196 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Asmudius Heng, on 04 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

LRMs are only OP when used by a lance with a dedicated spotter and LRM BOATS.

3 stalkers unloading when you cant see them but an ECM spider can see you is the issue.

The ease of targeting indirecly and its effect is the problem but not in random games usually only with a dedicated team.

Is this good or bad? I just think indirect fire should be less effective apart form that LRMs are ok right now IMO

It it more, or less OP than a 4-man using PPC/AC meta mechs that are ALSO coordinating fire?

[Kjudoon]

Last night it wasn't my LRMs you needed to watch out for. After my missile bunkers ran dry I got two kills with my Mighty Medium Laser o' DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!

yes... one singular medium laser. And a very vicious TAG.

[Asmudius Heng]

Ghost Badger, on 05 May 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

It it more, or less OP than a 4-man using PPC/AC meta mechs that are ALSO coordinating fire?

Direct fire co-ordination is of course damaging as it should be but there is a difference.

1. They need to expose themself to return fire
2. It is harder to focus fire on the same target due to terrain and intervening mechs
3. Sustained DPS is hard because of the same issues and chasing an enemy can be very damaging.

As long as your spotter is good you can avoid these problems entirly. You can all instantly lock the target and unload until the spotter loses lock or the enemy dies. There is only risk to the spotter.

It takes way more co-ordination for 4 direct fire mechs to kill an enemy than with 3 LRM boats and a spotter.

This being said LRMs can still be shut down by ECM and certain maps are better or worse for LRMs etc ... LRMs are still situational ... but on a good map for LRMs they can be devestating indirectly.

A 4 man using AC PPC and jump jets are also extremely powerful for similar reasons that using JJs makes focusing fire much easier as they can avoid terrain clutter, and they can reduce incoming fire greatly because they only expose themself for a short period of time.

The fundamental ideas that focus fire without taking damage yourself is optimal needs to be applied when thinking about game balance. When weapons short cut the skill of team co-ordination they need to have some sort of downside to balance it.

[MortVent]

LRMs are balanced. It requires at least 2 people working together to really use them... effectively.

No other weapon system has a hard counter (ecm), or requires secondary systems to work well (Artemis, TAG, BAP, NARC). Or requires a spotter for damage output.

If you think lrms are nasty, just wait till I can mount arrows on my cats... and narc becomes the shoulder tap of doom...

[Motörhead]

Not always, for example on an LRM 30+A with TAG you can spot, fire and do it pretty much on your own.

Take this :

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...290dea67532e9f2

about 33 damage to CT, to TAG and lock with artemis it takes like 0.5 secs.

Indirect fire it's quite nice as it is, easy countered, but if you start bad, say loose 3-4 ppl to 1, and now the LRM+A boats, and not the build I posted, can play with direct fire then it becomes scary, because those awesomes, orions or stalkers with lrm50+A can core anything in 2 salvos with LOS, never overheat and keep firing.

I think LRMs are fine, just that when mounting Artemis LRM range should be like 700 meters so the user has to try to join the battle at least. (and he goes in PPC/ACs/ERLLAS range)

Edited by fx8320, 06 May 2014 - 12:55 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

fx8320, on 06 May 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

Not always, for example on an LRM 30+A with TAG you can spot, fire and do it pretty much on your own.

Take this :

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...290dea67532e9f2

about 33 damage to CT, to TAG and lock with artemis it takes like 0.5 secs.

Indirect fire it's quite nice as it is, easy countered, but if you start bad, say loose 3-4 ppl to 1, and now the LRM+A boats, and not the build I posted, can play with direct fire then it becomes scary, because those awesomes, orions or stalkers with lrm50+A can core anything in 2 salvos with LOS, never overheat and keep firing.

I think LRMs are fine, just that when mounting Artemis LRM range should be like 700 meters so the user has to try to join the battle at least. (and he goes in PPC/ACs/ERLLAS range)

Biggest problem with your post is that you'd have to EXPOSE your self as an LRM boat to counter fire from your opponents. Since you're running an XL engine (as an LRM boat, you absolutely should, unless you want to mount 4 tons of ammo and still be way at the back of the team) you will die horribly and quickly. Back up weapons lessen the risk, but you will never survive against a 4 LL 2ML Jester charging you. Not to mention that you will be useless as soon as they enter the 180 meter range, which they will as soon as they get visual on you.

