range poking games atop the hill at H9 or across the river. And need I even mention poptarts?

I do, however, love the slugfests that often break out on the Crimson Strait or Frozen City. I like being that in-your-face berserk game-flusher. I try to place myself at the frontlines whenever I can, and sadly that means I often get popped like fish in a barrel from foes beyond my effective range. Once I get within 400m however, I am a force to be reckoned with and I have won more than my share of close range engagements sometimes even with multiple enemies focusing on me.

This is my best match so far. I had good luck and a good team, but I still outdid myself. Though it pales in comparison to the 1000+ damage I see posted often, I'm proud.


What I'm trying to say is, yes, you're right, we as a community do complain excessively and unnecessarily, but I still think we deserve a game where every role is more or less rewarded. As far as I'm concerned there's not much that's OP or UP, but some things are less fun to use than others for different reasons. It's good to look at these things in terms of fun. This is a game, after all. Btw flamers are fun, idc if they're useless bcos they look beastly

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

but that's not war.

in a tank skirmish obviously infantry will have armor busting rocket launchers, missiles that make tanks go boom! even in world war two they had explosive packages that could shred the treads off the tanks

NO general is gonna give their infantry unit just small caliber weapons and tell them to get out there and fight the tanks, just don't happen. it's counter productive it's conducive to you losing your forces.. it's suicide; it's dumb.

in the same line of thinking, a tank game with uneffective weapons is dumb. it's great if you sacrifice firepower for speed in a light mech, but weapons should still be deadly; no insta win button just because your ride has the right hardpoint and the enemy had to do with lasers; if it was that way in real life the generals would retire that underperforming armament;

what would happen if this was real life the generals would have just kept all ballistic mechs for fighting and the laser ones as 2nd line defense at best if not stripped them for parts, maybe done away with LRM and SRM also altogether; just kept the LRM turrets and upped their arsenal to lrm20's. why do you need em to move?

your argument doesn't hold up. armored units in the game need to be competitive as they should be in real life.
if you're not gonna fix a weapon system then retire it. let's just keep the jager, victor and the phract

if you're giving the player choices then have those choices be meaningful.
otherwise it's just simply unfair in the game, as it would be sending a soldier with a pistol on a battle of sniper rifles in real life.

LOL... you are thinking that an infantry unit will have the luxury of knowing the enemy tank line is engaging them at 0930 on Thursday April 17th! Doesn't always happen that way.

Its more like:
Command: Echo company. Beware, enemy Tank Column in your 20.

Echo Company: BOOM BOOM BOOM Dakka dakka dakka! Command. Echo Company... No S*it! Over.

[AlmightyAeng]

crossflip, on 17 April 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Okay. I've lurked on this forum for a couple of weeks and as a new player, new to MWO and new to Mechwarrior as a franchise, this is my take on the issue. People have different ways of having fun. You might greatly enjoy going ironman and condemning an even playing field in favor of context and challenge. Others, however, do other things to have fun.

For example. I do not play long range classes in any game, period. Naturally I pick a mech designed for brawler builds. Only a few days ago I elited my first mech, the HBK-4H. The games that culminate in intense close range brawls I find extremely enjoyable. However, those are few and far in between. There is a tendency toward long range so called "Direct fire support" builds that are really just direct fire builds. I've come to understand that the generally perceived most effective method is sniping. When I think of the meta, I think pinpoint, frontloaded, long-range heavy damage that exposes you as little as possible.

I don't like games of silhouette peek-a-boo across entire maps. I hate Alpine Peaks and River City because of the way they often end up as long range poking games atop the hill at H9 or across the river. And need I even mention poptarts?

I do, however, love the slugfests that often break out on the Crimson Strait or Frozen City. I like being that in-your-face berserk game-flusher. I try to place myself at the frontlines whenever I can, and sadly that means I often get popped like fish in a barrel from foes beyond my effective range. Once I get within 400m however, I am a force to be reckoned with and I have won more than my share of close range engagements sometimes even with multiple enemies focusing on me.

This is my best match so far. I had good luck and a good team, but I still outdid myself. Though it pales in comparison to the 1000+ damage I see posted often, I'm proud.

What I'm trying to say is, yes, you're right, we as a community do complain excessively and unnecessarily, but I still think we deserve a game where every role is more or less rewarded. As far as I'm concerned there's not much that's OP or UP, but some things are less fun to use than others for different reasons. It's good to look at these things in terms of fun. This is a game, after all. Btw flamers are fun, idc if they're useless bcos they look beastly

Nice game, and a nicely worded post to go along with it You'd likely enjoy the Firebrand I used, then, actually. While the 2xAC5's give me a nice distance weapon, the real meat of my damage is within 400m with the 6 Medium Lasers. They're completely ineffectual past 540m.

