196 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Zerberus, on 07 May 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Not really, becasue all 20 missiles from a volley would still be impacting at the same time. Not saying I dislike the idea, I`m still on the fence about it, I just don`t think hit detection would actually improve noticably without actual tweaks to the engine, becasue the amount of explosions /second on impact remains the same, but the event itself just happens less often.

The game is limited 36 explosions at the same milisecond. If LRMs stream-fired like the clan mechs will, it's not even an issue.

And if firing them is so rare, one of two things happen. You increase your chances by firing them at different intervals, or you strip down to one because you haven't got a chance in the world if you're trying to boat it all into one shot just to get that kill, because it'll be 9.5 seconds (worst case) before you can try again, and they'll have killed you in 4 seconds once they get to you.

Edited by Koniving, 07 May 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Zerberus]

^^ Assuming that`s correct (which I have no reason to doubt) then, rationally, where would the room for Hit reg improvement even be outside of boats running 40x /volley?

Of course it gets tighter when you go to the edge case of 12 boats at 40+ tubes, but with volleys that large you aren`t (usually) spamming full volleys and /or the different launcher sizes will stagger if you hold down the button.. and then consider that the the game could still handle (40-4) x12 missile impacts in 12 ms.

And it`s still highly unlikely for all the missiles from all the boats to consistently hit the target at the same time +/- 5ms....

Again, I just don`t really see the potential to improve HR much by simply reducing RoF.

Most of the whining will probably get twice as loud, though, because bads will still die twice as fast to missiles doing double damage....

Edited by Zerberus, 07 May 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Koniving]

Well hit detection would improve when there's many boats at once? Honestly anyone being hit would die exactly as fast as they do now.
Just instead of one long...(first 28 seconds of this).


It'd be just as dangerous, with fewer hits, less spam, requiring the same amount of time to drop just as dead, and give a reason to have this to help you out.

"Warning: Targeted." "Warning: Missile Lock." "Warning: Incoming missile."

And someone using this, would be completely helpless for more than 8 seconds after firing; discouraging its use to the point that it stops or becomes a joke build.


Back in closed beta, this is what an Atlas felt like. They were rare as heck because you drowned in debt if you lost even with basic stuff, let alone DHS, XL engines, etc.

And, That's what dual AC/20 mechs feel like, except they're made out of paper. That's what an LRM boat should feel like when it hits you, after all you're between 8 and 17 meters tall and an LRM-20 is literally 20 Stingers fired at you at once Against an Atlas in tabletop, if all 20 missiles hit that's 20 damage against 304 armor, reducing it down to 284 armor. In MWO, that'd be the same as being hit with a scattered dual LB-20 or the equivalent of 40 damage against your 608 armor, reducing you to 568.

Except unlike that Maus, a typical LRM boat is usually made of paper, requires a team to protect it. And after it fires, you have a lot of time to close the distance and butcher it, leaving it literally this helpless.


Currently in MWO, like AC/20s, you can fire LRM-20s 3 times in a 10 second window. So for double your armor, you get triple your shots. That's sort of the problem that annoys everyone on the receiving end. At least AC/20s are "Bang" and done. Missiles? It's a torrential downpour that'll last for days with blurry vision, being unable to see, distortions on your minimap, flashing red lights, dizziness, the whole schabang. For something FAR less dangerous but ultimately doing exactly the same thing, AC/2s, it got ghost-heated so bad that the boats for it were made completely worthless. In the end it'd be the same damage in the 10 second window, but only fired twice instead of 3 times, producing a lot less screen shake, allowing the players to be able to see and react without annoying them.

Edited by Koniving, 07 May 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[wanderer]

Innocent, on 07 May 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I wonder how many more people would be playing this game without attitude like this?

My only complaint about LRM is that every mech gets a default targeting computer that should take up crits and weigh 3 tons.

The LRM imbalance occurs when one team has several ECM mechs and missiles and the other team doesn't have ECM. Remove the ability for everyone to spot and only allow NARC/target laser to remotely allow lock ons. Make ECM increase the time required for a lock and not disable locks, this will allow non-ECM mechs to have a chance. This both buffs LRM by taking away the umbrella ECM protection and nerfs them by reducing the number of potential spotters.

