106 replies to this topic

[L A V A]

WVAnonymous, on 01 May 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

With 3/3/3/3 I think lights in general may get revisited, because by definition 1/4 of the players will be in them.

Well, the 3/3/3/3 didn't go over so well.

Perhaps if they go with 0/1/3/8 they won't have any problems.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 01 May 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Go play a Locust and then you can complain. Nobody cares about Ravens cause they're driven by cowards that don't have the common sense to upgrading to the more broken cowardly mech, the Spider.

If you want to meta for lights, you're gonna want either a Jenner or a Firestarter. Both of them heavily out-gun the Spider (Spider has what, like 3 Medium Lasers or a single ERPPC most of the time?), and if you avoid enemy firing lines well enough then you survive basically just as long.

[RealityCube]

So I did some tests in private match today.

These images will detail the results but here's a TL:DR- The extra area of the legs is mostly on the inside of the raven legs and only a little bit on the front and back of the legs. The worst part, and I'm revealing a massive weakness of the Raven here, in the hopes that some dev will see it and change it. The last picture will have an area outlined in green, that part of the mech is considered rearCT instead of CT. This can enable enemy mechs to kill you even if you're looking directly at them, and there's nothing you can do about this. Forgive me Raven pilots.




http://i.imgur.com/WybIO6a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PVtPDBK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/imEHqxN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lP5Xf7k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eCT8y7s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Uz7V2mg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ax96HNF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gczGBev.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/R3hmCLt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rx9tZMF.jpg


Why?

[FupDup]

Cyner, on 01 May 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

So I did some tests in private match today.

These images will detail the results but here's a TL:DR- The extra area of the legs is mostly on the inside of the raven legs and only a little bit on the front and back of the legs. The worst part, and I'm revealing a massive weakness of the Raven here, in the hopes that some dev will see it and change it. The last picture will have an area outlined in green, that part of the mech is considered rearCT instead of CT. This can enable enemy mechs to kill you even if you're looking directly at them, and there's nothing you can do about this. Forgive me Raven pilots.




http://i.imgur.com/WybIO6a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PVtPDBK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/imEHqxN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lP5Xf7k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eCT8y7s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Uz7V2mg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ax96HNF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gczGBev.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/R3hmCLt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rx9tZMF.jpg


Why?

For the part in green, isn't that just the Raven's butt? Having the butt count as rear CT instead of front makes sense, unless I'm looking at it wrong.

Otherwise, nice tests. It finally, conclusively confirms the long-known rumor of oversized leg hitboxes. Now I just wonder if the Lolcust suffers the same fate (you don't have to test this).

[RealityCube]

The problem is that it makes the Raven the only mech you can core out the rear CT of, while they are looking directly at you. That area needs to be assigned to front CT like every other mech. No other mech has rear CT exposed like that, heck... if they aim right they can core your back out even if you are just circle strafing them. Absolutely horrible.

[aniviron]

Cyner, on 01 May 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

So I did some tests in private match today.

These images will detail the results but here's a TL:DR- The extra area of the legs is mostly on the inside of the raven legs and only a little bit on the front and back of the legs. The worst part, and I'm revealing a massive weakness of the Raven here, in the hopes that some dev will see it and change it. The last picture will have an area outlined in green, that part of the mech is considered rearCT instead of CT. This can enable enemy mechs to kill you even if you're looking directly at them, and there's nothing you can do about this. Forgive me Raven pilots.




http://i.imgur.com/WybIO6a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PVtPDBK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/imEHqxN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lP5Xf7k.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eCT8y7s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Uz7V2mg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ax96HNF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gczGBev.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/R3hmCLt.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rx9tZMF.jpg


Why?

That evidence is pretty damning. It might not look like much, but here, I photoshopped the legs to be as big as they would be if the visuals matched the hitbox. It's pretty alarming; the transformations range from 125% larger to 140%.

Normal vs Real
Normal vs Real
Normal vs Real
Normal vs Real

So yeah, those proportions would be about right- if the Raven were an assault mech. This is ******* maddening. If I had twitter, I'd say mean things to Paul and post these to make some changes happen.

[El Bandito]

Cyner, on 22 April 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

A long time ago, in a beta, far far away... The Raven 3L was a dominant force in the galaxy.

Gotta say I ENJOY seeing the 3L pilots suffer for the sins of their fathers. Eventually the leg boxes might get fixed, but I don't mind the eventuality is pushed back a bit.

As Scout says, "Not so tough now are ya? ARE YA?".

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2014 - 10:13 PM.

[aniviron]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

Gotta say I ENJOY seeing the 3L pilots suffer for the sins of their fathers. Eventually the leg boxes might get fixed, but I don't mind the eventuality is pushed back a bit.