I pair the two systems because I don't enjoy being unable to engage a target I can see because my weapons don't have enough range, while very much enjoying a striker/flanker role within 400 meters.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

LOL... you are thinking that an infantry unit will have the luxury of knowing the enemy tank line is engaging them at 0930 on Thursday April 17th! Doesn't always happen that way.

Its more like:
Command: Echo company. Beware, enemy Tank Column in your 20.

Echo Company: BOOM BOOM BOOM Dakka dakka dakka! Command. Echo Company... No S*it! Over.

no it's not like that. it's not like that AT ALL.

in a urban setting you would send in your infantry with shotguns and other urban tactics. tanks won't be able to move around the narrow streets. this is a very very common urban scenario.
in a mountain setting where the tracks won't be useful you will send in snipers to hide around the bushes and ambushers and set up booby traps, like it was in vietnam.
in a PLAINS you OBVIOUSLY expect tanks. that's why in desert storm and other desert theaters it's about the tanks.

THAT'S HOW IT WORKS

i come from a long military background and i know for a fact this is how it is. in a huge plains if you're not fighting aboriginals you're gonna expect some armored vehicles, period.

but if you wanna do your research then go ahead then come back here to say i was right

the general does not look at the map for a theater of operations and just says;
alright lets get 5 of each! or: lets just let the individual soldiers choose if they want to bring a knife only.

NO! if you're going to be engaging tanks you would know it in advance, you really REALLY would!

and it's the general's responsibility to prepare the available weapons for that, and it's in the same way pgi's responsibility not to send players ill prepared for engaging other players, that's all there is to it.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 17 April 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

no it's not like that. it's not like that AT ALL.

in a urban setting you would send in your infantry with shotguns. tanks won't be able to move around the narrow streets.
in a mountain setting where the tracks won't be useful you will send in snipers to hide around the bushes and ambushers
in a PLAINS you OBVIOUSLY expect tanks. that's why in desert storm and other desert theaters it's about the tanks.

THAT'S HOW IT WORKS

i come from a long military background and i know for a fact this is how it is. in a huge plains if you're not fighting aboriginals you're gonna expect some armored vehicles, period.

You are telling a retired Infantry Marine how its done???
Really?

[Mazzyplz]

what should i salute you or some crap? provide a better argument or deal with it.

what is a marine anyhow, a pawn? i'm talking higher ups here, you probably didn't make it very far to know how strategy works; you pick what your forces are taking

you upgrade your armament to compete or just plain retire underperforming weaponry, that's how it works.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

no it's not like that. it's not like that AT ALL.

in a urban setting you would send in your infantry with shotguns. tanks won't be able to move around the narrow streets.

Everywhere from the National Socialist German Worker's Party-invaded French towns to urban centers of the recent Middle-eastern conflicts would like to say hello.

That said, can we get back on topic regarding:

1) Current feel of game balance?
2) Are people's complaints too hyperbolic?
3) 'Stacked' games due to factors vs. Skill level?
3) Congratulating Badger on his badass game?

Thanks

Edited by Ghost Badger, 17 April 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

you have to excuse me if i am not instantly impressed, this type of command strategy has been around for thousands of years, since chariot warfare, nothing to do with you crawling under barbed wires 10 or 5 years ago, i really couldn't give a rat's behind about it

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

You are telling a retired Infantry Marine how its done???
Really?

Knowing people who are in the military apparently lets you know more than the people who actually are/were in the military. Internet ArmChair Generals are the salvation of future warfare.

Ain't picking a side with you or Mazzyplz, in general, as a person who has never served, himself (though who's entire family is or was active duty Navy and Air Force, cept Gramps who was Army Air Corp in the big one), I can only go by my knowledge of combat tactics in Civilian (law enforcement) arenas. But if I got to choose who might know more about a subject, I would rather listen to an Infantry Marine about how it's done, than someone who has all 4 seasons of Top Shot on their DVR. (yeah, I know, hyperbole, but hyperbole is great for making points)

I don't bow and scrape just because someone did serve, but I sure in heck feel they deserve more respect for actually fighting for their convictions than you are showing Mazz. Seriously, reading history books, and watching the Military History Channel, ain't gonna make you an expert. The grunt with boots on the ground KNOWS his loadout and what his brothers on the ground are equipped with, plus the tactics that will be employed.

