100 replies to this topic

[Redshift2k5]

LRM in large numbers are certainly dichotomous- they tend to either be painfully effective or ineptly ineffective, depending on the target's use of cover/ecm/etc. compared to direct fire, there are far more factors at play that affect both sides of the equation.

A single, supplementary LRM is a different story, and tends to be more consistent- neither as OP as LRM boating nor as weak to LRM countermeasures.

[D34K]

Flaming oblivion, on 03 May 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Yup lrms take no skill to use if you don't mind doing 0-150 damage every battle , They take the most skill out of all weapons to use if you want to beat 250 damage without getting obliterated .

Given that the perennial scrub favourite -- the LRM 60 Stalker -- does 66 points of damage in a single volley, I can only assume you haven't found the power button for your mech yet. That this damage doesn't require line-of-sight, or aim, and is delivered from ~1,000m, means you should be ashamed if you don't break 1,000 damage with some consistency.

The fix for the lurms is very straight forward. For one day, all of the teams from RHoD and MRBC, bring nothing but lurm boats to the public queue. The forums would crash under the weight of rage quit threads.

[Kilo 40]

the LRM 60 Stalker is a crappy mech. No one is going to [/color][color=#959595]1,000 damage with some consistency in one.

an LRM 6O anything is a crappy mech wasting tons. a C1 cat is miles ahead of a LRM 60 mech.

Edited by Kilo 40, 04 May 2014 - 12:33 AM.

[Keeshu]

LRMs are my favorite weapons in the game (though right now I don't use them much lately because I've been maxing out some non-missle mechs lately). Whether I'm shooting them, or being shot at. When I'm being shot at with normal weapons, they are too fast for you to dodge so I just keep doing what I'm doing. LRMs however, you have a chance to remove some of the damage you are taking, giving you the "OH CRUD" feeling before you can get to cover/out of sight, or at least hoping to run in a way to reduce the damage the LRMs are doing to you. Though, generally if you're taking damage from LRMs, you usually deserve the damage you are taking from them.



After reading the OP, seems to be just a problem with people being too LRM heavy (or flatout LRM boating). Yeah it does feel rock-paper-scissory if you bring ONLY LRMs (though I could say the same thing about boating other weapons like only medium lasers for example, pray that you don't get Alpine or Terra Therma)

Bumrushing is a terrible thing no matter what weapon the enemy is using. Would you really bumrush a PPC, Guass Rifle, large laser, ac/2/5 user when they are outranging you?

I'm not gonna go on with the LRM taking no skill thing as I find LRMs to be a different skillset (personally I find LRMs to be harder than normal weapons). I've seen plenty of people perform cringeworthingly bad with LRMs. With other weapons you just have to go in there, aim, and shoot (and watch your heat if you use energy).
I'm more worried about precision weapons than LRMs.

[AccessTime]

People say it is low skill, but there's far more to it than most realize (at least if you want to do it well).

Unskilled users might do fine when the adversary is making stupid mistakes, like charging in through open ground one mech at a time or not taking cover effectively. But when the enemy knows the basics of how to deal with LRM mechs, that's where the skill starts to come in -- bypassing cover, baiting, manuevering, improvisation, staying alive, etc.

I'm a strong believer in combined arms, I don't think one weapon type is dominant today. Teamwork is always essential, a good fire support lance can often get more kills than any other lance, but they don't do it alone. They are supporting the rest of the team, and the rest of the team is supporting them.

Edited by AccessTime, 04 May 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[ChewBaka]

Flaming oblivion, on 03 May 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

Yeah, just post a dumb pic without any justification whatsoever. I have nothing against Cats sporting a pair of LRMs.

Fact is Stalkers with 4-LRM15s are overpowered on maps like Alpine Peaks and are rather deadly in almost any other map.

