227 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Haakon Magnusson, on 23 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

actually suggested burst fire as a solution to problem known as clan ultras, I like the way man thinks I hope he will also reduce clanner ranges to about the same as IS.

There have been at least 3 or 4 huge threads about adding a burst to IS AC's to limit the pinpoint damage problem plaguing this game.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 23 April 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Depending on how this plays out, Clan LBX's might be overall better than Clan Ultras. What's known for sure is that no player worth their salt will ever use anything other than slug rounds for their Clan LBX's...

The way to counter that (which would also work for the IS versions, as well) is forced munition mixing for the LB-X ACs - that is, every ton of LB-X ammo comes split between slug and cluster (with a bias toward the latter in the case of odd numbers).

• LB 2-X (75 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/2): 38 cluster, 37 slug
  
• LB 5-X (30 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/5): 15 cluster, 15 slug
  
• LB 10-X (15 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/10): 8 cluster, 7 slug
  
• LB 20-X (7 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/20): 4 cluster, 3 slug

[Haakon Magnusson]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

There have been at least 3 or 4 huge threads about adding a burst to IS AC's to limit the pinpoint damage problem plaguing this game.

Njaa, burst fire is needed for making ultra distinct. Making all weapons dots is plain boring, but I agree acs will need some changes.
Additionally, even if you make clan dam/range equal to IS they will still be better by virtue of weight/crits.

[FupDup]

Strum Wealh, on 23 April 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

The way to counter that (which would also work for the IS versions, as well) is forced munition mixing for the LB-X ACs - that is, every ton of LB-X ammo comes split between slug and cluster (with a bias toward the latter in the case of odd numbers).

• LB 2-X (75 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/2): 38 cluster, 37 slug
  
• LB 5-X (30 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/5): 15 cluster, 15 slug
  
• LB 10-X (15 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/10): 8 cluster, 7 slug
  
• LB 20-X (7 rounds per ton, same as Standard AC/20): 4 cluster, 3 slug

That doesn't change that slugs are superior. It just seems like an arbitrary way to make people have to use garbage equipment. A better solution is to make cluster rounds actually effective in their own right. My own preferred way would be to increase their damage per pellet to ~1.4-1.5. Slugs would still be the more versatile of the two, but then clusters could provide a nice whallop in close quarters.

[Gas Guzzler]

I'm happy about this guys. Clan weapons worse? I don't think so. What's wrong with any of it? Now we get burst fire ACs and normal ACs, best of both worlds. UAC's will still be powerful. Each "round" of UAC20 is a burst of 5 4-damage rounds... but UACs have a rapid fire feature, which mean you will be able to send out another burst of 5 4-damage rounds shortly after, with chance of jamming. Or at least, that is how they should do it. Will be more difficult to use then current ACs but man against a stationary or slow moving target you can unload a lot of damage.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

There have been at least 3 or 4 huge threads about adding a burst to IS AC's to limit the pinpoint damage problem plaguing this game.

This is a non-universally recognized problem. Many people don't have a problem with pinpoint damage, so it is not plaguing this game.

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

That doesn't change that slugs are superior. It just seems like an arbitrary way to make people have to use garbage equipment. A better solution is to make cluster rounds actually effective in their own right. My own preferred way would be to increase their damage per pellet to ~1.4-1.5. Slugs would still be the more versatile of the two, but then clusters could provide a nice whallop in close quarters.

Agreed. Split ammo would be awful. If anything you should just have to pick which ammo you are loading. LBX-slug or LBX-scatter. Would not be opposed to LBX scatter buff.

[Mcgral18]

Haakon Magnusson, on 23 April 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Njaa, burst fire is needed for making ultra distinct. Making all weapons dots is plain boring, but I agree acs will need some changes.
Additionally, even if you make clan dam/range equal to IS they will still be better by virtue of weight/crits.

Hail of dakka is different than DoT. You get low heat high damage, with no control of spread.

Lasers get high heat moderate damage, while being able to control the beam.

We'll see in June how bursts affect dakka. I imagine they'll still be top notch, because of our sorry heatsinks.

[Jonathan Paine]

So.... CW warfare to be put in after everything else is in place. We get clans, before community warfare.

That is ...weird.... the challenge for the different Houses to incorporate new players and turn them into communities and factions will be immense. From PGI this is really a "pick an icon and fight random icons for no reason" approach.

Solution? Bigger dev team? or...

Have someone create a Solaris setting where we can actually have some faction/merc based combat and build some sense of belonging to a side and developing rivalries with other sides.
Have the Clans run endless trials of possession or what not.

After both the Inner Sphere and the Clans exists for most players, then you launch the Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere. Otherwise, CW becomes a novelty item.

[AlmightyAeng]

Putting quotes in italics, because for some reason the forum isn't letting me post anything with /quote atm. My comments in bold.

"On 3rd Person;


3:50 - He's responsible for gameplay, "what's going on in the playerbase". Paul was against 3PV - someone else designed it. 3PV was pressure from outside and inside sources, mentions of "external business partners"
IGP says "Europeans and console gamers demand 3PV!"

