624 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Then you failed at missile boating by not staying lose enough to anyone to keep harassers of you back

Because when your team leaves you completely alone to fend for yourself - despite being ~40 to 100 meters from you.

It is totally your fault.

Gotcha.

[Artillery Witch Viridia]

Void Angel, on 22 May 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Actually, the only major problem with the Stalker F champion was that it was an XL Deathtrap Stalker. Otherwise, the only problem with it was that it tried to use all the same launchers - probably in order to be newbie friendly. So while the build should have looked Like This, it wasn't too bad aside from the XL. Of course, I do like The 3H better as a dedicated missile boat, but either will do in a pinch. You can also make a Passable Missile Boat out of a Highlander, though I'd personally prefer a hybrid build there. There's also the Battlemaster 1S and - althouth the example isn't probably a good build -you might even try Something Awesome. None of these builds are necessarily intended to be optimized - they're just for reference.

All of these chassis can hold their own with other Assaults as long as the team works together. The Rule of Three may create a higher proportion of cases where a large proportion of your team's assaults are missile boats, but by the same token, you're not going to have more than three Assault brawlers or poptarts either. I think it'll be ok.

More like http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4cfa21779e923b4 This for the 3f imo. But I still probably would tweak it more. Having 9 tons of ammo for 60lrms seems kind of low. This isn't a brawler after all. It has good medium lasers to attempt to fend off lights in a pinch though or when out of ammo. Heavy suppression mech usually used with the two chain fire lrm 15 groups trick. I personally pilot a 3H for my Boating needs lately. the 50 tube Whammy.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Because when your team leaves you completely alone to fend for yourself - despite being ~40 to 100 meters from you.

It is totally your fault.

Gotcha.

Still not the fault of your Assault missile boat. You lose more effective tonnage at that point but even a medium class missile boat would be dead meat at that point.

Of course, no Assault should actually be incapable of defending itself from a single light but I've already gone through why LRM Assaults are bad, so I've decided to start debunking counter arguments instead. I'm not sure why you of all people keeps throwing rocks at me, though. Did I kill you with my Catapult at some point? 5S with it's oh so dreadful dual LRM10?

Azoic23, on 22 May 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

More like http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4cfa21779e923b4 This for the 3f imo.

The idea was a consistent dual-salvo setup instead of having 2 duals and 2 triplets. It's only 2 tons heavier so there are ways to shave off some tonnage elsewhere without any real handicaps.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Still not the fault of your Assault missile boat. You lose more effective tonnage at that point but even a medium class missile boat would be dead meat at that point.

Thank you for completely ignoring my points.

Because, GEE!
A pure LRM loaded LRM boat should totally be capable of defending itself from enemy mechs - especially enemy lights!

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

Thank you for completely ignoring my points.

Because, GEE!
A pure LRM loaded LRM boat should totally be capable of defending itself from enemy mechs - especially enemy lights!

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Of course, no Assault should actually be incapable of defending itself from a single light but I've already gone through why LRM Assaults are bad, so I've decided to start debunking counter arguments instead.

I'll just leave that here, if you don't mind.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

I'll just leave that here, if you don't mind.

Which had anything to do with my point..... how?

Consider - we were discussing assault class battlemechs carrying no weapons beyond LRM.
(with you defending the idea that they were not worthless against light mechs)

HOW are they supposed to defend themselves from mechs that are - by definition - the ones defining the combat ranges?


To reiterate:

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

A pure LRM Assault is suicidal for anyone once 3/3/3/3 hits properly,

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

I would argue intensively that it was/is suicidal even without 3/3/3/3,

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

As long as 3/3/3/3 isn't here, they usually don't impact their team.

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Or have you never had a smart ECM light sit just outside your Beagle Range rendering you a complete and utter dead weight to your team?

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Then you failed at missile boating by not staying lose enough to anyone to keep harassers of you back,
...........


but I am stating why they can appear to be useful to the ones using them.

Appear useless..... yep.

Only APPEAR useless.


Rather like an LRM Atlas?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 22 May 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Appear useless..... yep.

Only APPEAR useless.


Rather like an LRM Atlas?

You know, this is why I don't like arguing with you Whoops, sorry. Your way of arguing reminded me a lot of a back and forth i had with Void that was similarly pointless. You pick the cherries you'd like to argue against without considering what the other actually says. Yes, they are bad, and stupid ideas, but I've gone ahead to explain why that fact can matter much less, when there is enough counter weight on the scale to throw it into a positive in terms of overall 'Mech composition. When you already have 4 direct fire Assaults and 3 additional sniper heavies, that missile boat Atlas/Stalker/whatever suddenly becomes a contribution to the team by assisting the front with some support fire that would otherwise be lacking.

