342 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Ok, so you have your starting kills, ending kills, etc? That's fine... Trivial to derive the actual match statistics then.

If you want to post those up, it'd be interesting to see.

Having you get better over time in the thing isn't bad at all. It'll actually be a more fair evaluation of the weapon. the larger dataset will be more useful though than just the 23.

[MischiefSC]

Roland, on 01 May 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Ok, so you have your starting kills, ending kills, etc? That's fine... Trivial to derive the actual match statistics then.

If you want to post those up, it'd be interesting to see.

Having you get better over time in the thing isn't bad at all. It'll actually be a more fair evaluation of the weapon. the larger dataset will be more useful though than just the 23.

I linked to them in the last post.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, could you do me a favor, possibly from the last 23, but if possible the total 60?

What was:
1) Your W/L ratio?
2) Your K/Dr?
3) Average Damage per match
4) Average Kills per match
5) Average Deaths per match (not as important, IMO, but still useful)
6) Average Component Damage
7) Average Match score?

I don't care you didn't get video, while useful, it is not all that important, and TBH, I doubt I would feel like sitting and watching them when I could be out playing anyhow.

BTW, my Data, thus far (either ignored, or overlooked about 3 pages ago)

Current Build (33 matches... had time to squeeze in one match earlier today, added 2 kills, and lived, but we lost on resource points)
Current KDr: 4.05 (69 kills, 17 deaths)
Average Match Damage: 540
Average Match Kills: 2.06
Average Match Deaths: 0.51
W/L: 1:33

Old Build (465 matches, 75% as BoomJager, 20% 2x AC10/4x MG/2x ML approx 5% mixed builds)
Current KDr: 1.69 (529 kills, 313 Deaths)
Average Match Damage: 334
Average Match Kills: 1.13
W/L: 1.26
Average Match Deaths: 0.67

Thus, so far, I have: Increased K/Dr by 2.36 , Avg Dmg by 206 pts per match , Avg Kills by .93 per match Wins by =.07 (statistically irrelevant, but at least not a negative) and reduced deaths by 0.16% a match (not huge but being all are brawling builds, dying is not an uncommon side effect)

again, sample size is still too small to be fully satisfactory, but it IS indicative, considering I am a veteran player, and thus, should be less prone to wild swings in either direction. But thus far, I have had a marked improvement in EVERY SINGLE MEASURABLE STAT. That is unlikely to be a fluke.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 May 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

MischiefSC, could you do me a favor, possibly from the last 23, but if possible the total 60?

What was:
1) Your W/L ratio?
2) Your K/Dr?
3) Average Damage per match
4) Average Kills per match
5) Average Deaths per match (not as important, IMO, but still useful)
6) Average Component Damage
7) Average Match score?

I don't care you didn't get video, while useful, it is not all that important, and TBH, I doubt I would feel like sitting and watching them when I could be out playing anyhow.

BTW, my Data, thus far (either ignored, or overlooked about 3 pages ago)

Current Build (33 matches... had time to squeeze in one match earlier today, added 2 kills, and lived, but we lost on resource points)
Current KDr: 4.05 (69 kills, 17 deaths)
Average Match Damage: 540
Average Match Kills: 2.06
W/L: 1:33

Old Build (465 matches, 75% as BoomJager, 20% 2x AC10/4x MG/2x ML approx 5% mixed builds)
Current KDr: 1.69
Average Match Damage: 334
Average Match Kills: 1.13
W/L: 1.26

again, sample size is still too small to be fully satisfactory, but it IS indicative, considering I am a veteran player, and thus, should be less prone to wild swings in either direction.

Absolutely.

At the moment I've got a couple of new players I'm escorting through some matches but later tonight or tomorrow I'd be happy to.

[Roland]

MischiefSC, on 01 May 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

I linked to them in the last post.

I'm sorry, by eyes are ready to fall out of my head from reading junk tonight... Is it in one of the text posts, or are you just talking about the images of all the screenshots?

What I'm looking for is the actual number of kills and deaths and damage, total, over the 60 matches.

It totally could be in one of those posts, but I'm not sure which one... you made a bunch with different data in them.

I greatly appreciate you taking the time for testing though. It's great when folks actually take the time to analyze things.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 01 May 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

Absolutely.

At the moment I've got a couple of new players I'm escorting through some matches but later tonight or tomorrow I'd be happy to.

Ugh. Got to tell you....you die too much!

Anyhow, for those 23 matches:

Avg Match Score: 76.1
Total Kills: 41 (1.78 avg)
Assists: 90 (3.91 avg)
Damage: 558.21 avg
Deaths: 17 (.739 avg)
Component Destruction: 91 (.95 avg)
W/Lr: 1.875
K/Dr: 2.41

aside from the deaths, looks solid, though not spectacular.