5:12 - Restricted viewpoint was his work.
I approve.

8:40 - Paul was the architect of repair and rearm. Wasn't responsible for the C-Bill nerf - was consulted and had concerns that were considered.
Interesting.

On the Heat Scale;

11:25 - Heat scale was all Paul. Original problem was high damage alphas' - all MW's had this issue. "Heat scale stopped high damage alpha", ignoring pinpoint damage.
Except that all it's done is remove high alphas of all the same weapon. *shrug*

12:50 - Heat cap doesn't stop this because you can cool down and do it again.
Neither does heat scale.

Heat scale works better because you can die from it.
Haven't yet.

14:00 - Person making a 30 point shot has to jump through hoops and that's a skill shot.
I'd argue it's far easier, for a more efficient damage delivery to damage taken ratio.

Heat scale is working exactly as they want.
That much I figured.

15:00 - Paul can see the benefit of more information about ghost heat. Maybe an in game indicator that you can then go and search in the front end to find out what's going on.
That's good, since new players have no IDEA why they suddenly overheat from it.

19:30 - New players adapted to the new LRMs quickly.
By adapted, do you mean 'used them consistently?' Because I'd argue that so did veterans...who then dismissed them or chose not not to 'abuse' them as they saw fit.

On the AC changes;


20:40 - Feedback from meta, competitive players was that AC5s were doing too much damage.
Surprising. Moreso since they still work just as well.

21:26 - 2km shots are like shooting at specks on the screen, so the range of the ac2 was ridiculous.
It's wasn't about shooting at 2k, it was the range at which they'd still do full damage before the dropoff...either full...or half, since it's either 2, or 1.

23:20 - Not going to get synergy between the weapons, the ac2 has a niche role.
What synergy were we looking for with it?

On weapon changes in general


28:25 - Some changes (command chair post coming) to the Clan weapon setup for balance purposes. Tonnage and crits are locked for all weapons
Looking forward to reading it.

29:29 - Sweeping changes are done, micro changes from now on.
Hopefully they won't be afraid to let players actually use the changes before changing back.

30:17 - 29th Patch is going to really revitalise SRMs. Brian B tracked down another issue which should really improve things further, but now getting into territory of requiring numbers changes before all these fixes go in.
Oh good! Please don't instantly nerf them and allow us to see if they work properly first. They shouldn't suck.


32:10 - 29th Patch also includes wrong panel taking damage fixes. Brian fix and the 29th Patch brings hit registration upto 80-90%.
Nice to see an integral part of the game that was broken finally being addressed. Finally. I hope.

On Clans;


36:00 - Clan AC's could be shooting in bursts, i.e. CUAC20 5 round burst doing 4 damage per shell, so will be DoT and doing spread damage. Will still have jamming mechanic too. There won't be Clan Standard ACs (though there was some confusion on this).
Interesting...putting the effectiveness of the weapon partly in the hands of the player being shot at (torso twist). I wonder if this will lower the DPS of the weapon just like the charge mechanic did for the gauss. Does the weapon recycle begin counting after the first, or last shell if fired?

38:05 - Potentially looking at beam duration to balance Clan lasers (standard and pulse).
Also putting the damage sent downrange partially in the hands of the person being targeted.

38:40 - LRMs firing in sequence is a possibility, so firing in streams which will improve AMS performance against them.
Seems like this will hurt a lot their effectiveness...depending on damage per missile.

39:30 - No minimum range on Clan LRMs, but possibly ramping up damage from 0 - 180m.
That really makes zero sense for missiles, having a ramp up.

41:05 - Doesn't want Inner Sphere to have ability to change ammo on the LBX. Clans only option.
That's a damned shame. So, clanners who want to avoid the 'pellet' mechanic of the UAC20 will load up a super light clan UAC20, ie a Clan LBX-20 with slugs.

43:00 - Ghost heat for Clans is probably going to be the same as IS.
Well, at least it'll be equally dumb for both sides.

On Community Warfare


44:40 - Fully understands the doubt in the delivery of CW. Guarantees that CW is going through design lock down.
At least he understands the doubts.

45:15 - Want everyone who plays to have a role in the IS. Taking over a planet is epic, want everyone to be involved.
A good goal.

46:10 - They want to do CW right first time rather than having to design on the fly.
I smell more delays.

48:10 - They have a small team so key features come first. UI2.0 took all the resources for CW, then launch module took all the resources, then Clans took all the resources.
Isn't this why they asked us what we wanted first? Wasn't the answer resoundingly "CW!"

51:10 - Decision was to get content out then let people play with the content whilst they build CW.
Because as they release more and more mechs, you'll see more and more cookie-cutter builds on different chassis doing the same damned things? Fail.
On 3/3/3/3 related changes


52:40 - No way of knowing how big a group is going to affect a match. Decided to stick with 4 (was a push for 3 from somewhere)."
Whoever is calling for screwing over groups even more is a moron.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 23 April 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Clan UAC20... 20 damage in 4 shots
IS UAC5 5 damage per shell double rate of fire
Clan LBX only get switch ammo



Derp!