If anything, I would like to now point you towards some other thread about Orions.
http://mwomercs.com/...-orion-to-pick/

It used to be that Orions were brawling mechs, but they're now being utilized as LRM boats.
ON1-V LRM Boat

And what it does is this:

[Kilo 40]

Charlie Pohr, on 03 May 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

- LRM boats ARE overpowered. A hail of 4-LRM15s can destroy before you can even blink. All things considered, I was happier with the PPC-Gauss meta. At least I was killed by someone who had to aim and I could return fire myself.
- Bum rush only works when your team are mobile enough. Unfortunately, the current meta hardly resembles canon where mediums are the most common. Everyone is in a slow heavy/assault these days with lots of big guns.
- Watching an Atlas trying to bum rush LRM boats is a sad sad sight indeed.
- Charging as a group requires that everyone move at the speed of the slower mechs. Being slow is a bad idea vs LRMs.
- Of course, the lights and mediums can attempt to charge ahead first...except they will run into a wall of heavier brawlers who can easily fend them away from the LRM boats. Meanwhile, their own team's heavies and assaults are being pounded by LRMs.
Fact is the the LRM buff has just made is absolutely necessary for your group to have LRMs of their own in order to counter. If you don't, than your team needs to have the mobility (and the courage) to charge them. If neither condition is met, you lose. Simple as that. Therefore, there is no bum rush counter like you said. That's a fairy tale, since hardly anyone drives mediums these days.

learn 2 flank

[TimePeriod]

The issue is not a lone LRM10/15 clowning about. The issue starts when a full lance of coordinated LRM users target one specific member of your team. That's some 3-400 damage which even my assault victor with 4 JJ's can't shrug off if caught out in the open to attack such a lance.

As for the whole idea of a tactical advance between cover, it does not work if I have to go out of cover for more then 10 seconds.

Tactical advance from cover to cover only works if there is cover to be used, that is very situational and you will not always be able to find cover which could 'cover' your entire 'Mech.

As for retreating out of LOS I've seen missiles do a full 90 degree turn around a building and smash into my backside after breaking the LOS with the LRM-dude which I was suppressing. Thank you module.

The list goes on but the LRM is not OP pr-say. It is just a very quick way to score some additional damage without much needed effort - which obviously is also its chosen intent.

[crossflip]

Redshift2k5, on 04 May 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

LRM in large numbers are certainly dichotomous- they tend to either be painfully effective or ineptly ineffective, depending on the target's use of cover/ecm/etc. compared to direct fire, there are far more factors at play that affect both sides of the equation.

A single, supplementary LRM is a different story, and tends to be more consistent- neither as OP as LRM boating nor as weak to LRM countermeasures.

TimePeriod, on 04 May 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

The issue is not a lone LRM10/15 clowning about. The issue starts when a full lance of coordinated LRM users target one specific member of your team. That's some 3-400 damage which even my assault victor with 4 JJ's can't shrug off if caught out in the open to attack such a lance.

As for the whole idea of a tactical advance between cover, it does not work if I have to go out of cover for more then 10 seconds.

Tactical advance from cover to cover only works if there is cover to be used, that is very situational and you will not always be able to find cover which could 'cover' your entire 'Mech.

As for retreating out of LOS I've seen missiles do a full 90 degree turn around a building and smash into my backside after breaking the LOS with the LRM-dude which I was suppressing. Thank you module.

The list goes on but the LRM is not OP pr-say. It is just a very quick way to score some additional damage without much needed effort - which obviously is also its chosen intent.

You guys are right, I guess. This thread is more about mass LRM use and boating rather than LRMs as a weapon themselves.
No other game allows this kind of thing to the extent at which MWO does. They're unique. That's both good and bad.

[Mycrus]

Only noobs complain about lurms. Fact.

lurms in fact need a buff.

[ShinVector]

Mycrus, on 04 May 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

Only noobs complain about lurms. Fact.

lurms in fact need a buff.

Think about what you said.. Everytime you get rained when your light is trying to do something.