Battletech allows anyone to spot, further it never needed multiple tons of equipment to do so in the first place.

Y'know what's better than LRMs + ECM though, right? Not using LRMs and having ECM while you laugh at the missile boats and riddle them with AC fire instead. Still.

Anything saying "NURF LRMS" is a player who doesn't play with enough ECM on their team. Simple as that. When the steering wheel underhive finally understands that ECM is a requirement in MWO, only then will the target practice cease.

[Flaming oblivion]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

It'll cut back the spam. Even a roflpult will have to cut its rate. But more ghost heat -- that'll make everyone made, and it won't help. We ignore ghost heat already. It's a joke; a laughing stock. PGI isn't interested in reducing the thresholds which would fix lots of things. So we have what we have.

Though I appreciate the feedback.

Btw, Roflpults face ghost heat already. It doesn't do much.



As you can see, ghost heat is a laughing stock that we just ignore. More ghost heat? I feel it will kill the weapon, not the spam. Then we'll have more PPC boats.

Lets not just make lrms useless when facing ecm cover , When the enemy gets under minimum range , with subpar counters to ecm , and sub par speed 80 kph is about tops for a serious lrm boat that has enough kick to make it worthwhile vs the many drawbacks they have , lets up the heat and reload time , So after this is done if you see a lrm user with a single lrm launcher in 500 fights its the only one you'll see.

[Greyboots]

Kjudoon, on 04 May 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Damage means diddly if you can't get kills. I can strip armor with the best of them. So what? The better you are at killing, the lower your damage goes while the higher your kill count. The only time this is not the case is when you're playing killsnake waiting for the time to fake being effective.

Absolute hogswash. Ever think the lower damage per kill you get is because some guy with a bunch of LRMs stripped back some armour for you?

So I pound the hell out of a mech until it's open and red raw. Then I'll switch to another mech and start in. Why would I keep throwing LRMs (especially in the long game) when someone else is there to take the kill shot? Absolute waste of ammo to do otherwise because LRMs are so damned slow.

I get my earnings from assists, saviour kills, component destructions, damage, spotting and tag/narc bonuses. I don't need to kill provided there's someone else there to take that shot. As long as I open up the target and make it as easy as possible? All good. Not to say I haven't gotten 6 kills in a match with an LRM boat but then again I don't panic and try to kill what's close to me with backup weapons. I let my team do that, pick someone else further back with armour holes and start in on them instead. Easy Peasy.

The funniest thing? I've got a Battlemaster S with 4 LRM 10's. I'll flip between visible targets and fire precisely ONE rack at each. I won't hold locks and don't expect to do damage. Meanwhile my team is screaming "you can't hit, don't waste your ammo". I know I won't hit but watching all 4 scurry like ants when they hear "incoming missile" is hilarious. As long as they keep their heads down my team can advance to where they want to be, totally unchallenged so it's not like I'm wasting ammo, I'm just not doing any damage.

People fearing LRMs, and there's often no no real reason to, is allowing me to use them as a weapon of terror. I force them into ineffectiveness while they hide or force them into scattered groups all huddled around the ECM mechs (can you say "Artillery" boys and girls?).

All the rubbish floating around the traps about how damage is king, kills are king and all that other malarkey is absolutely flamin' hysterical.

Teamwork is king. The sooner people realise that the quicker they will start having a lot more fun in MWO. All that matters at the end of the day is that you win and they lose. After that cBills and XP will flow like the tears of noobs.

[Koniving]

Flaming oblivion, on 08 May 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Lets not just make lrms useless when facing ecm cover , When the enemy gets under minimum range , with subpar counters to ecm , and sub par speed 80 kph is about tops for a serious lrm boat that has enough kick to make it worthwhile vs the many drawbacks they have , lets up the heat and reload time , So after this is done if you see a lrm user with a single lrm launcher in 500 fights its the only one you'll see.

Nah, 'one or two launcher' mechs is what you'll see lots more of. This is because BOATING it will no longer be profitable in any way; too difficult, no defenses if you dedicate.

