342 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I've broken over 1k damage with PPC+LBX combo, but I suspect PPCs are doing a good chunk of that work since the meta still greatly favors any loadout with 2xPPC.

It depends how often you are ending up brawling with the LBX. It collects damage like Streaks (or dust). LBX does inflate damage numbers pretty easily IMO.

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The LBX do compliment them nicely though 90-200m where PPC's can strike first because of their higher velocity, then the LBX can almost gaurantee a shot at internals gaining their crit bonus.

It can, but I wouldn't use it on your Shadowhawk build idea.

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I mean, its not BAD, but its not ideal.... now if LBX's did 1.4 damage a pellet I would love that combo even more.

LET THE LBX META BEGIN.... only if Paul lets us.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 02 May 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

Stat check:

Then:

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 47 28 19 1.47 38 29 1.31 16,462 35,840 04:16:29

Now:

SHADOW HAWK SHD-2D 80 40 40 1.00 74 56 1.32 28,034 57,503 07:08:55

33 matches, 12-21 (.57 W-L ratio), 36 kills, 27 deaths (1.33 K/D ratio) 11572 damage, 21663 XP gained, ~almost 3 hours played

So... feast or famine.

Here's the thing though - I'm not really having any famines. I have more sub-200 damage games with a sniper build.

At some point I got past the feast/famine thing. Admittedly it's a big shift in playstyle; I don't care a whole lot about where someones weak spots are, I care about what I'm going to blow off of them first and if I can catch them relatively alone. If so, I kill them. If not, I take a couple shots and stick to cover. You do everything you can to help your team in the first half of the match and survive to the last half, where you kill or help kill *everyone*. You do it old-school spatcat style. Sprint up and eat their ******* face. They'll twist, they'll back up, they'll do whatever, it doesn't matter. You run up and grab their ******* face badger style and you worry them to death.

Precision has a lot to recommend it and largely the game is built around it. If you're playing a Shawk you're probably sticking and moving. It's really more of a stick stick stick stick stick stick stick sort of weapon. You jump right up in their shit and curb-stomp them.

The big issue is, now that I've gotten past the awkward adjustment stage.... it's a hell of a lot more fun than PPCs and ACs. The only 'situational' thing I've found is 'don't get caught in the open alone'. Otherwise it's just moving up the terrain to get close.

Roland, on 02 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

This is pretty hillarious.

The results that people are getting are surprisingly good, I must admit. I'm somewhat tempted to perform some additional testing myself, although I'm also pretty apathetic towards the whole thing as I've lost a lot of interest in the game overall.

However, it's still interesting. I'd be interested to see more direct comparative testing over larger datasets.

It's a significant shift in how you approach a match. takes a little adjustment but now that I'm over that hump it's really very fun - very much a HULK SMASH! approach to MW:O, which I've never found works well with anything else. It's just got that NOMNOMNOMNOM feel to it.

Going to try a Shawk build. I don't like mediums and only have stats for 6 matches in a 2H, so it should be a pretty 'clean' representation. I'll keep screenshots every match so I've got some more detailed analysis.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 02 May 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

It depends how often you are ending up brawling with the LBX. It collects damage like Streaks (or dust). LBX does inflate damage numbers pretty easily IMO.




It can, but I wouldn't use it on your Shadowhawk build idea.



LET THE LBX META BEGIN.... only if Paul lets us.

Here's the fundamental thing that I learned that pushed me over the hump of feast/famine -

Inflated damage numbers are USEFUL. It's learning how to turn that into a viable advantage. You sandblast everyone you can, every chance you get, and it's almost like an extra arty strike now and again; the enemy has less armor and ends up missing significant chunks so when your teammates catch them it's an easier kill.

When I got that part down I picked up about a 0.4 jump in win/loss. That's about an extra win every 3rd match; that's nothing to sneeze at. It's disingenuous to say it's just 'inflated damage'. Done correctly that damage translates directly into wins. It's about learning to exploit opportunities you have to ignore with pinpoint weapons and being a consistent source of harm. If someone gets close, you hurt them. Every time, no matter if they twist or whatever. My average damage was close to 600/match; I carry 750 points of damage of LB10X ammo. It's really, really hard to get 600 damage out of 75 rounds of AC10 ammo. You can say that the damage you do put out is more likely to lead to a kill, but the damage you DON'T do is simply wasted.