[Deathlike]

Someone is gonna have to do the numbers as I've posted them earlier in this thread. You can do the math on your own.

All I have are screenshots of "decent matches" with LBX, and I usually take pics of good games (and occasionally some of the bad).

Solo:


Solo:


Solo - Beast Mode on ****ing Mordor - I suspect too much underhive:


Solo:


2-Man:


4-Man - Yes, The Huggin Sucks:


2-Man vs 12-Man:


Solo:


Solo:


Enjoy:

Final Stats:

LB 10-X AC 6 512 441 86.13% 00:33:42 3,826

I have ZERO idea how PGI keeps track of stats (aka it's not working properly)

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 80 40 40 1.00 74 56 1.32 28,034 57,503 07:08:55

There were many frustrating matches, but that's mostly luck and/or my own doing. That has more to do with the meta (brawling is frowned upon) and just me being a newbie sometimes.

I think that 6 kill game however did give me "a little faith" in the weapon... as it did do what I needed it do when I was facehugging. Outside of that... no dice. The weapon still needs help (penetrating armor) because it does. The "inflation of the scores" was definitely due in part of arty, streaks, and the LBX itself. So, you can make these stats for what it is worth.

I'll give LBX credit... it did give the 2D much needed heat relief (added a DHS for the extra ton spared - in addition to generating less heat) and like SRMs, you had to fire in a "general" direction instead of being totally pinpoint for accuracy... which is kinda important in a brawl.

The weapon still needs to be buffed somehow (more damaging pellets to armor mainly).. and that's all I have to add.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Ugh. Got to tell you....you die too much!

Anyhow, for those 23 matches:

Avg Match Score: 76.1
Total Kills: 41 (1.78 avg)
Assists: 90 (3.91 avg)
Damage: 558.21 avg
Deaths: 17 (.739 avg)
Component Destruction: 91 (.95 avg)
W/Lr: 1.875
K/Dr: 2.41

aside from the deaths, looks solid, though not spectacular.

Yeah, I could likely greatly increase my KDR by just backing off when I'm on the verge of death, but honestly? Helps my team more to just keep going. Pugging at just shy of a 1.9 win/loss is pretty phenomenal for me in a heavy mech like that - not like I'm bringing ECM or anything. I've got close to 2,000 drops in heavies since Elo first came out, so that was a significant bump from where I should be (1.3-1.5, if I'm settled and above average).

I'll look over your tally though, that's not what I got out of it? Maybe I missed something.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 01 May 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Yeah, I could likely greatly increase my KDR by just backing off when I'm on the verge of death, but honestly? Helps my team more to just keep going. Pugging at just shy of a 1.9 win/loss is pretty phenomenal for me in a heavy mech like that - not like I'm bringing ECM or anything. I've got close to 2,000 drops in heavies since Elo first came out, so that was a significant bump from where I should be (1.3-1.5, if I'm settled and above average).

I'll look over your tally though, that's not what I got out of it? Maybe I missed something.

You had two screens that I had to work around. One you didn't have the end of match screen, so no match score and the other was from banshee

[ShinVector]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

2-Man vs 12-Man:

12 FedRats defeated !!
Respect !

Edited by ShinVector, 01 May 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 May 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

You had two screens that I had to work around. One you didn't have the end of match screen, so no match score and the other was from banshee

That makes sense. I fixed it (the Banshee match were at the end while group dropping, I just capped it by habit I think) and I lost a screenshot of the end of round somewhere along the way.

I end up with 3.96 components destroyed/match average. I also got the win/loss and kdr backwards from my notes - 0.22 imp on KDR over 60 matches, a shift from 2.01 to a 2.23 and a win/loss bump of 1.32 to a 1.74. that's above the mean for my performance - significantly.

It's the win/loss that intrigues me. Win/loss shift is harder to manage than KDR. I could dramatically raise my KDR by playing a tad more cautious when, for example, I'm pure red CT. I almost never have a big impact at the end but, well, I honestly don't care much about KDR, win/loss is a bigger deal for me so I try to draw attention/help my team.

The fundamental factor though is shift in win/loss and KDR. My stats are representative of my performance and thus subject to all the nuances of my personal play style. The point being that the build performs better for you and for me relative to our regular performance.

Hence the origin of the post - LB10X are worth looking at.

@Roland;

you ever get past the UI to make something?

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

Someone is gonna have to do the numbers as I've posted them earlier in this thread. You can do the math on your own.

All I have are screenshots of "decent matches" with LBX, and I usually take pics of good games (and occasionally some of the bad).