And this is my point, as long as there is no fixed cap, there is always the chance to get so much counterweight on the team that your bad build starts being helpful to the team as a whole for as long as it is being kept alive, whether you like that build or not. This is why an LRM Assault can get good results on a fairly consistent level and also why its advocates can somewhat proudly wave around their actually positive W/L rates.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 22 May 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[YueFei]

Yeah, Shar, you're missing Seth's point.

Basically, if you've already got 11 Atlas on your team, having a 12th Atlas that is loaded as a missile boat doesn't really detract from your team's "hold the line" ability.

Seth already acknowledged that if 3/3/3/3 ever happens, this won't be the case.

Personally I hate the idea of a 3/3/3/3 requirement. And I say this as a primarily Medium mech driver. =/

[Void Angel]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Because when your team leaves you completely alone to fend for yourself - despite being ~40 to 100 meters from you.

It is totally your fault.

Gotcha.

Actually, that's what medium lasers are for. People can often become tunnel-visioned, particularly with the long-range meta and its emphasis on squinting downrange at max zoom. If you pan a Medium laser across them really fast, though, you can trigger their damage alarms without actually dealing any damage - I've used it extensively as a light pilot to warn inattentive teammates that people are chasing me.

As far as Assault LRM boats in general, I cannot ascribe to the viewpoint that LRMs are in a pretty good place and still believe that an LRM boating assault is a liability to the team. LRM boats don't operate like direct-fire combat builds - but it doesn't follow that an Assault can't operate as an LRM boat. Quite the opposite. A good LRM boat who understands suppression and how to maneuver can be an immense asset to the team - at any weight class.

[Void Angel]

Assaults do well when they use their weight of metal to influence the battlefield - they can do that up-close and personal, or they can do that from a long ways away. The trick is to learn to accept necessary damage in order to project combat power, while avoiding unnecessary damage via positioning.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Void Angel, on 22 May 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Actually, that's what medium lasers are for.

Actually that was my point -

as he first started talking about how PURE Assault class Missile boats were only going to be useless AFTER 3/3/3/3.



Or did EVERYONE ELSE miss that, despite all the emphasis I put on it?
Here let me help:

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

A pure LRM Assault is suicidal for anyone once 3/3/3/3 hits properly, but there is still a use for LRM-centric builds to assist their teammates and back up the front line.

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

I would argue intensively that it was/is suicidal even without 3/3/3/3, but there are plenty who argue that I am an idiot for even suggesting that (such as good ol Vic)

And then it went downhill.....

Because:

YueFei, on 22 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Basically, if you've already got 11 Atlas on your team, having a 12th Atlas that is loaded as a missile boat doesn't really detract from your team's "hold the line" ability.

Is TOTALLY a valid and common event.

Totally justifying bringing a PURE LRM ASSAULT into any match.

[Void Angel]

Except that it's not suicidal - because the weapons are balanced fairly well right now. More to the point, the only weapons that really are a bit overpowered are long-ranged weapons. It really does have to be one way or the other; either LRMs need to be buffed, or they're viable weapons and a boat can hold its own on the battlefield. I've been one of three assaults on my team with a missile boat; if the tonnage wasn't mismatched, it worked out ok - and the failures were from team tactics, not the inadequecy of my chassis to use the weapon system.

All viable weapon classes can be used in focused builds - brawlers often do it; meta snipers do it. LRMs are just their own category of weapon.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 May 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[xMintaka]

Maybe I'm weird, but I think any LRM boating assault (aside from an Awesome and that Stalker with 20 tubes) is a bad idea. They sacrifice far too much.

Anyone that uses LRMs extensively knows the way to get the best out of them is Tagging your own targets. Anything else is, quite literally, very hit and miss. Assault mechs cannot do this well since they do not have the mobility to get back into cover should they become the target of focus fire.
Further compounding this weakness is their inability to effectively reposition. It's not hard for a light or fast medium to follow the rainbow and find a pot of gold at the end, trying to defend itself with a medium laser or three. The only way to avoid this is by staying with the pack or frequently moving. Not easy to do at 60kph.

