624 replies to this topic

[Charons Little Helper]

Nikkoru, on 30 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Actually, it is.

I understand the game mechanics, but I have drawn a different conclusion than you have.

You and I disagree not because one of us doesn't understand (but hey, thanks for the passive-aggressive implication, there), but because we have different opinions.

Technically - yes - it is an opinion.

But in some cases opinions can be wrong. It's just a matter of degrees instead of a 'totally right' or 'totally wrong'.

I could theoretically have the opinion that it's a good idea to run an Atlas with nothing but a pair of flamers. That would be an opinion - but it would be extremely on the 'wrong' side of the scale.

While running an almost purely LRM Atlas and thinking it's a good build is technically an opinion - most here are arguing that it is solidly a bad build and therefore on the 'wrong' side of the spectrum. Not 100% wrong. There are worse potential builds. But to most - it's quite obviously a very sub-par build.

[Nikkoru]

mogs01gt, on 30 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

We cant get any where with you. Roles are not opinions, roles for Mechs are set in stone or until the mech changes.

A Atlas is not a support mech. That ends the discussion.

You keep stating your opinion over and over again, but it is still just an opinion.

Look, I understand your opinion, and your reasons for it. That should be enough for you.

The best you can ever hope for out of life is to be understood by another.

You, on the other hand, want me to accept your opinion as objective fact, and I can't do that, because it isn't.

You may think it is objective fact, but that, in and of itself, is also just an opinion.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, like the mod asked us to, m'kay?

Edited by Nikkoru, 30 April 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Nikkoru, on 30 April 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

You keep stating your opinion over and over again, but it is still just an opinion.
Look, I understand your opinion, and your reasons for it. That should be enough for you.
The best you can ever hope for out of life is to be understood by another.
You, on the other hand, want me to accept your opinion as objective fact, and I can't do that, because it isn't.
You may think it is objective fact, but that, in and of itself, is also just an opinion.
Let's just agree to disagree and move on, like the mod asked us to, m'kay?

Fact: Atlas is not a support Mech. Will you accept that?
Fact: LRMs are support weaons. Will you acccept that?

These are NOT opinions. These are cold hard facts!

Edited by mogs01gt, 30 April 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Nikkoru]

mogs01gt, on 30 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Fact: Atlas is not a support Mech. Will you except that?

First of all, the word is accept, not except.
Second of all, it depends on what you mean by support mech. There are lots of different ways to play support and a ton of different styles that could be correctly labled as "support."

Support is a very broad term.

mogs01gt, on 30 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Fact: LRMs are support weaons. Will you except that?

Again, there are lots of different ways to use LRM's, and many different styles and implementations. I've seen people dumb-fire at long range successfully, I've seen people use them as direct-fire short range weapons, sticking to around 300m max, I've also seen people using them as indirect fire baraage cockpit shakers, I've seen indirect snap-shotters, and I've seen people who mix and match those styles.

Support is a very broad term.

mogs01gt, on 30 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

These are cold hard facts!

In your opinion.

Look, you are just trolling at this point, and the mod asked you to stop doing that. I'm just going to ignore your posts from now on so I don't get banned by being associated with you.

Charons Little Helper, on 30 April 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

I could theoretically have the opinion that it's a good idea to run an Atlas with nothing but a pair of flamers. That would be an opinion - but it would be extremely on the 'wrong' side of the scale.

While running an almost purely LRM Atlas and thinking it's a good build is technically an opinion - most here are arguing that it is solidly a bad build and therefore on the 'wrong' side of the spectrum. Not 100% wrong. There are worse potential builds. But to most - it's quite obviously a very sub-par build.

This is a good respectful post, so I will reply in kind:

There are a couple basic assumptions in your analysis I would point out:
1) You assume that having an optimal build is important. I would ask if it really is important? What if it is more fun to field a sub-par build? Should that be allowed or disallowed?

2) You assume that the discussion is about good builds versus bad builds. Setting that aside, what about the larger issue of players being allowed the freedom to field whatever they like, versus being forced to field what other people would have them field. Which in more important?

Edited by Nikkoru, 30 April 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[giganova]

This topic is just as bad, if not worse in some areas, as those silly mech tier lists. People stating their opinions as fact does not make them any more factual.

[ApolloKaras]

giganova, on 30 April 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

This topic is just as bad, if not worse in some areas, as those silly mech tier lists. People stating their opinions as fact does not make them any more factual.

You would admit though, that there are better tools for the job at hand. Sure I can use a flathead screw driver on a phillips screw, but would it be more efficient if I use a phillips screwdriver?

[mogs01gt]

Ok Im done, the trolls win. Void's post has been officially ruined.

Edited by mogs01gt, 30 April 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[1453 R]

You're in the Guides and Strategies subsection of the forums, Nikkoru, Giganova. A basic assumption of this entire section is that the players in here are at least somewhat interested in improving their performance in the game. If a player has no interest whatsoever in improving their skills, their builds, or their teamplay, then there is no reason for them to pay any attention to this forum whatsoever.