[ChewBaka]

Kilo 40, on 04 May 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

learn 2 flank

That only works in some maps where there is adequate cover for a flanking advance. Also, once again...it relies on overall team mobility.

You drop with a team that is mostly slow-ass heavies and assaults with brawler builds, you and maybe another noob running around in a trial are only the lights...yeah...lrn2flank indeed...

Like I said...nothing against LRMs in general, but I question why LRM boats are not 'overpowered' but the other boats are. I would like to see some parity here. Penalize the quad LRM boats in some way.

[Kilo 40]

Charlie Pohr, on 04 May 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

That only works in some maps where there is adequate cover for a flanking advance. Also, once again...it relies on overall team mobility.

It works on every map. try it sometime. trust me, Line of Sight isn't OP and is easily countered.

Quote

Like I said...nothing against LRMs in general, but I question why LRM boats are not 'overpowered' but the other boats are. I would like to see some parity here. Penalize the quad LRM boats in some way.

I don't think other "boats" are over powered at all. I just learn to play against them.

[Lyoto Machida]

Charlie Pohr, on 04 May 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Yeah, just post a dumb pic without any justification whatsoever. I have nothing against Cats sporting a pair of LRMs.

Fact is Stalkers with 4-LRM15s are overpowered on maps like Alpine Peaks and are rather deadly in almost any other map.

If anything, I would like to now point you towards some other thread about Orions.
http://mwomercs.com/...-orion-to-pick/

It used to be that Orions were brawling mechs, but they're now being utilized as LRM boats.
ON1-V LRM Boat

And what it does is this:

Hey mom...I'm on TV!!!!!

But seriously...what does that really prove? That two guys playing together since Closed Beta can do big damage in an LRM Orion? Those other two Kuritans in our lance are not 9th Sword, nor were they in our TS channel.

If you don't feel that Orions should be carrying LRMs, then don't put LRMs on your Orions. If LRMs are so powerful, then show all the LRM dominance in 12 mans (where people presumably know how to play the game well).

Btw...that build you linked wasn't the build I was running but whatever...

Charlie Pohr, on 04 May 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

That only works in some maps where there is adequate cover for a flanking advance. Also, once again...it relies on overall team mobility.

You drop with a team that is mostly slow-ass heavies and assaults with brawler builds, you and maybe another noob running around in a trial are only the lights...yeah...lrn2flank indeed...

Like I said...nothing against LRMs in general, but I question why LRM boats are not 'overpowered' but the other boats are. I would like to see some parity here. Penalize the quad LRM boats in some way.

1) Don't drop in slow-ass heavies and assault brawler builds then.
2) LRMs have the most counters of any weapon system. I mean, they even have a visual and audible warning system...
3) If you think I was launching LRMs from 900m away behind a hill, you're free to believe that (even though that's not the case). Quad LRM boats like that (and the Orion you linked above) are already penalized...it's called ghost heat and 38+ tons of weapons that don't work under 180m.

[ChewBaka]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 May 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

1) Don't drop in slow-ass heavies and assault brawler builds then.
2) LRMs have the most counters of any weapon system. I mean, they even have a visual and audible warning system...
3) If you think I was launching LRMs from 900m away behind a hill, you're free to believe that (even though that's not the case). Quad LRM boats like that (and the Orion you linked above) are already penalized...it's called ghost heat and 38+ tons of weapons that don't work under 180m.

1) Like I get to control team balance in a PUG. That 3-3-3-3 system isn't going to work. Broken during launch already.
2) That audio warning is useless since the missiles have been sped up.
3) I don't think you are, because its dumb to launch from that distance. I have some experience playing LRM boats.
Also, don't take me out of context please. You only need about 3 or maybe 4 LRM boats on your team. The rest need to either spot or act as meat shields. That kind of setup always devastates a PUG and even 4-man group drops that get matched up with each other but the overall team isn't particularly balanced. Yes, I have dropped in 3 4-man groups where everyone is a brawler. What than?
Every time you drop in a PUG or with a small group, you have to cross your fingers and hope that your team has a decent balanced setup, else all it takes is a just a few LRM boats on their team and none on your own and you're screwed. Maybe they might not be that great vs a 12-man coordinated team, but they are devastating to PUGS and casual players.