As for the Artemis suggestion, well, I don't see a logical reason for why that should be the case. You're punishing players who are already already sacrificing an extra slot, and an extra ton per launcher to get a small increase to grouping, by also reducing their range? That's from a mechanical point of view.

Now from a technology point of view, Artemis guidance shouldn't have an impact on the range, all it does is tell the missile fins to move better as they curve into their target.

[Koniving]

A better solution to an LRM problem -- which I'm referring to the only problem with them -- is to reduce their firing rate by increasing the cooldown time.

Right now they do good damage, but their firing rate is insanely overdone. Nonstop pelting is possible. Cut their firing rate in half, and double their damage (as there's a lot more risk for misses and there's nothing wrong with the DPS; the problem is the endless spam that gives players no chance to counter a boat at range or to get into cover).

LRM 20, 4.75 seconds per volley from it? Make that 9.5 seconds. 22 damage from that LRM-20? Now 44 damage. Don't wanna get caught by it. But it's better than this...

Or this...


And the long time between shots means instead of boating pure missiles, you'll pack a lot of other weapons too because you don't have a chance if something is rushing at you. Not when it's between 8 and 9 and a half seconds to fire again.
Otherwise, you'll have this experience.

Or this experience.

[IraqiWalker]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Cake

I really enjoy that idea. It makes more sense, it also means that missing is a bigger risk, instead of people just lobbing LRMs 24/7. It would also stop the 6 LRM 5 launcher from being the wheel of cheese that it is. It also makes LRMs hitting an enemy more of a threat.

I'm tired of launching 50 missiles on my opponent only to see that each missile barely tickled their armor. Making the volleys take longer to launch again manes that targeting, spotting, and positioning will be even more important. At the same time, it stops LRM mechs from being unreasonably good at suppression. Yeah one mech should be able to suppress enemies, but it shouldn't be able to pin them down just as good, if not better than a dual AC2 mech on constant fire.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 May 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Koniving]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I really enjoy that idea.

Then throw your like on the idea!

[focuspark]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

A better solution to an LRM problem -- which I'm referring to the only problem with them -- is to reduce their firing rate by increasing the cooldown time.

You'd have to up their heat too, but this is a solid solution.

[IraqiWalker]

focuspark, on 06 May 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

You'd have to up their heat too, but this is a solid solution.

Considering the cycle time, upping the heat won't really have much of an impact. It also seems like a punishment for mounting LRMs with backup weapons.

[focuspark]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Considering the cycle time, upping the heat won't really have much of an impact. It also seems like a punishment for mounting LRMs with backup weapons.

With LRMs which caused double damage, that would be the idea - otherwise there's no penalty for having godly alpha strike abilities.

[HighTest]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Right now they do good damage, but their firing rate is insanely overdone. Nonstop pelting is possible. Cut their firing rate in half, and double their damage (as there's a lot more risk for misses and there's nothing wrong with the DPS; the problem is the endless spam that gives players no chance to counter a boat at range or to get into cover).

Normally, LRMs don't bother me that much. Many times I can evade them, or at least shake off a number of missiles. And sometimes I can't, to which I usually say "Good shot there, Mr. LRM boat. You got me." I don't at all mind giving props where props are due.

But for the first time in a very long time, this afternoon, I managed to face a ROFLpult. He waited until I was far enough in from 1000m that I couldn't retreat. I didn't see him, and I was chasing down one of his Atlas buddies. THEN the stream started... volley after volley after volley. Sadly, there isn't a lot of cover on Alpine Peaks, and the small hills that are there aren't enough to block the current trajectory. So down I went.

Is it currently 'legal'? Sure. Did I say "Good shot there, Mr. LRM boat. You got me."? Nope. I think it was more like "!@#%^$!@#^!&^%@# cheating !%$#Q^%$#!!!". Did he get my respect or my props? Nope. But I'm sure he'll still sleep fine tonight.

