100 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

What am I complaining about ?
I am just showing a scenario where low cover can be used against a Poptart but useless against an LRM boat.
I am a Raven not a Stalker... I am small enough to hide behind low cover to making hidden from the victor's LOS. The only reason I move was because I am gettings LRMed as low cover was useless.



I have got nothing much to say to an 1 month old mwo padawan too. One day you will learn how to evade ppc+ac fire... Meanwhile go find Yoda to teach you...



My point being all direct fire weapons has it is weakness... Which is line of sight, even low cover can be very effective.
PGI might one day realise that the current LRM indirect fire mechanic is too cheesy and fix it... So enjoy it while you can...

On the other hand I am waiting for 3/3/3/3... I hoping more that LRM lovers will find themselves more vulnerable because they would be taking up precious heavy and assault slots.. Which is better spent on people who can defend themselves..
We will see how the game play evolves after tomorrow.

You are funny...just completely ignore the part of my post that illustrates that you don't know how to use cover. That LRM Stalker was in direct line of sight to you.

Since we're being humorous here, I'll just leave you my CN9-A stats...all done with LRMs. Not everyone needs 60 tubes to use LRMs well:



Since you must have missed it before, I'll post it again. Note the minimap and the direction from where the LRMs were hitting you from...it's all in the screenshots from your video. You weren't in cover:

[Damia Savon]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

What am I complaining about ?
I am just showing a scenario where low cover can be used against a Poptart but useless against an LRM boat.
I am a Raven not a Stalker... I am small enough to hide behind low cover to making hidden from the victor's LOS. The only reason I move was because I am gettings LRMed as low cover was useless.

Yes, you showed how hard it is to counter pop-tarting from behind cover. The cover was sufficient for you to pop-tart from behind because you were in a Raven. If you were in a DS as well, that amount of cover would not have been enough to pop-tart from behind.

Compared to the Stalker you were not behind enough cover to shield yourself from any weapon. ACs/PPCs/Lasers would have hit you from that spot and probably killed you even faster than the LRMs.

LRMS or not, you were going to have to move anyway. Eventually the DS was reaching your cover and have direct LOS. Your option to back up was limited because you were back against the wall and backing up only reduced the cover between you and the DS. If it was only the DS you were facing then you could have dodged right and finished him off. However you were exposed on the left and your movement only made you even more exposed from that side.

Basically you think you had more cover against the Stalker than you actually did.

Quote

My point being all direct fire weapons has it is weakness... Which is line of sight, even low cover can be very effective.
PGI might one day realise that the current LRM indirect fire mechanic is too cheesy and fix it... So enjoy it while you can...

On the other hand I am waiting for 3/3/3/3... I hoping more that LRM lovers will find themselves more vulnerable because they would be taking up precious heavy and assault slots.. Which is better spent on people who can defend themselves..
We will see how the game play evolves after tomorrow.

Cover works against LRMs period. If you can get behind it then it will break locks and absorb missiles already in flight. The cover you were behind was high enough to break missle locks and absorb missiles in flight. You would have had a much easier time against the LRM Stalker than against the DS because LRMS have a minimum 180m range. You just had to stay at 179 or less and you would have cored him out without worrying about LRMs at all. If the Stalker foolishly kept coming then the cover would have protected you against his direct fire weapons while you pop-tarted him to death. The only way an LRM boat would be a threat to you behind cover is if someone else was spotting for it which means another mech has direct LOS to you and is likely shooting you.

LRM boats are already plenty vulnerable. You are choosing to ignore that fact simply because you dislike LRMs or have not tried running an LRM mech and experienced how hard it is for yourself.

[ShinVector]

Flaming oblivion, on 04 May 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

My 1st point is lrms have the most weaknesses out of all weapons in game, 2nd point indirect fire is about the only thing you have going for you as a lrmer and that's assuming you have a spotter gl with that on most teams. 3rd point you by your own words point out a lrm boat cant defend himself compared any other assault/heavy . Yet you want to force them out into the open so they're just easy kills . I see what your doing ....

Point 1: Thats why LRMer boat hide behind their team and rain to death anyone can possibly get close to hurt them.
Point 2: I said too easy indirect fire.. Not completely remove it... There is a difference. By the way.. To get the full benefit of Artemis.. LOS is required... Good Luck on that..
Point 3: I have a thing against people taking about heavy and assault slots for LRM super boating.

[Flaming oblivion]

Why whats wrong with using a assault / heavy as a missile platform its the only way your going to get a serious missile platform , when you get below heavy you just don't have the tonnes to pull it off , IDK it may be possible to get what i'd call a lrm platform in a high end tonnage medium , But possible and viable are 2 different things.

[Sephlock]

Or you could poptart/steptart and wreck the faces of the LRM users (although that is harder now... people were complaining even when it was so braindead-easy that you could literally set up a few of those little drinking bird toys to do it, with some minor manual adjustments to aim every few seconds).