As Scout says, "Not so tough now are ya? ARE YA?".

Nothing against you personally (I actually tend to quite like your posts) but **** THIS ATTITUDE. **** THIS SO MUCH.
This attitude is why SRMs are garbage and will always be garbage. This attitude is why Awesomes will always be worthless. This attitude is why the CPLT-A1, HBK-4P, and so many other variants are terrible. There are tons and tons of mechs and weapons and systems that were really good a year or two ago that got nerfed really really hard, and when the game changed Paul and all the players decided, "Nah, I'm fine with that being awful, there was this one time six months ago when that was annoying." This ******* shit right here is why half of the weapons and mechs in this game are ******* useless.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 01 May 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Nothing against you personally (I actually tend to quite like your posts) but **** THIS ATTITUDE. **** THIS SO MUCH.
This attitude is why SRMs are garbage and will always be garbage. This attitude is why Awesomes will always be worthless. This attitude is why the CPLT-A1, HBK-4P, and so many other variants are terrible. There are tons and tons of mechs and weapons and systems that were really good a year or two ago that got nerfed really really hard, and when the game changed Paul and all the players decided, "Nah, I'm fine with that being awful, there was this one time six months ago when that was annoying." This ******* shit right here is why half of the weapons and mechs in this game are ******* useless.

You mean:

Why can't we have nice things?

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 01 May 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

If you want to meta for lights, you're gonna want either a Jenner or a Firestarter. Both of them heavily out-gun the Spider (Spider has what, like 3 Medium Lasers or a single ERPPC most of the time?), and if you avoid enemy firing lines well enough then you survive basically just as long.

The Raven-3L's primary usage on the meta end is primarily 2 ERL... sniping away at targets that aren't skilled or can react fast enough to counter you... especially if you have cover for your legs.

With that said, I would actually hope people would test out all mech hitboxes to see if there are errors/flaws in their makeup. I'm pretty sure the "Nerfmaster" would "love" to take a look.

[El Bandito]

aniviron, on 01 May 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Nothing against you personally (I actually tend to quite like your posts) but **** THIS ATTITUDE. **** THIS SO MUCH. This attitude is why SRMs are garbage and will always be garbage. This attitude is why Awesomes will always be worthless. This attitude is why the CPLT-A1, HBK-4P, and so many other variants are terrible. There are tons and tons of mechs and weapons and systems that were really good a year or two ago that got nerfed really really hard, and when the game changed Paul and all the players decided, "Nah, I'm fine with that being awful, there was this one time six months ago when that was annoying." This ******* shit right here is why half of the weapons and mechs in this game are ******* useless.

I don't recall LBX and Pulse Lasers as well as Trebbies and Awesomes ever being OP. Nerfs are not the only reason why many of the stuff we got are sub par.

Personally, I'm still enjoying the A1. It is the most successful mech I ever piloted, both pre and post stat wipe.

Anyway, I still think the Raven players who piloted the 3L during its broken days (same with 5D) are the lowest scumbags of this planet, and that won't go away for a while. It's personal feeling.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2014 - 11:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

I don't recall LBX and Pulse Lasers as well as Trebbies and Awesomes ever being OP. Nerfs are not the only reason why many of the stuff we got are sub par.

Well, Paul warned us of the Trebuchet meta... and I'm still looking for it.



If the Awesome ever cried tears of joy, please tell the Pretty Baby I was sorry for telling her that she needed to get on a diet....

Those torsos make her butt look small...

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Well, Paul warned us of the Trebuchet meta... and I'm still looking for it. If the Awesome ever cried tears of joy, please tell the Pretty Baby I was sorry for telling her that she needed to get on a diet.... Those torsos make her butt look small...

Paul also warned us of the SRMageddon if SRMs are ever buffed to 2.5. I think that's crock of shit, judging from the current meta, the lack of SRM range and splash, as well as the spread. Sadly, HSR for SRMs is still not improved enough to put that to test. Only way one can make SRMs work well, is to chain fire SRM4s with Artemis.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

Paul also warned us of the SRMageddon if SRMs are ever buffed to 2.5. I think that's crock of shit, judging from the current meta, the lack of SRM range and splash, as well as the spread. Sadly, HSR for SRMs is still not improved enough to put that to test. Only way one can make SRMs work well, is to chain fire SRM4s with Artemis.

Well, I'm a fortunate beneficiary of the SRM fixes (not this current patch, but the one previous to it), but I feel bad for others not experiencing SRM bliss.

[aniviron]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

I don't recall LBX and Pulse Lasers as well as Trebbies and Awesomes ever being OP. Nerfs are not the only reason why many of the stuff we got are sub par.

Personally, I'm still enjoying the A1. It is the most successful mech I ever piloted, both pre and post stat wipe.