Equipping Urban Combat Units with Shotguns is not strategy, but fantasy. They are packing m4 carbines, usually with m203 40mm grenade launchers attached (or whatever the current equivalent may be) with a FEW possibly carrying the m26 modular shotgun underslung their .5.56 barrel. THAT shotgun is used primarily for breaching, not street sweeping. You may have a specialist with a Benelli M4, but you sure ain't got the whole detachment with them, as they are utterly lacking in armor penetration, range combat capability and versatility.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 April 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

stuff

To be honest, name me one REALLY good and proper thing they've done to this game?

stuff

They made MWO. That not good enough for you..

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

what should i salute you or some crap? provide a better argument or deal with it.

what is a marine anyhow, a pawn? i'm talking higher ups here, you probably didn't make it very far to know how strategy works; you pick what your forces are taking

You probably never pounded boots to know you only have so much weight you will carry and You will probably not have what you need when you need it. It's easy to be Higher up... you never have a dirty butt. How long did it take the Brass to get Our soldiers Proper armor for Hum Vees in the Middle East? Did our fighting men land with it? Or did the Brass drop the ball and put the men in a bad spot?

Also I was enlisted and never earned a Metal of honor... so no you don't need to salute.

[Fut]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Meta right now...is AC's linked with PPC's.

His build is like JUST under meta, because you have 2 AC5's with 2 Large Lasers.

It's not meta Per'sae, but it's built around that concept.

The MG's are so light weight, I'm not really factoring them in, kind of like when a Highlander had some Streak's as back-up weapons.

Jagers themselves are pretty metatastical to begin with it, so it's pretty hard to play that mech in a non-meta fashion.

I really feel like the term "Meta" is being incredibly over used on these forums - and over used in strange strange ways too.

[Mazzyplz]

Ghost Badger, on 17 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Everywhere from the National Socialist German Worker's Party-invaded French towns to urban centers of the recent Middle-eastern conflicts would like to say hello.

That said, can we get back on topic regarding:

1) Current feel of game balance?
2) Are people's complaints too hyperbolic?
3) 'Stacked' games due to factors vs. Skill level?
3) Congratulating Badger on his badass game?

Thanks

oh so i'm wrong?

here;

let me know at what minute the tanks abandon the open ground and go into the narrow streets please!!!




how many tanks do you see in this urban training video?



beach please!!!

OBVIOUSLY you need to move the tanks up to the city square, but that's not really what the fighting is about inside the houses and corridors and back streets. they're mostly there supporting


oh and yea call me an armchair general whatever; you think that bothers me? i actually don't hold the common soldier in a particulary high regard any more than the next person. it's good that you know how to be an infantry dude, shoot and throw grenades and stuff. there is no infantry in this game did you know that? and the relevant strategies are on a book anyone can pick up -
historical figure hannibal was no less of a general than the romans because he was a slave, nor were the athenians really inferior to the spartans because they didn't live for warfare 24/7. they actually held their own in a fight pretty damn well and their clashes often ended in a stalemate, that lasted for years. that's a misconception many military people seem to have.
if being in the military magically gave you thinking skills then all the chess grandmasters would be former troops. or all of the foot soldiers would become a general; but whatever

Edited by Mazzyplz, 17 April 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

stuff

or in titanfall do people ask the developer for the ability to play as the cannon fodder????

I DIDN'T THINK SO

No one asks to be CF in MWO...

Question really is. Is there cannon fodder on the battlefields of TitanFall? I believe the answer is an emphatic YES indeed.

Did you have a point btw?

[TimePeriod]

There will always be meta, lets just leave it be at that.

If people decide to meta then that's that. We can't force them to play "our" way so we will just have to trust PGI (slight shudder) to balance out the weapons as best as they see fit. A new meta will arrive which is better then the current meta and so the wheel turns.

I will continue to build my own stuff, maybe I will get pummeld by the current meta or maybe I will not. If I decide to let it get to me then why would I continue playing?

Play the game and enjoy all the wonderful F2P elements. In the end was that not why you are here?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Almond Brown, on 17 April 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

They made MWO. That not good enough for you..

Actually that's revisionist history. Smith and Tinker made MW:O.

PGI inheritted it, and then squandered it.

The base of the game is great, it's all the stuff PGI has done that has mucked it up.

Haven't you wondered how they could be so incompetant, yet certain things work so well?

Fut, on 17 April 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I really feel like the term "Meta" is being incredibly over used on these forums - and over used in strange strange ways too.

Not really.

Meta is very simply, put as much pinpoint FLD damage as you can into a mech.

This normally means multiple AC's and PPC's.