It's the boats that you'll stop seeing.

With more umph in a shot, you won't have a reason or need to boat anymore, you have the firepower you need. And if you over dedicate you'll be helpless, unable to do anything even if you stream your missiles, as it'll be half the streams we have now.

This means instead you'll need other weapons to defend yourself, and one to two launchers to devastate things at range if you're so lucky.

[Flaming oblivion]

Good luck making those 1 or two weapons not turn into a handicap when a full on brawler that can move faster then you makes a bee line for you , straight under your min range halve your fire powers gone , 2 lrms with a few back up weapons - your ast best average at range and at best average at close quarters , all out boat as long as you keep your distance your able to actually compete , (not out right beat infact your still weaker then most load outs) simply compete, The minute this is removed without a major nerf to ecm ams , and a major buff to lrm flight speed, I promise you the diversity of builds you see will decrease, And no one who isn't simply trolling there team will be using lrms , And if that happens I'll be leaving meta warrior online.

[MortVent]

Koniving, on 08 May 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Nah, 'one or two launcher' mechs is what you'll see lots more of. This is because BOATING it will no longer be profitable in any way; too difficult, no defenses if you dedicate.

It's the boats that you'll stop seeing.

With more umph in a shot, you won't have a reason or need to boat anymore, you have the firepower you need. And if you over dedicate you'll be helpless, unable to do anything even if you stream your missiles, as it'll be half the streams we have now.

This means instead you'll need other weapons to defend yourself, and one to two launchers to devastate things at range if you're so lucky.

Which would kill certain mech classes, right now they have a place in the meta (as counters to the poptart direct fire clones though indirect/suppressive fire)

My favorite rides are the catapult, and griffin. Both with primary missile loads (20/25 tubes on the griffions with back up weapons). Do I top damage all the time, rarely if at all. Usually stay around middle , but it's all good.

Do I spam small launchers? Nope, too easy for smart teams to eat the incoming with ams. So I rely on good sized launchers (usually 15s on the cats, the C1 I slapped 20s) and good amount of ammo with mediums/streaks as backups.

Do I make my thunderbolts (another chassis I'm slowly adapting to) the same. Yes and no, I mount maximum lrms for that chassis... and build up around it. Sure that means I got a lrm10 where most slap a srm launcher... but it gives me more tactical options (including suppressive fire to make someone move!)

Where adjusting the heat, speed, etc... would do absolutely nothing to really balance the game. It'd just neuter the only decent counter to the current poptart gunner meta...

[Koniving]

MortVent, on 08 May 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Where adjusting the heat, speed, etc... would do absolutely nothing to really balance the game. It'd just neuter the only decent counter to the current poptart gunner meta...

Poptarts don't move much. You can even dumbfire them. Dumbfiring example on moving targets using a trial stalker. That was back when LRMs were virtually worthless (too slow). Give them the recent LURMAGEDDON high speed that only lasted a patch, the high damage, and make them refire much less often and you'd have your poptart counter, great LRMs, and remove the spam that I have a problem with.

Though ideally the ability to pull up the Battlegrid and designate a target for your LRMs would work quite well too. You only need to hit them once with a heavy load. Example.

My problem at the moment is I'm not finding any poptarts. Just LRM boats and ECM lights.

Edited by Koniving, 08 May 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[MortVent]

Koniving, on 08 May 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Poptarts don't move much. You can even dumbfire them.
Though ideally the ability to pull up the Battlegrid and designate a target for your LRMs would work quite well too. You only need to hit them once with a heavy load.

My problem at the moment is I'm not finding any poptarts. Just LRM boats and ECM lights.