Anyway, I still think the Raven players who piloted the 3L during its broken days (same with 5D) are the lowest scumbags of this planet, and that won't go away for a while. It's personal feeling.

There was actually a (brief) time when Awesomes were quite good. The reason that the Awesome has such a tiny engine limit? Yeah, that was because the thing that made them good was the ability to put a massive engine on it and boat lasers, back before engine size restrictions. It was hit hard with the nerf bat thanks to that one month.

I will give you that pulse lasers and LBx aren't the product of over reactions; still, while not all problems are thanks to refusing to correct an overnerf when the game changes, quite a significant share of the game's problems are.

While I'm actually inclined to agree with you about players who piloted 3Ls and 5Ds during the days of no hit detection, punishing the Ravens and Spiders for that now is insane. The people who ran those mechs when they were big did so because they were the most powerful and easiest-to-use builds at the time. Once they got nerfed, all the people who were running them because they were cheap stopped using them, and only dedicated Raven and Spider pilots are left. If you want to be mad at the cheap people who exploit broken game mechanics, get mad at everyone who has been running HGNs and VTRs; that's what those people are using now.

I just think it's silly that you hate people piloting Ravens when I can almost guarantee you that almost every single person who currently drives a Raven did not do so back when they were popular.

[El Bandito]

aniviron, on 02 May 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

I just think it's silly that you hate people piloting Ravens when I can almost guarantee you that almost every single person who currently drives a Raven did not do so back when they were popular.

I know that, hence I said "sins of their fathers". It was just that personal.

Bit like my attitude towards my southern neighbors, I suppose.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2014 - 02:17 AM.

[kesuga7]

Cyner, on 22 April 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Seriously though, fix the hitboxes. It's just aggravating to get both legs blown off by LRM's before my torso armor is even orange. I've also watched myself be shot in the front CT, only to get my back blown out instead of taking any damage to the front.

yup iv had quite a few times where im seeing a ppc hit my front torso yet core my back

so lames

[Tahribator]

There were many threads about this, but I think this one is a great one with lots of evidence how bad the Raven hitboxes are. Let's keep this on the front page until it gets the deserved attention.

That being said, I can't agree more with the OP. From a balance viewpoint, the Raven was incredibly broken until ECM was gradually nerfed. Ending with the SSRM fix that stopped it from targeting CT only and with the introduction of ECM neutering capabilities of the BAP.Seriously, you could solo brawly Atlases with a Raven and they could do nothing about it. Heck, even a COM-2D could do it without breaking a sweat. What was actually broken was the ECM and SSRM targeting and the Raven was just the best platform to exploit it because it had more tonnage.

The Raven was also the subject of the "hitboxes are broken" argument for a long time. Partly because how broken it was balance wise and because of its geometry. Its torso is very compact, making targeting a single component very difficult. All of these were exacerbated by how popular it was. I'd say the "hard to hit" argument was baseless, it was a time of no HSR for any weapon where you had to lead for where the target was going to be according to your ping.

Instead of working on the ECM and SSRM's until HSR was fully implemented, Paul took the easy way and nerfed the Raven legs to the ground. There was much rejoice with people finally being able to kill these beasts left and right. People immediately started switching to Spiders and Commandos for ECM, but "pros" migrated to Jenners. Problem solved, temporarily. Now that the balance is in a somewhat good state, there's no reason to keep its humongous leg hitboxes. I think Raven is a great chassis, with the non 3L variants being great big mech harassers, but they just cannot afford to get close because they're essentially on a leg timer.

I would also like to remind people that this exact "nerf" was happened with the Spiders recently. Ever since the Spider started getting popular after the SSRMs and Ravens were nerfed, people started complaining that its hitboxes were broken. It was actually the combination of a bad netcode and the thinnest torso in this game that made it such a hard kill, not to mention the extreme mobility. What happened? Paul reduced the "hitbox complexity" again, oversizing its legs, but not on the order of what the Raven got. What we have right now is the exact Spider we had that people thought it was problematic, but easier to leg.

I would understand simple and temporary band-aid fixes like these, but when the actual problem is solved, you need to revert these changes. If you cannot revert them because you can't embarass yourself with writing "Raven leg hitboxes unnerfed because the HSR is fully working and people can actually hit things" in your patch notes, then you should have explained your reasoning better other than saying "reduced hitbox complexity" in the first place. Otherwise, I would question your competence as a game designer.

Edited by Tahribator, 02 May 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[L A V A]

As the majority of players can't hit the broad side of a barn, I doubt they will do this anytime soon.

Meanwhile, the greatest danger for a light pilot remains friendly fire.

[Clit Beastwood]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 30 April 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Most people skip leg day, dunno wtf this guy was doin.

LEG PRESSES, BRAH. GET PUMPED.