There's a curve to that equation that pays off. It's finding a build that hits the right point on the curve. The jag build does that. 2xLB10X Atlas or Banshee, not so much. Going to play around with some Shawk builds to see if I can find one that fits.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm still trying to figure out a mech that has a variant that I would want to play where the LB would be the premiere weapon to choose.

Lights are out
Not putting it on a Cidada
BJ is out or you end up losing speed and meneuverability
No on the Hunchy (AC20 or go with a different variant)
Centurion doesn't make sense cause you've already got the missile option
Shadowhawk (see the Centurion)
Griffin doesn't have ballistics
Wolverine (see Centurion)
Jager is a maybe
Tbolt is a maybe
No on the Awesome
Victor has missile options
Atlas is a maybe

You could mix the LB and SRMs on the Cent, Shawk, and Wolv along with the Jager, Tbolt, Victor, and Atlas. The only problem, though, is you get to the point where you're putting in a lot of weight for scatter damage in a short range. At what point do you start to worry about not having anything to throw beyond 270m?

Again, this is the problem that grinds on me with the LB. I've got a weapon that SHOULD be good out to 900m but isn't. I've got a weapon where I'm investing 11 tons to do less damage at a slightly greater range than an SRM6 at 3 tons. And, at the end of the day, the only draw is a critical hit bonus that is only good once I've burned through the external armor. So, what does it really sync up with in terms of other weapons besides SRMs?

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

2xPPC 2x LBX10 CTF-3D is the way to go man.

[Trauglodyte]

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

2xPPC 2x LBX10 CTF-3D is the way to go man.

I did the double PPC/LB for like 5 months back last summer. Sold the 3D simply cause I hated it. The build was fun and I enjoyed it but you still end up wondering if you didn't end up wasting tonnage on something that you could have done better with missiles on a different chassis.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 02 May 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Here's the fundamental thing that I learned that pushed me over the hump of feast/famine -

Inflated damage numbers are USEFUL. It's learning how to turn that into a viable advantage. You sandblast everyone you can, every chance you get, and it's almost like an extra arty strike now and again; the enemy has less armor and ends up missing significant chunks so when your teammates catch them it's an easier kill.

Inflated damage names are MISLEADING. I just went explaining how MGs prior to the crit damage conversion to internals. People were saying "THEY WERE GREAT" when they did NOTHING OF GENUINE VALUE. The context of the damage numbers is important to understanding actual production over what is perceived as inflated numbers.

There is a reason why people say "efficiency" is punished. It's true. Missiles are inherently inefficient and is understood as such. It doesn't make them bad, but it matters to how said numbers are applied.

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When I got that part down I picked up about a 0.4 jump in win/loss. That's about an extra win every 3rd match; that's nothing to sneeze at. It's disingenuous to say it's just 'inflated damage'. Done correctly that damage translates directly into wins. It's about learning to exploit opportunities you have to ignore with pinpoint weapons and being a consistent source of harm. If someone gets close, you hurt them. Every time, no matter if they twist or whatever. My average damage was close to 600/match; I carry 750 points of damage of LB10X ammo. It's really, really hard to get 600 damage out of 75 rounds of AC10 ammo. You can say that the damage you do put out is more likely to lead to a kill, but the damage you DON'T do is simply wasted.

I'm not sure the part where you skipped that my W-L ratio suffered. I'm sure I could have done better, but it would be closer to a 1-1 W-L ratio, vs the +1 K-D when I was still experimenting with the 2D's pre-elited grinding.

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There's a curve to that equation that pays off. It's finding a build that hits the right point on the curve. The jag build does that. 2xLB10X Atlas or Banshee, not so much. Going to play around with some Shawk builds to see if I can find one that fits.

There probably is, but then again, I have to have another weapon to do the evil deed (aka, moar med lasers!) That's not exactly what I call "in demand".

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

2xPPC 2x LBX10 CTF-3D is the way to go man.

You are making my inner mech jesus cry.

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Shadowhawk (see the Centurion)

Say whaaaaaaaaaaa?

I did all my tests with an XL Shadowhawk. Surely you can find a way to properly brawl?

Shadowhawk is probably the best medium dakka platform of choice... can't think of a better one at the moment.

Edit: The Trebuchet-7K is the best one... but it doesn't have JJs and it's Paul's meta... so...

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Victor has missile options

SAY WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA????