[Jin Ma]

omg awesome. everybody can participate in taking over planets.

no more game sum and twitter galaxy map

[FupDup]

Also, I really wonder what they're going to do with the Clan ERPPC. If they reduce the damage and/or increase the heat on it, the poor little Adder might not be able to hold a candle to the Inner Sphere "Nascar" lights. But if they don't, then the weapon will almost certainly find its way onto every meta build on the Clan side of the game.

[Strum Wealh]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

That doesn't change that slugs are superior. It just seems like an arbitrary way to make people have to use garbage equipment. A better solution is to make cluster rounds actually effective in their own right. My own preferred way would be to increase their damage per pellet to ~1.4-1.5. Slugs would still be the more versatile of the two, but then clusters could provide a nice whallop in close quarters.

Aside from exacerbating the issue of low TTK (which Paul cites in the podcast, from 11:32 to 12:10, as a problem they're attempting to avoid/mitigate), adding damage to the cluster rounds doesn't address the issue.

What would be needed is a two-fold solution:
1.) forced munition mixing, to prevent people from solely loading u on slug rounds
2.) making slug rounds fire in multi-shell bursts (3-5 individual shells per burst) over some set duration (either a set duration - say, 0.5s - for all LB-X ACs, or varying by AC class (shortest for LB 2-X, longest for LB 20-X)), do reduce/remove the FLD effect (which could - and should - be applied so standard ACs, as well)

[FupDup]

Strum Wealh, on 23 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Aside from exacerbating the issue of low TTK (which Paul cites in the podcast, from 11:32 to 12:10, as a problem they're attempting to avoid/mitigate), adding damage to the cluster rounds doesn't address the issue.

Weapons that are only effective up close are kind of supposed to have a lower TTK than weapons effective at medium-long ranges. That's the point of taking the risks of getting close in the first place.

Strum Wealh, on 23 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

What would be needed is a two-fold solution:
1.) forced munition mixing, to prevent people from solely loading u on slug rounds
2.) making slug rounds fire in multi-shell bursts (3-5 individual shells per burst) over some set duration (either a set duration - say, 0.5s - for all LB-X ACs, or varying by AC class (shortest for LB 2-X, longest for LB 20-X)), do reduce/remove the FLD effect (which could - and should - be applied so standard ACs, as well)

Forced ammo mixing is arbitrary and doesn't change the fact that cluster rounds would be garbage if implemented the same way as Inner Sphere clusters.

LBX slugs firing in bursts would make Clan Ultras superior to the LBX's, because the Ultras take up 1 less critical slot each, and are also burst, but get to allocate all of their ammo into munitions that are effective (no clusters, slug only), and have the ability to fire faster (with jamming risks).

Edited by FupDup, 23 April 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

Wait a minute, does this mean the AC/2 is going to be like this forever? Breaking Mechwarrior weapon ideology and shoot at a shorter range than the 5's? I was hoping all the AC's would receive 2X max range.

ARRRRGH!

[AlmightyAeng]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Also, I really wonder what they're going to do with the Clan ERPPC. If they reduce the damage and/or increase the heat on it, the poor little Adder might not be able to hold a candle to the Inner Sphere "Nascar" lights. But if they don't, then the weapon will almost certainly find its way onto every meta build on the Clan side of the game.

Lightning pellets.

[Roadbeer]

Thanks again to NGNG for throwing casual group players under the bus to reinforce their accommodation of the Private Match system.

Legitimate question: "Do you think you could have done more at the time to incorporate casual group play? And how do you plan to address this moving forward"

NGNG "question": "Yeah, PUGSTOMPING was bad, W00TZ0RZ FOR ESPORTS!"



But we'll ignore how you completely blew past HOW they got to 84% of PUGs playing and just say "Yeah, 84% are PUGs, so shit on those casual group guys"

[Bhael Fire]

FupDup, on 23 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Also, I really wonder what they're going to do with the Clan ERPPC. If they reduce the damage and/or increase the heat on it, the poor little Adder might not be able to hold a candle to the Inner Sphere "Nascar" lights. But if they don't, then the weapon will almost certainly find its way onto every meta build on the Clan side of the game.

It'll probably have a slower velocity and a longer recycle time.

[Mcgral18]

Bhael Fire, on 23 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

It'll probably have a slower velocity and a longer recycle time.

PGI seems to have a hard time making things longer than 4 seconds.

We can hope, though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 23 April 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

PGI seems to have a hard time making things longer than 4 seconds.

We can hope, though.

That's what she said!

[Bobzilla]

So the clan mechs with static engines leading to slower max speeds and worse damage mitigation though mobility get shot at with pinpont weapons.
The IS mechs can take bigger engines leading to faster max speeds and better damage mitigation though mobility get shot at with all spread damage.

Does that seem completely backwards to anyone else?