Solo:


Solo:


Solo - Beast Mode on ****ing Mordor - I suspect too much underhive:


Solo:


2-Man:


4-Man - Yes, The Huggin Sucks:


2-Man vs 12-Man:


Solo:


Solo:


Enjoy:

Final Stats:

LB 10-X AC 6 512 441 86.13% 00:33:42 3,826

I have ZERO idea how PGI keeps track of stats (aka it's not working properly)

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 80 40 40 1.00 74 56 1.32 28,034 57,503 07:08:55

There were many frustrating matches, but that's mostly luck and/or my own doing. That has more to do with the meta (brawling is frowned upon) and just me being a newbie sometimes.

I think that 6 kill game however did give me "a little faith" in the weapon... as it did do what I needed it do when I was facehugging. Outside of that... no dice. The weapon still needs help (penetrating armor) because it does. The "inflation of the scores" was definitely due in part of arty, streaks, and the LBX itself. So, you can make these stats for what it is worth.

I'll give LBX credit... it did give the 2D much needed heat relief (added a DHS for the extra ton spared - in addition to generating less heat) and like SRMs, you had to fire in a "general" direction instead of being totally pinpoint for accuracy... which is kinda important in a brawl.

The weapon still needs to be buffed somehow (more damaging pellets to armor mainly).. and that's all I have to add.

A couple of things - need more than six matches to get a decent view. I'd love to see 40 or so matches with the LB10X so we can accurately see your damage/shot. Over those 6 matches though, call it a hit or a miss you were averaging 7.47 points/pull of the trigger. That's almost like having a 75% accuracy with PPCs and always hitting for full damage (as in within range).

The whole point of the LB10X is different from a regular AC10. It's playing to that damage per trigger pull; take every shot within reasonable range. All of them. You're a sand blaster, not a scalpel. You'll get people to move, twist to avoid getting hit (which keeps them from shooting you) and spoil their aim with screen shake. Every point of damage counts. I realize that most weapons work best with good trigger discipline. That's not the LB10X. Treat it like a super-low heat SRM launcher with a higher rate of fire and suddenly it'll dance for you.

That's the big difference for me. It takes some adjusting; that's why I had to go back to my Banshee for a bit. You don't want to lose the habit of careful aiming.

For brawling though? It really shines, I was quite surprised.

[monk]

MischiefSC, on 02 May 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

The whole point of the LB10X is different from a regular AC10. It's playing to that damage per trigger pull; take every shot within reasonable range. All of them. You're a sand blaster, not a scalpel. You'll get people to move, twist to avoid getting hit (which keeps them from shooting you) and spoil their aim with screen shake. Every point of damage counts. I realize that most weapons work best with good trigger discipline. That's not the LB10X. Treat it like a super-low heat SRM launcher with a higher rate of fire and suddenly it'll dance for you.

That's they key I'm seeing. If you're taking your finger off the trigger of your guns, you're probably not using it in the best manner. Sometimes I start laughing so hard at how it destroys people I actually start to feel bad.

Of course, karma makes sure the next match I can't get close enough to anyone to brawl, and I end up with 13 damage. So there's that small downside.

[MischiefSC]

monk, on 02 May 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

That's they key I'm seeing. If you're taking your finger off the trigger of your guns, you're probably not using it in the best manner. Sometimes I start laughing so hard at how it destroys people I actually start to feel bad.

Of course, karma makes sure the next match I can't get close enough to anyone to brawl, and I end up with 13 damage. So there's that small downside.

HA! Exactly. So like all weapons it's situational.

Per personal opinion is -

Best brawling weapon on a build with good synergy. Build a mech for brawling and if you've got the tonnage to take it, it's a surprisingly good choice. It's a face-humping weapon and applied liberally it can improve your whole teams odds.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 02 May 2014 - 12:36 AM, said:

A couple of things - need more than six matches to get a decent view. I'd love to see 40 or so matches with the LB10X so we can accurately see your damage/shot. Over those 6 matches though, call it a hit or a miss you were averaging 7.47 points/pull of the trigger. That's almost like having a 75% accuracy with PPCs and always hitting for full damage (as in within range).

It's not 6 matches. It's at least 12 (more like 18). That's the problem with PGI's weapon stat tracking. I put up 9 screenshots.

Quote

The whole point of the LB10X is different from a regular AC10. It's playing to that damage per trigger pull; take every shot within reasonable range. All of them. You're a sand blaster, not a scalpel. You'll get people to move, twist to avoid getting hit (which keeps them from shooting you) and spoil their aim with screen shake. Every point of damage counts. I realize that most weapons work best with good trigger discipline. That's not the LB10X. Treat it like a super-low heat SRM launcher with a higher rate of fire and suddenly it'll dance for you.