If you want to run what you want to run what you want to run, then do that. Players have the freedom to run whatever they like, nobody's forcing anybody to do anything. Notice this thread is tagged 'plea'. The notion is that taking under consideration the ideas that Void presents - that the Atlas makes a poor long-distance support chassis next to other available 'mechs, and that nothing else in the game can do what an Atlas does do well - will probably result in an increase in your ability to win games. It may take practice, it may result in your own personal self taking more face-punchings because that's what an Atlas does...but it will also likely result in you getting more "Match Win" bonuses under your belt.

And that is what we're all here in G&S to do for you.

[Nikkoru]

1453 R, on 30 April 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

You're in the Guides and Strategies subsection of the forums, Nikkoru, Giganova. A basic assumption of this entire section is that the players in here are at least somewhat interested in improving their performance in the game. If a player has no interest whatsoever in improving their skills, their builds, or their teamplay, then there is no reason for them to pay any attention to this forum whatsoever.

If you want to run what you want to run what you want to run, then do that. Players have the freedom to run whatever they like, nobody's forcing anybody to do anything. Notice this thread is tagged 'plea'. The notion is that taking under consideration the ideas that Void presents - that the Atlas makes a poor long-distance support chassis next to other available 'mechs, and that nothing else in the game can do what an Atlas does do well - will probably result in an increase in your ability to win games. It may take practice, it may result in your own personal self taking more face-punchings because that's what an Atlas does...but it will also likely result in you getting more "Match Win" bonuses under your belt.

And that is what we're all here in G&S to do for you.

Wow, good post 1453 R.

Devoid of name-calling, trolling, bossiness, and condescension.

Let's have more like it and this will be a good thread.

Edited by Nikkoru, 30 April 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Nikkoru, on 30 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

There are a couple basic assumptions in your analysis I would point out:
1) You assume that having an optimal build is important. I would ask if it really is important? What if it is more fun to field a sub-par build? Should that be allowed or disallowed?

2) You assume that the discussion is about good builds versus bad builds. Setting that aside, what about the larger issue of players being allowed the freedom to field whatever they like, versus being forced to field what other people would have them field. Which in more important?

As pointed out already - this is the guides & strategies section. In this particular context - I think that both of those are safe assumptions.

I would never force you to play a mech (goes against my libertarian leanings ) but in this context it's useful to discuss what optimal builds are.

[Cimarb]

I have three missile boats: STK-5M, BLR-1S and DDC. All three of them are sitting right around 2.5 KDR and my DDC has a slight edge in the WLR at 1.81. I carry 2xALRM10, 1xALRM15, a medium laser, tag and 2x MG on it, so it is genuinely a missile boat and the most enjoyable build I have ever had in it.

I don't care whether anyone thinks it's a joke build or not - I am effective in it and help the team win consistently, which is what matters.

[ApolloKaras]

Cimarb, on 30 April 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I have three missile boats: STK-5M, BLR-1S and DDC. All three of them are sitting right around 2.5 KDR and my DDC has a slight edge in the WLR at 1.81. I carry 2xALRM10, 1xALRM15, a medium laser, tag and 2x MG on it, so it is genuinely a missile boat and the most enjoyable build I have ever had in it.

I don't care whether anyone thinks it's a joke build or not - I am effective in it and help the team win consistently, which is what matters.

What they are stating is that you're taking 100 tons out of the front line and placing it into the back where the armor is not as important. What is more important than KDR is the W/L ratio. There are other mechs you could be using that will provide just as much with less tonnage. I would add to it but the OP nailed everything.

Edited by Saxie, 30 April 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[Nikkoru]

Saxie, on 30 April 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

What they are stating is that you're taking 100 tons out of the front line and placing it into the back where the armor is not as important. What is more important than KDR is the W/L ratio. There are other mechs you could be using that will provide just as much with less tonnage. I would add to it but the OP nailed everything.

But, matchmaker doesn't balance for tonnage, we all know this.

I can understand taking less tonnage for greater speed and manuverability, but less tonnage in and of itself does not benefit you or your team.

In other words, if you had the choice between two mechs that had the same speed and firepower, but one was heavier, the game would reward you if you took the heavier one over the lighter one, because it is more durable.

Of course, if the lighter one is more fun for you, take that one instead.

Edited by Nikkoru, 30 April 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Cimarb]

Saxie, on 30 April 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

What they are stating is that you're taking 100 tons out of the front line and placing it into the back where the armor is not as important. What is more important than KDR is the W/L ratio. There are other mechs you could be using that will provide just as much with less tonnage. I would add to it but the OP nailed everything.

If you are playing as a meat shield, you are in the wrong game. I make great use of my tonnage only when my ability to avoid damage has failed, regardless of what mech I am piloting. It works for me, and it will work for others that give it an intelligent try as well.

[Orbit Rain]

lol drama. enjoying gaping at the car wreck as I drive by...oh wait, skimmed past the drama bits...

I own four D-DC's and have over a million XP sitting on that variant. Each has a different loadout, and performs a different role, People that want to pigeon-hole the variant into a box are dull. if you think there's *one* optimal loadout, and *one* way to play....guess what...you aren't a "thinking man" in this "thinking man's shooter" If you expand out the roles and expand out the ways to run, you expand the possibilities, the mystery, the variety.