Sadly, there will always be those that exploit the system. Perhaps PGI needs to drum up some sort of "Ghost heat" for LRM spam... Frankly, it's just a different 'type' of boating that ghost heat doesn't fix. It's not so bad for ballistics or energy weapons since you still have to, I dunno, AIM. But for LRMs all you have to do is mash the LRM button and laugh your way to the bank.

(I'm not sure doubling the recycle time and damage will help -- I think that might break the relative balancing against other weapons even further. Sorry Koniving.)

[Koniving]

HighTest, on 06 May 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

(I'm not sure doubling the recycle time and damage will help -- I think that might break the relative balancing against other weapons even further. Sorry Koniving.)

It'll cut back the spam. Even a roflpult will have to cut its rate. But more ghost heat -- that'll make everyone made, and it won't help. We ignore ghost heat already. It's a joke; a laughing stock. PGI isn't interested in reducing the thresholds which would fix lots of things. So we have what we have.

Though I appreciate the feedback.

Btw, Roflpults face ghost heat already. It doesn't do much.



As you can see, ghost heat is a laughing stock that we just ignore. More ghost heat? I feel it will kill the weapon, not the spam. Then we'll have more PPC boats.

[HighTest]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

It'll cut back the spam. Even a roflpult will have to cut its rate. But more ghost heat -- that'll make everyone made, and it won't help. We ignore ghost heat already. It's a joke; a laughing stock. PGI isn't interested in reducing the thresholds which would fix lots of things. So we have what we have.

Sorry - I should have spoken more literally. I didn't mean "Ghost heat" as in to apply another heat mechanic -- rather, as some sort of non-canon way of discouraging this type of LRM boating behavior. It doesn't need to be heat-related at all.

My bad.

[Cart]

About a week ago, we made some 12-man fun drops...a few of the with much LRMs...I mean 11 boats and 1 spotter...and had the same enemy team for 3 matches in a row...

• In the first match, they had bad luck...we hit them in the open field on Toumaline..."and the sun(s) went dark, because of all the missles"...we just slaughtered them...
  
• The scound game was on River-City Night...and they were not dumb...some went in the tunnel of the upper base, some just stood under the wings of the drop-ship...all we could do was a little "pewpew" with our med-lasers...I don't need to say, that they slaughtered us...
  
• The third was on Terra...we stayed out of the center, to make the best out of it, but it got really close...we won with 12:10 or something like that, but it could have been easily the other way...

To say it short: If you got cought cought in the open in slow mech without ECM and/or AMS you just had bad luck or were really dumb...there are much ways to not get eaten by LRMs...as many people here said...


Sure, sometimes, if you had that bad luck, it can be quite frustrating...but to post something like that and quit the game...no...not really...

Edited by Cart, 06 May 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

HighTest, on 06 May 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Normally, LRMs don't bother me that much. Many times I can evade them, or at least shake off a number of missiles. And sometimes I can't, to which I usually say "Good shot there, Mr. LRM boat. You got me." I don't at all mind giving props where props are due.

But for the first time in a very long time, this afternoon, I managed to face a ROFLpult. He waited until I was far enough in from 1000m that I couldn't retreat. I didn't see him, and I was chasing down one of his Atlas buddies. THEN the stream started... volley after volley after volley. Sadly, there isn't a lot of cover on Alpine Peaks, and the small hills that are there aren't enough to block the current trajectory. So down I went.

Is it currently 'legal'? Sure. Did I say "Good shot there, Mr. LRM boat. You got me."? Nope. I think it was more like "!@#%^$!@#^!&^%@# cheating !%$#Q^%$#!!!". Did he get my respect or my props? Nope. But I'm sure he'll still sleep fine tonight.

Sadly, there will always be those that exploit the system. Perhaps PGI needs to drum up some sort of "Ghost heat" for LRM spam... Frankly, it's just a different 'type' of boating that ghost heat doesn't fix. It's not so bad for ballistics or energy weapons since you still have to, I dunno, AIM. But for LRMs all you have to do is mash the LRM button and laugh your way to the bank.

(I'm not sure doubling the recycle time and damage will help -- I think that might break the relative balancing against other weapons even further. Sorry Koniving.)