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Atlas is a maybe

*insert pic of mech falling over*

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You could mix the LB and SRMs on the Cent, Shawk, and Wolv along with the Jager, Tbolt, Victor, and Atlas. The only problem, though, is you get to the point where you're putting in a lot of weight for scatter damage in a short range. At what point do you start to worry about not having anything to throw beyond 270m?

Put in LRMs or LL/PPCs. Magic!

Quote

Again, this is the problem that grinds on me with the LB. I've got a weapon that SHOULD be good out to 900m but isn't. I've got a weapon where I'm investing 11 tons to do less damage at a slightly greater range than an SRM6 at 3 tons. And, at the end of the day, the only draw is a critical hit bonus that is only good once I've burned through the external armor. So, what does it really sync up with in terms of other weapons besides SRMs?

Medium lasers?

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I did the double PPC/LB for like 5 months back last summer. Sold the 3D simply cause I hated it. The build was fun and I enjoyed it but you still end up wondering if you didn't end up wasting tonnage on something that you could have done better with missiles on a different chassis.

I hate to say this, but the 3D is the best poptart I have to work with over the Victor and Highlander at this point in time. Heck... if I decided to brawl....

Edited by Deathlike, 02 May 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[El Bandito]

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm still trying to figure out a mech that has a variant that I would want to play where the LB would be the premiere weapon to choose. Lights are out Not putting it on a Cidada BJ is out or you end up losing speed and meneuverability No on the Hunchy (AC20 or go with a different variant) Centurion doesn't make sense cause you've already got the missile option Shadowhawk (see the Centurion) Griffin doesn't have ballistics Wolverine (see Centurion) Jager is a maybe Tbolt is a maybe No on the Awesome Victor has missile options Atlas is a maybe You could mix the LB and SRMs on the Cent, Shawk, and Wolv along with the Jager, Tbolt, Victor, and Atlas. The only problem, though, is you get to the point where you're putting in a lot of weight for scatter damage in a short range. At what point do you start to worry about not having anything to throw beyond 270m? Again, this is the problem that grinds on me with the LB. I've got a weapon that SHOULD be good out to 900m but isn't. I've got a weapon where I'm investing 11 tons to do less damage at a slightly greater range than an SRM6 at 3 tons. And, at the end of the day, the only draw is a critical hit bonus that is only good once I've burned through the external armor. So, what does it really sync up with in terms of other weapons besides SRMs?

It's speed is faster than regular AC10 (1100 vs 950), but is still a bit slower than PPC (1500). Ideally if you Alpha the LBX with a Double PPCs (for example, using a Victor), the PPCs will first burn through the armor and the LBX slugs that impacts right afterwards can seek some crits.

An Atlas D or D-DC can field Double LBX to go with the Double PPCs. Double the crit seeking.

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

2xPPC 2x LBX10 CTF-3D is the way to go man.

It runs too hot. Atlai are better choice IMO.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

What I was saying, Death, is that the LB fills the same role as the missile. So, when you have a platform that has both ACs and missiles, why would I take the LB in that slot when I can put in something better and still use LRMs or SRMs to fill the niched provided by the LB?

[El Bandito]

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

What I was saying, Death, is that the LB fills the same role as the missile. So, when you have a platform that has both ACs and missiles, why would I take the LB in that slot when I can put in something better and still use LRMs or SRMs to fill the niched provided by the LB?

SRMs have max range of only 270 meters, and LRMs have very slow speed. If you are pairing it with PPCs, then LBX is better for alphas because they will hit the same spot most of the time. If you don't care for alphas then missiles have their own use.

Besides, I hate it when I'm trying to aim at a section of a distant mech and LRM lock on animation obscures my crosshairs. Therefore I tend not to mix LDF with LRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Hunchies with an AC20 don't have much place at the start of the match and this can be a good finisher;
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f55dd0b72876e60
As for a brawling Shawk; http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c707b24eb444df6

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

What I was saying, Death, is that the LB fills the same role as the missile. So, when you have a platform that has both ACs and missiles, why would I take the LB in that slot when I can put in something better and still use LRMs or SRMs to fill the niched provided by the LB?

Oh believe me, I am 100% on board with SRMs are a straight up better alternative to LBX atm, but for the sake of argument, we're trying to find builds that make LBX not so shit.

The only success I've found is the PPC combo, but I've already stated it may be in part due to the fact I have PPC's on a jumping 3D.