If you want a big LRM boat, an Orion is your best bet. My -V is packing ALRM50 + Tag and moves at 70kph, the bare minimum for this style of play imho.


Oh, tube count. Another reasons why assault LRM boats are bad. The only ones that can launch a decent amount of missiles in one volley are a cpuple of Awesomes, one Stalker and I think some Highlanders. On the rest you're just pre-chewing food for enemy AMS.

Edited by Lunatech, 23 May 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

And this is my point, as long as there is no fixed cap, there is always the chance to get so much counterweight on the team that your bad build starts being helpful to the team as a whole for as long as it is being kept alive, whether you like that build or not. This is why an LRM Assault can get good results on a fairly consistent level and also why its advocates can somewhat proudly wave around their actually positive W/L rates.

And that somehow makes the core point that I was arguing against meaningless.... HOW.

In the PuG world there is allways a chance for ANYTHING.

So I guess that means I am perfectly safe not hurting my team bringing whatever the frak I feel like.

Since anything can happen - and it is perfectly fine for me to bring a (strongly) potential 100ton paperweight, since it has little impact due to the lack of 3/3/3/3......


GOTCHA.
That is it everyone - Seth as successfully proven that this whole thread is meaningless, pointless, and wrong.

Call in the Mods, have them lock it and K-Town it!

Edited by Shar Wolf, 23 May 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 23 May 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

GOTCHA.
That is it everyone - Seth as successfully proven that this whole thread is meaningless, pointless, and wrong.

Call in the Mods, have them lock it and K-Town it!

Butthurt much? Oh noes, I don't agree that pure LRM boats are absolute shite in the current matchmaking environment for the reasons I took the liberty of listing. You on the other hand has been repeatedly stating that you don't like LRM Assaults much and that's about it.

I enjoy murdering your posts, though. Not much to feast on, but you don't question the guy that keeps tossing ducks into a meat grinder.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 23 May 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Butthurt much? Oh noes, I don't agree that pure LRM boats are absolute shite in the current matchmaking environment for the reasons I took the liberty of listing. You on the other hand has been repeatedly stating that you don't like LRM Assaults much and that's about it.

I enjoy murdering your posts, though. Not much to feast on, but you don't question the guy that keeps tossing ducks into a meat grinder.

Dude - if you think I am butthurt about this - you must have missed how heavily I have been mocking you,

Let me make it easy for you.

You made a stupid point, and when it was pointed out how stupid it was - you have gone on only to make yourself look all the stupider for it.

There, wasn't that easy?





Show me where I said I did not like LRM Assaults.

SHOW ME, oh so wise and wonderful master of all and everything.

Oh.

Wait.

You cannot.

Because I did not.



The only LRM Assaults I object to are the ones that do nothing BUT bring LRM.

Because if you do not have the ability to dictate what ranges you fight at - you should not be bringing weapons that have intensive range limitations on them, without backup.

[YueFei]

Shar Wolf, on 23 May 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

And then it went downhill.....

Because:


Is TOTALLY a valid and common event.

Totally justifying bringing a PURE LRM ASSAULT into any match.

Still missing the point.

In the current matchmaking environment, your team can have alot of Assault mechs already. If your team already has plenty of Assault mechs, it does not really hurt your team what you pick. You could be in a humble Hunchback, which cannot tank damage well, but will not have to with a crapload of Assault mechs already on your team. Or you could shove yourself into a LRMing Fatlas.

Seth was explaining *why* and *how* some players can be LRMing Atlas and have success and not be a detriment to their team. Thus explaining why some guys disagree with the notion that a LRM-Assault does not work. For them it works great, because... if your team does not need your armor up front because it already has plenty of Assault mechs, you can get away with doing something silly like an all-LRM Atlas. That is NOT the same as Seth *advocating* that you should shove yourself in an all-LRM Assault mech.

It will matter much more if your team can only have 3 Assault mechs.

Edited by YueFei, 23 May 2014 - 01:02 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

YueFei, on 23 May 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Still missing the point.

No more than you are missing mine.




Oh.


WAIT.







Saying that it doesn't matter is the same as saying that the point of this whole thread is garbage.
Saying that means that it is perfectly fine for that Atlas to keep getting upset because my LOCUST will not take the hits for him.

Saying that..... is stupid.

[Void Angel]

Children! Quittit.

[Void Angel]

If I can deal with all the accusations [read the spoiler] to which I've been subjected in this thread without flipping out and losing my head, you guys can, too.