Wrong bracket >;3

But some matches it's ecm online, lrm online, or sniper online. Most of the time it's a mix of mechs and loadouts

Sometimes you run into a premade, with lances or such that build around a certain group style (I know I've have teamspeak groups where they know my missile preference in mechs and someone brought tag or a narc... or a medium tagged along as backup wingman for my cats to keep lights away)

It's not the individual mechs that's the problem, or the tools on the mechs. It's how they are used in a team dynamic that makes them seem overpowered or extremely underpowered. (good team, lrms work great... bad team, you wish you brought something else)

[Flaming oblivion]

And that's the problem in 9/10 pugs lrms are made pathetic by your allies , Because they wont deal with ecm the lights wont spot tag/ narc They'd rather you go and tag then the entire team turns around on you because your now vulnerable..... In a situation the light had the speed to control and get out of relatively untouched , your either heavily damaged or dead. Because you had to do a job your mech wasn't designed to do , ggclose allies ggclose.

[IraqiWalker]

Flaming oblivion, on 08 May 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

Good luck making those 1 or two weapons not turn into a handicap when a full on brawler that can move faster then you makes a bee line for you , straight under your min range halve your fire powers gone , 2 lrms with a few back up weapons - your ast best average at range and at best average at close quarters , all out boat as long as you keep your distance your able to actually compete , (not out right beat infact your still weaker then most load outs) simply compete, The minute this is removed without a major nerf to ecm ams , and a major buff to lrm flight speed, I promise you the diversity of builds you see will decrease, And no one who isn't simply trolling there team will be using lrms , And if that happens I'll be leaving meta warrior online.

Any proper LRM boat worth their salt would have back up weapons. My BLR-1S has 4MLs in it for backup. That's 20 points of damage every few seconds, and it's insanely easy to hit them all in the same spot.

Also, if a brawler got in close, that's your own fault, and your team's fault, and the brawler deserves the rewards of wrecking you. I always tell people at the start of the match that I have lots of LRMs (about 2500), they get me locks. When I'm threatened, I tell them LRM boat needs backup at [coordinates]. Usually, I'm alive afterwards.

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 09 May 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Any proper LRM boat worth their salt would have back up weapons.

Not if you read Victor's oh-so-perfect guide - that is tonnage wasted that could be going to ammo!!!11!

[IraqiWalker]

Shar Wolf, on 09 May 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Not if you read Victor's oh-so-perfect guide - that is tonnage wasted that could be going to ammo!!!11!

Yeah, but Victor and I disagree on a LOT of things, that would be one of them. Let's see how his LRM boat does when my LCT-3M sits under it's crotch with 2 AMS whittling away at his volleys, and shooting it in the face.

Also, how much more ammo do you need? I can make my BLR carry around 3000 rounds. That's more than enough to turn the entire battlefield into a big crater. Of course, his builds have the huge problem of mandating Artemis, which I ignore on mechs with multiple launchers (like the BLR) saves me 4 tons and 4 slots, which more than compensate for the spread, and then some.

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 09 May 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Of course, his builds have the huge problem of mandating.....

First rule of rules: There are exceptions to every rule in life, including and excluding this one.

Victor also mandated a certain speed - but only had one chassis that could fit all his requirements.


Lets leave the poor boy alone though (before we get into trouble for name and shame!)

[IraqiWalker]

Shar Wolf, on 09 May 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

First rule of rules: There are exceptions to every rule in life, including and excluding this one.

Victor also mandated a certain speed - but only had one chassis that could fit all his requirements.


Lets leave the poor boy alone though (before we get into trouble for name and shame!)

Agreed on all of the above.

I heard cats are fluffy this time of year.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Koniving, on 08 May 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Poptarts don't move much.

Sorry Kon, but the game has changed too much for that statement to be true anymore. If we were to roll back time to the start of 2014, this was the case. PPC+Gauss had just changed to PPC+AC5 or even PPC+AC10 for closer distances. VTR and HGN could be decent brawlers since they could use JJs to do quick turns. So there weren't many disadvantages to simply choosing a position and then poptarting from that position. In fact, the key to the game was choosing which position to hold, and hold everybody did.

However, since the AC5 and AC10 speeds were reduced, pinpoint sync with PPC at greater than 300m became hard, unless the target isn't moving. Then the famous VTR/HGN nerfs were introduced. As a result, if you poptart from a static position you eat a lot of shots at CT and your shots aren't very effective unless they get close. And when they get too close, you can't spread damage nor get away quickly due to JJ and movement nerfs.