This game is already unfriendly enough to newcomers. How many countless threads have already been started about how the LRM meta-game has been driving newcomers away? That what you really want?

Not everybody has the time or coordination to join a 12-man and be on the same team speak. Sometimes, we just want to PUG on our own a bit or merely play with a few other friends. This game shouldn't be just about 12 vs 12 with everyone on the same team speak channel. It should be possible for people to be able to grab a few games in their spare time and not have to deal with elitist bullshit.

Note that my original points were against the OP who suggested that LRMs can be countered by bum-rushing the other team. Every single thing I said still stands - bum rushes don't work in a PUG. Not ever. It just doesn't happen and I blame differing mech speeds more than lack of communication.

I'm going to refer to another thread on why bum rushes don't work:
http://mwomercs.com/...-just-happened/

Yeah yeah...blame them for advancing in the open but its bloody Alpine Peaks - a map which I've said should have been removed ever since LRMs were buffed. Take that map away and I think the complaints against LRM boats will die down quite significantly.

I don't mind facing them in River City, Forest Colony, etc. I just don't want to drop in Alpine Peaks, take a look at my team and see its all brawler variants and than the other side LRMs us to death.

[Mycrus]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

Think about what you said.. Everytime you get rained when your light is trying to do something.

they debuffed the lurm speed... lights can out run missiles again...

so a damage buff would be nice...

[Lyoto Machida]

Charlie Pohr, on 04 May 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

1) Like I get to control team balance in a PUG. That 3-3-3-3 system isn't going to work. Broken during launch already.
2) That audio warning is useless since the missiles have been sped up.
3) I don't think you are, because its dumb to launch from that distance. I have some experience playing LRM boats.
Also, don't take me out of context please. You only need about 3 or maybe 4 LRM boats on your team. The rest need to either spot or act as meat shields. That kind of setup always devastates a PUG and even 4-man group drops that get matched up with each other but the overall team isn't particularly balanced. Yes, I have dropped in 3 4-man groups where everyone is a brawler. What than?
Every time you drop in a PUG or with a small group, you have to cross your fingers and hope that your team has a decent balanced setup, else all it takes is a just a few LRM boats on their team and none on your own and you're screwed. Maybe they might not be that great vs a 12-man coordinated team, but they are devastating to PUGS and casual players.

This game is already unfriendly enough to newcomers. How many countless threads have already been started about how the LRM meta-game has been driving newcomers away? That what you really want?

Not everybody has the time or coordination to join a 12-man and be on the same team speak. Sometimes, we just want to PUG on our own a bit or merely play with a few other friends. This game shouldn't be just about 12 vs 12 with everyone on the same team speak channel. It should be possible for people to be able to grab a few games in their spare time and not have to deal with elitist bullshit.

Note that my original points were against the OP who suggested that LRMs can be countered by bum-rushing the other team. Every single thing I said still stands - bum rushes don't work in a PUG. Not ever. It just doesn't happen and I blame differing mech speeds more than lack of communication.

I'm going to refer to another thread on why bum rushes don't work:
http://mwomercs.com/...-just-happened/

Yeah yeah...blame them for advancing in the open but its bloody Alpine Peaks - a map which I've said should have been removed ever since LRMs were buffed. Take that map away and I think the complaints against LRM boats will die down quite significantly.

I don't mind facing them in River City, Forest Colony, etc. I just don't want to drop in Alpine Peaks, take a look at my team and see its all brawler variants and than the other side LRMs us to death.