I prefer a pair of ASRM4s more. It's a lot more consistent.

MischiefSC, on 02 May 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

HA! Exactly. So like all weapons it's situational.

Per personal opinion is -

Best brawling weapon on a build with good synergy. Build a mech for brawling and if you've got the tonnage to take it, it's a surprisingly good choice. It's a face-humping weapon and applied liberally it can improve your whole teams odds.

It's unfortunately exceptionally situational. You literally need to get into facehumping range or it's really like playing the RNG lotto.

I will consider taking it more when the AC10 is not as productive (when heat and/or ammo is a concerned), but the effort required to get into brawling range AND requirement of an exposed torso demands heavier weapons to do the heavy work (which has been said for the MG) under the long range meta makes the LBX demand a lot more of you to be successful. Only if you get the chance to facehug is when it can shine, but that also implies a dedication to "bridging the gap" through bigger engines and very concerted/calculated play...

It is a feast or famine weapon ultimately.

[Deathlike]

Stat check:

Then:

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 47 28 19 1.47 38 29 1.31 16,462 35,840 04:16:29

Now:

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 80 40 40 1.00 74 56 1.32 28,034 57,503 07:08:55

33 matches, 12-21 (.57 W-L ratio), 36 kills, 27 deaths (1.33 K/D ratio) 11572 damage, 21663 XP gained, ~almost 3 hours played

So... feast or famine.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 May 2014 - 03:55 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ShinVector, on 01 May 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

12 FedRats defeated !!
Respect !

even better, 12 FedRats defeated at their own capping game....... (and a brawler SHD getting 4 kills on alpine, lol)

[Trauglodyte]

I played around with the LB over the weekend before I even saw this post. It is fun and it sounds freaking amazing. When I toyed around with my K2 last year, I tried a douple LB build and then I realizd how much I hated the K2 - looks sweet but it is Kurita trash. Anyway, back to the point, the LB is a pure feast or famine weapon. You either have to go full in and sand blast as much armor as you can as quickly as you can without pausing or you end up using it at only the most opportune times when someone is falling apart. In the first situation, you're essentially brawling to get max effectiveness but you're really hosing yourself by doing that because your damage is typically spread out, ala LRMs/SRMs, which means that you're fighting an up hill battle. It isn't until you've got the armor stripped away that you really shine but then it is arguable if you'd do better with the LB or with other weapons.

Someone, I think it was Bishop, mentioned that he tried a Victor with a single LB and found it lacking. Well, that is PGI's MWO for you where oen weapon standing alone is mediocre while 2-3 of them because obsurd. As Mischief said, it syncs really well with artillery where you can get some armor shredded off early only to maximize the potential of the LB. In that instance, would you bet better running it like this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8fd7fc6ae7ad37e

I really want to like the LB and I play it every now and then with the hopes that it works. But, PGI hasn't gotten it coded right just yet. The changes to hit registry might be helping compared to before and that is a good thing. I'd love if it could run slugs like the Clan version and am hoping that Paul sees reason on this, though I doubt that he will. I'd dance a freaking jig, Last Boy Scout style, if they just upped the damage of the pellets or, my personal choice, drop the range down to 2x and make the LB 10 do 20 damage at 0m and have it scale down to 0 at 900m so it operated like a true shot gun and, better yet, actually played like a heavy and very useful close ranged weapon. It still wouldn't beat out the SRM6, though, which is really the travesty. The LB has a damage to weight ratio of 0.91 vs the SRM6's 4.0 which will forever make the LB problematic.

[Roland]

This is pretty hillarious.

The results that people are getting are surprisingly good, I must admit. I'm somewhat tempted to perform some additional testing myself, although I'm also pretty apathetic towards the whole thing as I've lost a lot of interest in the game overall.

However, it's still interesting. I'd be interested to see more direct comparative testing over larger datasets.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Roland, on 02 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

This is pretty hillarious.

The results that people are getting are surprisingly good, I must admit. I'm somewhat tempted to perform some additional testing myself, although I'm also pretty apathetic towards the whole thing as I've lost a lot of interest in the game overall.

However, it's still interesting. I'd be interested to see more direct comparative testing over larger datasets.

I've broken over 1k damage with PPC+LBX combo, but I suspect PPCs are doing a good chunk of that work since the meta still greatly favors any loadout with 2xPPC.

The LBX do compliment them nicely though 90-200m where PPC's can strike first because of their higher velocity, then the LBX can almost gaurantee a shot at internals gaining their crit bonus.

I mean, its not BAD, but its not ideal.... now if LBX's did 1.4 damage a pellet I would love that combo even more.