The Victor might be a good choice, with PPC's and SRMs.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, it is possible to run the Victor 9S with an AC5, LB10, 2x PPCs with 2 tons/3 tons of ammo respectively and 2 JJs w/ a 275 standard engine. You're not getting a lot of speed but you're not getting hosed by the XL either. The ammo and heat is really what concerns me. I'd be tempted to drop a PPC and up engine it w/ some SRMs to backup the LB. Kind of meta-ish but still nothing that I'd be overly worried about.

[MischiefSC]

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

2xPPC 2x LBX10 CTF-3D is the way to go man.

I'll try that next. I suck with a Shawk but I'm trying an LB10X, 2MG, 1LL, 3 SSRM build. I may drop the SSRM *or* MGs. The MGs add a trickle of damage I found surprisingly useful with the Jag. We'll see if 2 of them are still useful.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 02 May 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

This is pretty hillarious.

The results that people are getting are surprisingly good, I must admit. I'm somewhat tempted to perform some additional testing myself, although I'm also pretty apathetic towards the whole thing as I've lost a lot of interest in the game overall.

However, it's still interesting. I'd be interested to see more direct comparative testing over larger datasets.

I'll be trying to keep track as I find time to play, though I am not promising fast results (between running with 2 clans and not wanting PGI to decide the LB-X needs a bloody nerf because it is actually situationally useful)

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I've broken over 1k damage with PPC+LBX combo, but I suspect PPCs are doing a good chunk of that work since the meta still greatly favors any loadout with 2xPPC.

The LBX do compliment them nicely though 90-200m where PPC's can strike first because of their higher velocity, then the LBX can almost gaurantee a shot at internals gaining their crit bonus.

I mean, its not BAD, but its not ideal.... now if LBX's did 1.4 damage a pellet I would love that combo even more.

If they did 1.4 damage per, the same BADs who cry about the big bad BoomJagers would forumrage and QQ til PGI nerfed them back to even their current level of usefulness...... As Paul's usually approach to balance demonstrates.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

If they did 1.4 damage per, the same BADs who cry about the big bad BoomJagers would forumrage and QQ til PGI nerfed them back to even their current level of usefulness...... As Paul's usually approach to balance demonstrates.

An extra 4 damage? Then again...they did cry about machine guns.

[Khobai]

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If they did 1.4 damage per, the same BADs who cry about the big bad BoomJagers would forumrage and QQ til PGI nerfed them back to even their current level of usefulness...... As Paul's usually approach to balance demonstrates.

1.4 is too high anyway. Do you really want LB10Xs doing more dps than an AC20? Plus thered be absolutely no reason to ever touch an AC10 then.

Again the best way to fix the LB10X is to make it a crit seeking weapon and revamp the crit system/internal structure values so critical hits matter more.

Quote

An extra 4 damage? Then again...they did cry about machine guns.

Its not just an extra 4 damage. Because its gets a 15% bonus to critical hit damage vs internal structure. So a 1.4 damage pellet would do 1.6/1.8/2.0 damage respectively on a x1/x2/x3 crit to internal structure. Thats a pretty hefty increase in damage given how often the LB10X gets crits.

By making it kill internal structure faster you defeat the entire purpose of the weapon which is to get crits. It should be harder to kill internal structure so critical hits matter more.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm still trying to figure out a mech that has a variant that I would want to play where the LB would be the premiere weapon to choose.

Lights are out
Not putting it on a Cidada
BJ is out or you end up losing speed and meneuverability
No on the Hunchy (AC20 or go with a different variant)
Centurion doesn't make sense cause you've already got the missile option
Shadowhawk (see the Centurion)
Griffin doesn't have ballistics
Wolverine (see Centurion)
Jager is a maybe
Tbolt is a maybe
No on the Awesome
Victor has missile options
Atlas is a maybe

You could mix the LB and SRMs on the Cent, Shawk, and Wolv along with the Jager, Tbolt, Victor, and Atlas. The only problem, though, is you get to the point where you're putting in a lot of weight for scatter damage in a short range. At what point do you start to worry about not having anything to throw beyond 270m?

Again, this is the problem that grinds on me with the LB. I've got a weapon that SHOULD be good out to 900m but isn't. I've got a weapon where I'm investing 11 tons to do less damage at a slightly greater range than an SRM6 at 3 tons. And, at the end of the day, the only draw is a critical hit bonus that is only good once I've burned through the external armor. So, what does it really sync up with in terms of other weapons besides SRMs?