I like your thoughts on the topic, I've been doing LRM boats for a while (my current favorite is this baby, NOTE: Ammo locations, Armor values, and DHS locations are not accurate), and for ones like mine, even if you get caught out for 2 seconds, I'll still be able to land a veritable avalanche of missiles on you. With the current rate of fire, and how much ammo I can carry (used to have about 3000 missiles in this mech before I cut down) I will be able to sustain fire for minutes on end. Without worrying about missing half my salvos.

With increased cycle time, I will be more worried about firing a salvo that will miss. Right now I can fire a a full alpha strike and not even be bothered for missing the whole batch, because it's gonna take me about 3 seconds before I can launch another slavo.

[Furiel]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I really enjoy that idea. It makes more sense, it also means that missing is a bigger risk, instead of people just lobbing LRMs 24/7. It would also stop the 6 LRM 5 launcher from being the wheel of cheese that it is. It also makes LRMs hitting an enemy more of a threat.

I'm tired of launching 50 missiles on my opponent only to see that each missile barely tickled their armor. Making the volleys take longer to launch again manes that targeting, spotting, and positioning will be even more important. At the same time, it stops LRM mechs from being unreasonably good at suppression. Yeah one mech should be able to suppress enemies, but it shouldn't be able to pin them down just as good, if not better than a dual AC2 mech on constant fire.

But if you make those changes then I'd have to rebuild my total and complete cheese mech...

Jager-A with 4xALRM-5 and 2xAC2.

It doesn't do a ton of damage, but it's hilariously fun to play because of the complete cheese and troll factor of putting a constant stream of both missles and AC rounds on someone when they expose themselves. If you get someone timid you can hold a choke point for a LONG time with it.

[IraqiWalker]

Furiel, on 06 May 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

But if you make those changes then I'd have to rebuild my total and complete cheese mech...

Jager-A with 4xALRM-5 and 2xAC2.

It doesn't do a ton of damage, but it's hilariously fun to play because of the complete cheese and troll factor of putting a constant stream of both missles and AC rounds on someone when they expose themselves. If you get someone timid you can hold a choke point for a LONG time with it.

I can imagine. This thing seems like a giant wheel of dairy. I think you'd still be able to make it work, you won't fire the LRMs as quickly as usual, but the AC2s will still shake them enough to compensate. So maybe the pilot won't get as hard a case of whiplash as before. It'd still work.

[HighTest]

IraqiWalker, on 06 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

With increased cycle time, I will be more worried about firing a salvo that will miss. Right now I can fire a a full alpha strike and not even be bothered for missing the whole batch, because it's gonna take me about 3 seconds before I can launch another slavo.

Good point. Especially from an LRM boat pilot.

Perhaps Koniving's idea will work... but maybe double-double isn't the right answer. Maybe +33% on both sides or something. Or asymmetrical -- 50% on recycle, 33% on damage. Or whatever.

I'm by no means an LRM user, but I do have one or two LRMs on a couple of mechs. I'm not sure that I'd like to have to wait 8-9 seconds to use my weapons again.

Besides -- you may be increasing damage to compensate for the additional recycle delay, but that doesn't compensate for the time your target has to realize the situation and bail. So there is also an intangible that needs to be worked into the math too.

The problem with balancing LRMs is that with energy or ballistics, despite some nuances, they are basically similar -- aim, and shoot. With LRMs, you get the benefit of spotting assists, no need for line of sight, an arcing trajectory, etc. So they have some inherent advantages / disadvantages (read: differences) from the other two that make comparing them a lot harder.

With energy weapons, PGI created 'ghost heat' to deter boating. But they left individual weapon stats basically the same. I'm wondering if they can do something 'equivalent' for LRMs too, rather than messing with balance further, which even I agree as a non-LRM user (mostly) is currently in a decent place. Maybe like forcing all LRMs stored in a particular location to fire at once instead of chain fire. (ie. So for a ROFLpult, 2 volleys of 15 over 4 secs instead of 6 volleys of 5 over 4 secs.) Blame it on the crappy lostech targeting computers available in 3050 -- it takes them longer to get a fix and code the missiles or something.