There are variations on the meta, PopTarts being the most known/popular. 4 PPC Stalkers before Ghost Heat were another.

As you build a mech, basically ultimate Meta right now is a pair of AC/5's (or UAC5's) and a pair of PPC's with Jump Jets, then there is a sliding scale. As you move down the scale, it requires more and more skill to be competitive.

So for instance.

2x AC/5 2x PPC + JJ
3x AC/5 2x PPC

Would be pure meta.

2x AC/5 1x ER LL (A common SHD build)
2x AC/5 2x LL (The build earlier)

Is a deviation on the Meta. Less FLD, and has to face the target longer to put damage in (Lasers)

4x AC/5
2x AC/5 2x AC/2

Also a deviation on the Meta, but has drawbacks of less FLD, facing target, and pure ammo. Less heat though and more DAKKA.

After that you have non-meta boats (Lasers/SRMs/LRMs).

And then you have Franken-mechs.

The most popular Franken-mech is of course the SHD-2D2 with the AC/5 2x MLas and 4 SSRM2's.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 17 April 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

youtubes

WE got an expert here!


So how many youtubes do we need to cherry pick to "prove" our point?

Mazzy. Yes. You are wrong. Are there exceptions to the rule? Yup. But that is what they are. Stop while you are ahead. (Not that you ever do)

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 April 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

The most popular Franken-mech is of course the SHD-2D2 with the AC/5 2x MLas and 4 SSRM2's.

It's better with a UAC

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

WE got an expert here! So how many youtubes do we need to cherry pick to "prove" our point? Mazzy. Yes. You are wrong. Are there exceptions to the rule? Yup. But that is what they are. Stop while you are ahead. (Not that you ever do) It's better with a UAC

Yeah, I got tired of typing at the end there and once I'd typed AC/5 decided I was going to be lazy.

I am going to try a 2D 3 with MLas, 3 SRM/2's and a UAC5 when they go for sale for C-bills.

[Trauglodyte]

I'll say this and then leave the thread alone:

• As use changes, so does the need to balance/rebalance
  
• What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander

These are the two truths that have plagued all games. When gaming companies come up with the capital to create a game, they first develop a story board with all of their ideas for how they want the game to play. From there, they put in the coding and then finally release the game. They sit back with smiles on their faces and enjoy their creation much like Doctor Frankenstein. The truth is, though, that their creation, or rather the player base, are the unforeseen monster. Because, and this happens with every game, the player base gets a hold of the game and finds all of those errors that the devs never saw coming. We abuse it, bend it, sometimes break it, etc. At that point, the devs are forced to make changes to reign us in or to get the idea back on track. Sometimes, they're ok with what we've done but they're often not happy and struggle to put things in order. You see a lot of that now and in past MW games with micro laser boating, jump sniping, wall climbing, etc.

The other part that is problematic is who do you balance around and under what conditions? I'm not the best jump sniper in the world nor am I the worst. I'm not the best user of any of the available mechs or weapons but I'm not a bottom feeder either. I make builds around how I'm comfortable playing and I try my best to squeeze every inch of gaming juice out of those builds. I succeed as often as I fail and I'm as glorious as I am stupid. The point is, I'm not going to be as great as the best in the best build but I can make it work. Does PGI, or any other game development company, balance around me or the people that are cutting edge great? As Joe said, he sucks in some builds and isn't very good at some weapons but he's ok with other stuff. The AC2 was terrible in TT, bad in the opening game, and bad now but some people make it work because they're great on a given platform or in specific situations. Is it broken because it is bad or because those select few people are good with it?

Back to Badger's point, enjoy the game and don't worry so much about what is and isn't broken. But, more to the point, be sure about your intents and be bias free when you say something isn't working. Often times, you're eyes are closed too tight to see the truth of the situation or the current game environment has simply not calmed down enough for the truth to come out.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 17 April 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

oh so i'm wrong?

here;

let me know at what minute the tanks abandon the open ground and go into the narrow streets please!!!




how many tanks do you see in this urban training video?



beach please!!!

OBVIOUSLY you need to move the tanks up to the city square, but that's not really what the fighting is about inside the houses and corridors and back streets. they're mostly there supporting

When did the small arms kill the Tanks in that 13 minutes?

Also... I saw three in my training, But the Top Brass had to spend the money to make sure they got all the money they wanted next fiscal year.

I also ha many a training session where the only ammo I had was the word BANG! And Our Trip to an LZ to protect was us on a football field waving our hands over head saying butta butta butta!

Your High command relatives ever share those stories with ya?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 April 2014 - 10:48 AM.