It's funny, you would think the LB-X and SRMs would blend well, but in almost every build I have with them, just the opposite. The one that does seem to work well is my Misery, with an aSRM6, LB-X and LPL all in the torso. That seems to be a great infighting combo on it. But I've tried it on my CTF-2, my JM6-A, VTR-9B and just never get any good results.

I pair them with a lot of MG on a moderately fast mech, and bang, things click. I do use the LB-X with 3 SSRM racks on my WVR-6R and it works good against Lights, but it falls far behind my SHDs and GRFs in every other combat situation.

I'm sure other folks will find builds that work for them, but this is one of 3 builds I feature an LB-X on, in most cases, I do feel it is underwhelming, ESPECIALLY if used singularly. That in itself, I believe is one of the reasons that I (and maybe MischiefSC) have been a bit excited by this particular Jag build, because it works better than any of us thought it would/should/could. Now, I am not saying the LB-X couldn't still use a buff, but I am wondering what other weapon/Mech combos might synergize well with the LB-X.

Khobai, on 02 May 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

1.4 is too high anyway. Do you really want LB10Xs doing more dps than an AC20? Plus thered be absolutely no reason to ever touch an AC10 then.

Again the best way to fix the LB10X is to make it a crit seeking weapon and revamp the crit system/internal structure values so critical hits matter more.

I can see two flaws with this, even if I think 1.2/1.3 per is fine.

1) AC20 damage is focused. DPS, especially in large weapons, is a fools stat, overall. Elseways Gauss would be a fools weapon, yet for those who master it, it is one of the best on the field still.

2) AC10 is also focused, and does focused damage at ranges the LB-X is too spread to be overly effective.

I do think a reasonable trade off, if they did buff the pellets to 1.4 would be to take away the 3rd range bracket from the LB-X like they did the AC2, as a shotgun as an extreme range weapon makes no sense, anyhow.

[Deathlike]

mwhighlander, on 02 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Oh believe me, I am 100% on board with SRMs are a straight up better alternative to LBX atm, but for the sake of argument, we're trying to find builds that make LBX not so shit.

The only success I've found is the PPC combo, but I've already stated it may be in part due to the fact I have PPC's on a jumping 3D.

The Victor might be a good choice, with PPC's and SRMs.

This is the best I could do...
VTR-9S

I could probably squeeze in another DHS by shaving some of the armor...
Edit:

VTR-9S

Trauglodyte, on 02 May 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Well, it is possible to run the Victor 9S with an AC5, LB10, 2x PPCs with 2 tons/3 tons of ammo respectively and 2 JJs w/ a 275 standard engine. You're not getting a lot of speed but you're not getting hosed by the XL either. The ammo and heat is really what concerns me. I'd be tempted to drop a PPC and up engine it w/ some SRMs to backup the LB. Kind of meta-ish but still nothing that I'd be overly worried about.

~13DHS is needed to run 2PPC reasonably well (even on Mordor).

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

If they did 1.4 damage per, the same BADs who cry about the big bad BoomJagers would forumrage and QQ til PGI nerfed them back to even their current level of usefulness...... As Paul's usually approach to balance demonstrates.

Well... that's Paul being Paul. I'm still waiting for the "LBX is OP" thread (shhh... it'll randomly spawn as soon as I post this).

Edited by Deathlike, 02 May 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 May 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

I do think a reasonable trade off, if they did buff the pellets to 1.4 would be to take away the 3rd range bracket from the LB-X like they did the AC2, as a shotgun as an extreme range weapon makes no sense, anyhow.

This is what a lot of our mindset is aiming for. Since PGI is clearly not going to change LBX away from the shotgun mentality, might as well go the whole distance and up the damage to 1.4 per pellet (LB10 did 14 damage in Mw4 and was amazing) at the cost of cutting its Canon range of 540 down to say like 350 and its recycle from 2.5 to like 3.5 (so it doesn't out DPS an AC20 which is still pinpoint I might also add).

Bam, done, LBX is great and the revival of brawling will commence!

Share our dream Bishop! An LBX buff would be the answer to breaking the sniper meta!

Edited by mwhighlander, 02 May 2014 - 04:00 PM.