People don't react well to the "do this or you're a moron" posts. Leading people to come to the same conclusion you've come to without activating their "fight" response will get better results if you *actually* want to get people to agree with you. If you want to fight (though admit it, we're all here to fight each other) include insults and mockery. Use absolute coercive language. Continue to do so and wonder why people react poorly....lol.

Anyways, as long as there are new people with few mechs playing, we're gonna see an atlas with sub-optimal loadouts, like an all-LRM D-DC. Perhaps they wonder how to use LRM's and want to learn how to do it under the cover of ECM-darkness? Who knows what they're thinking, or what they know? Being a jackass to them about their build doesn't make them an idiot, it means you're a jackass. They're misinformed/inexperienced perhaps, and if you want to actually help them, you can try and help them along. But you aren't going to replace the experience and understanding only they can gain by doing it themselves and making their own mistakes, their own understanding in their own head as to what works well and what doesn't, how well and why. You aren't in their head to match how they like/want to play and how they want to play to perfectly match with what they load their mech with and how they play it. I think alot of this you have to skirt the edge of builds to find out what's "too far" yes, all LRM D-DC is probably too far, though if you know what you're doing, you can wreck pugs with it I suppose.

...back to the topic...

One of my D-DC's I call "pug Atlas" It's loaded with an AC20, 2ML and 2aLRM15's, BAP, ECM (of course). It's a general mech that stands up well to the unknown. Streams LRM's in 16, 11, 3. I sometimes use it when I'm dropping with new guys that basically need some ecm cover to run whatever drunk mech they're leveling. I also have more mainstream general build that runs an AC20, 2ML, aLRM10, 2aSRM6, ECM. Both with 335/340 engines, no free slots on either. One will work well with slow stand off fatties, the other will work better with rides that want to get closer to the enemy. Neither plays the same way, though both have an AC20 and 2ML for close-in work.

Both play in this available range of being an LRM boat (from LRM5-50 I 'spose) I don't think either of these builds would fall outside the range of what the OP consider acceptable. Is the aLRM30 and optimal LRM-boat? No, but what other lrm boat can carry an ECM and an AC20? Learn to recognize what kind of D-DC you're rolling with. Better yet, just ask what loadout they're running. My brawler D-DC with a 350, AC20, 3SRM6, 2ML is gonna want to do different things than pug D-DC. If you're expecting my D-DC to play a certain way, *you* are the one making the assumption, the mistake...if you don't know my loadout.

Like the OP, I'm gonna say that if you're running a straight LRM boat, with TAG and 1ML, you're gonna have problems dealing enemies that close in and that It's probably a sub-optimal loadout. What I'm *not* going to say if you're not up front scouting and tanking damage for your team in that D-DC (while the rest of your team hugs your nuts), you're an idiot. If you think a D-DC with a loadout like the AS7-K is supposed play the same way as the AS7-D, you're missing the point.

blah blah blah

[Orbit Rain]

Cimarb, on 30 April 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I have three missile boats: STK-5M, BLR-1S and DDC. All three of them are sitting right around 2.5 KDR and my DDC has a slight edge in the WLR at 1.81. I carry 2xALRM10, 1xALRM15, a medium laser, tag and 2x MG on it, so it is genuinely a missile boat and the most enjoyable build I have ever had in it.

I don't care whether anyone thinks it's a joke build or not - I am effective in it and help the team win consistently, which is what matters.

This is probably the nut issue of this thread. A lot of people don't run LRM boats well in the first place (not you Cimarb), and when they see a D-DC "doing it wrong" they get all bent outta shape, assuming it shouldn't be tried in the first place.

[Jacon Ceronia]

Yep, 955 damage, 5 kills, 3 assists, all while taking ZERO damage is nothing but a joke build. Keep voicing this stuff on the in game coms too. I love pointing to the match results, after someone calls me out during a battle.


BTW-- The above is not one shinning example. She does very well in all maps, on any team.

[ApolloKaras]

Orbit Rain, on 30 April 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

This is probably the nut issue of this thread. A lot of people don't run LRM boats well in the first place (not you Cimarb), and when they see a D-DC "doing it wrong" they get all bent outta shape, assuming it shouldn't be tried in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone is 'doing it wrong'. I just believe that tonnage is better used elsewhere is all

[Krombopulos K Michael]

I have been playing this game for 6 months and let me tell you, the LRM atlas is by far the best mech I have ever piloted. It is the mech I always go back to when I am frustrated with my heavies. I tried the DDC but I have found I prefer the D with it’s 4 energy slots. I think that the extra medium lasers make it more effective than ecm when those noob lights come buzzing around.

I always laugh when those idiots in alpha lance go running off to their deaths while I sit back and rain fiery death. By the time they are all dead, I am free to use my fully healthy mech to walk over weakened enemies. Void Angel just needs to man up and stop hugging the enemy mechs. Play cautious, play smart, and love the LRM atlas, don’t hate the player hate the game.

[Em3r4ld]

Please use this instead: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa9b757a00a1e9f