So after a very short time, at the top level most moved to XL engines: the game is then much more fluid. The goal now is to catch enemy units left behind by their teammates, isolate it, and then kill it. You see top players forgoing an HGN for a VTR due to speed, even in class-based matches.

Of course the problem is at the not-so-top level. There are still poptart pilots who don't get this. They jump-snipe from a static position, and then they lose. Basically they insist on a meta that has pretty much gone past its expiration date. Similar to LRMs, similar to other techniques. I see lots of entire teams -- not just one or two pilots -- sit back in their BLR, AS, STK missile boats expecting others to spot for them and to hold the enemy team at bay. It can work occasionally, but never consistently against teams that play smart.

Now on to the key issue: for a tactic to be viable, useful, or useless, it depends on how it fits with the "pool of players and teams."

I don't know what has changed in MM in the last few weeks, but when I pug solo I find myself mostly lumped with a premade team that's either too good or too bad. These days mostly the latter. I'm glad that there are many new players joining the game, but lack of useful social tools and desertion of many competitive players to the lobbies means matches tend to be lopsided, and I feel that very few good examples are set for others to learn from. I think that the ability to cockpit-spectate matches after you are killed is really great. I have learned a lot from early death, and also from a good player spectating through my view and giving advice. Nowadays I just hear lots of rage about "lame poptart, so boring" when a good team of VTRs maneuver around static LRM boats and absolutely wreck them. Or "haha take that poptart" when a team of poptart pilots decided to stay where they are and get obliterated. Not to come across like an ass, but I know a good pilot when I see one, either by name (yes, it's a small community) or by action, so I know which is which.

And of course, when I get killed and spectate from the cockpit of a completely fresh Atlas ambling its way to the fight, I cry a little. Not that I want to win every single time, but I want a hard fight. I realize that in when I started out I too cherish the few wins regardless of how they were won, and I put up with lots of mediocre matches in between. So I understand there are good reasons that LRM boating is appealing to newer players. But the poor game mechanics (terrain/pebble restrictions, lack of info on ghost heat, HSR issues, SRM issues) understandably makes it hard for a new player to maybe even want to learn beyond LRMs. And I completely understand too that many teams just want to wreck faces, they don't want to adjust or get a challenge.

Anyway, if this poor MM keeps up I'm going to take a break. I'm getting tired of watching my team get killed and having to try a comeback when I'm already down 0-8 within minutes. And I may then forever hoard my 1 million GXP. Mwahahahahahahahaa.


Edit: fix formatting issues.

Edited by Itsalrightwithme, 10 May 2014 - 04:48 AM.

[Alex Warden]

VXJaeger, on 03 May 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Member Since Yesterday, 09:33 PM
Offline Last Active Yesterday, 09:40 PM

Did you play even ONE match before you came here to QQ?

not with THIS account at least

[Itsalrightwithme]

IraqiWalker, on 09 May 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yeah, but Victor and I disagree on a LOT of things, that would be one of them. Let's see how his LRM boat does when my LCT-3M sits under it's crotch with 2 AMS whittling away at his volleys, and shooting it in the face.

Come on now, enough with the posturing.

Not to defend Victor Morson's pov but this game isn't a set of neatly 1v1 engagement. The point of having a fast LRM medium mech is that it could get away back to friendly lines and let somebody else take care of the Locust. He was banned from before the time LRM speed got a big buff, so his posts have to be considered in light of how the game was at the time it was written.

With the much higher LRM speed we have today it is much harder to run an effective medium LRM mech against assault LRM mech, this is fact. Prior to speed buff, at 400m you could launch your LRMs and get behind cover in the time it takes their LRM to hit you. With Adv Target Decay you keep your lock and get good hits while his/her missiles hit terrain in front of you. With the speed buff you have to be farther back to be able to do this consistently.

His guide was very much written with maneuver in mind, both yours, and the target's, and the opposing LRM boat's, all normalized to LRM speed. So if one variable changes, it has to be re-considered. Everybody can benefit from that level of thoughtfulness in analysis, even if other assumptions differ and the conclusions are different.