That's the problem though...not all of the threads/posts complaining about LRMs are by new players. Some of them are even Founders that have never figured out a way to counter LRMs (cover/ECM/AMS/etc). I rarely die to LRMs and never take AMS...am almost never in an ECM mech nowadays. I attribute this to knowing where to position myself in regards to cover. Most people I know probably die 10x as much from ACs/PPCs than they do from LRMs. Yes, its anecdotal evidence but that's my experience.

As far as 3 or 4 LRM boats on a side, I'm not seeing it often in my games. I'm sure it happens but the higher up you go, the less you see it (and I am in no way a "top tier ELO" player).

After I typed that previous post, I dropped a couple games in that Orion V...one of them happened to be on Tourmaline with an ECM heavy opposition...didn't manage to get anywhere near 1000 damage. Sometimes you feast, sometimes you famine in PUGs with LRMs.

Also, I'm not saying you need to join and do 12 mans...the issues people have in PUGs have more to do with the matchmaker than LRM boats. Evidently, this game just doesn't have the playerbase to support grouping low ELO players with other low ELO players only.

Also, by reducing the effectiveness of LRMs, you hinder newer players, joystick users and people with bad framerates. Not everyone has the practice or hand eye coordination to be poptarting or running lights effectively.

If PGI really wanted to, they could have had LRMs track to "bones" like the SSRMs do...its either not that important to them or they don't have the ability to program it as such.

[Impyrium]

LRM based 'Mechs do require some skill, just not the same as direct fire 'Mechs. While DF 'Mechs are based on your ability to aim, fire accurately and keep your 'Mech in one piece, support 'Mechs need skill in positioning, judging and anticipating your foes movements and laying traps. This is not something many players get, especially the newbies, so you see them firing blindly and without much thought into what they're firing at.

If all LRM players were co-ordinated and intelligent, and worked with their team better, then LRMs would be far more dangerous.

[wanderer]

D34K, on 04 May 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

Given that the perennial scrub favourite -- the LRM 60 Stalker -- does 66 points of damage in a single volley, I can only assume you haven't found the power button for your mech yet. That this damage doesn't require line-of-sight, or aim, and is delivered from ~1,000m, means you should be ashamed if you don't break 1,000 damage with some consistency.

The fix for the lurms is very straight forward. For one day, all of the teams from RHoD and MRBC, bring nothing but lurm boats to the public queue. The forums would crash under the weight of rage quit threads.

That you actually think a LRM 60 actually HITS with all 60 missiles is a point one might make towards your bias.

And yes, you can stomp pubbies with LRMs 12-manning it all day every day, just like you can stomp them with 12-mans with any organized and reasonable force whatsoever, because LRMs are the bottom tier of "work together". That's where all the QQ comes from anyway- pubbies don't consider defense, ECM, or have the ability to focus and lack all but the most rudimentary forms of communication compared to a 12-man on TS.

If LRMs are "no-skill", their counters are even more so and have broader applications. I mean, seriously. Do you go into 12-mans without ECM set up? Not knowing where to take cover and watch "INCOMING MISSILES" slam into the nearest building or pound ground? Do you scatter in front of enemy forces and make it easier to cut off and focus fire you to death piecemeal?

It's the lack of fundamental defensive capacity that dooms most PUGs, regardless of whether you missile them to death or simply crush them under more efficient barrages of direct fire. LRMs are simply the first glaring way to point this out, as they are the simplest but most conditional form of force multiplier.

[Lynx7725]

wanderer, on 04 May 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

And yes, you can stomp pubbies with LRMs 12-manning it all day every day, just like you can stomp them with 12-mans with any organized and reasonable force whatsoever, because LRMs are the bottom tier of "work together". That's where all the QQ comes from anyway- pubbies don't consider defense, ECM, or have the ability to focus and lack all but the most rudimentary forms of communication compared to a 12-man on TS. [..] LRMs are simply the first glaring way to point this out, as they are the simplest but most conditional form of force multiplier.

So you're saying LRMs are the easy mode to teamwork?

I can live with that.