[Lyoto Machida]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Point 1: Thats why LRMer boat hide behind their team and rain to death anyone can possibly get close to hurt them.
Point 2: I said too easy indirect fire.. Not completely remove it... There is a difference. By the way.. To get the full benefit of Artemis.. LOS is required... Good Luck on that..
Point 3: I have a thing against people taking about heavy and assault slots for LRM super boating.

It's quite obvious now that this poster has a (not so) hidden agenda against LRMs. The fact that he won't even respond to any of the evidence present in the preceding posts (by his own video!) shows that he's not as good of a pilot as he thinks he is.

Plain and simple, he does not know how to use cover against LRMs.

[El Bandito]

D34K, on 04 May 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

Given that the perennial scrub favourite -- the LRM 60 Stalker -- does 66 points of damage in a single volley, I can only assume you haven't found the power button for your mech yet. That this damage doesn't require line-of-sight, or aim, and is delivered from ~1,000m, means you should be ashamed if you don't break 1,000 damage with some consistency. The fix for the lurms is very straight forward. For one day, all of the teams from RHoD and MRBC, bring nothing but lurm boats to the public queue. The forums would crash under the weight of rage quit threads.

And this guy is a Founder? Shame on you.

Charlie Pohr, on 03 May 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

- LRM boats ARE overpowered. A hail of 4-LRM15s can destroy before you can even blink. All things considered, I was happier with the PPC-Gauss meta. At least I was killed by someone who had to aim and I could return fire myself. - Bum rush only works when your team are mobile enough. Unfortunately, the current meta hardly resembles canon where mediums are the most common. Everyone is in a slow heavy/assault these days with lots of big guns. - Watching an Atlas trying to bum rush LRM boats is a sad sad sight indeed. - Charging as a group requires that everyone move at the speed of the slower mechs. Being slow is a bad idea vs LRMs. - Of course, the lights and mediums can attempt to charge ahead first...except they will run into a wall of heavier brawlers who can easily fend them away from the LRM boats. Meanwhile, their own team's heavies and assaults are being pounded by LRMs. Fact is the the LRM buff has just made is absolutely necessary for your group to have LRMs of their own in order to counter. If you don't, than your team needs to have the mobility (and the courage) to charge them. If neither condition is met, you lose. Simple as that. Therefore, there is no bum rush counter like you said. That's a fairy tale, since hardly anyone drives mediums these days.

At least this guy is a total newbie so it is understandable why he pissed in his pants when Lurmed. Newbies have no concept of careful engagement.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 May 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Flaming oblivion]

Be funny to see the screenies of 95% of the people in those battles never being anywhere near 1k dmg lol.

[Damia Savon]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Point 1: Thats why LRMer boat hide behind their team and rain to death anyone can possibly get close to hurt them.
Point 2: I said too easy indirect fire.. Not completely remove it... There is a difference. By the way.. To get the full benefit of Artemis.. LOS is required... Good Luck on that..
Point 3: I have a thing against people taking about heavy and assault slots for LRM super boating.

1) That is what LRM boats are supposed to do. THEY ARE A SUPPORT MECH. Do you take a dual Gauss Jag to brawl with? No. You stand off as far as you can effectively can and shoot at your foe from behind as much cover as possible to soften them up or kill them. It works even better if their attention is focused on other mechs because you can shoot them without worrying about any return fire. In any event, you can simply walk forward to shoot your enemy and then walk back to be safe behind cover. It hardly takes any time. IF you have JJs then you just pop-tart.

If no one on your team can get close enough to an LRM boat then they are incompetent. That is simply the truth. I've had it happen to me, seen it happen to others and done it to LRM boats myself. It takes a lot of skill though to play "dodge the light" while maintaining a lock on another mech and still shooting your LRMS.

2) Indirect is not too easy. It requires someone else to have an LOS to you, target you and hold that target. If none of those three conditions exist then you cannot fire indirectly. If someone has LOS to you then they are likely shooting you which means you have more urgent things to worry about than indirect LRM fire. Most likely you are shooting back at the spotter which means he may have to move and break the lock or you are trying to get behind cover to shield yourself from his fire which will also break the lock.

So if an LRM boat wants to be most effective THEY DO NOT DEPEND ON INDIRECT FIRE. If I relied simply on indirect fire I would do crap damage. Any competent LRM boat pilot will tell you that the most effective range for LRMs is between 400-600m and with direct LOS if possible. There is your vulnerability. If you want a skill challenge, try dumbfiring LRMs at mech 600m away.

3) This is just an opinion. Super boating LRM assaults are highly vulnerable because they are loaded full of explosive ammo and sacrifice a lot of defensive weaponry. It is easy to blow a side torso out or a leg off because that is where the ammo is usually stored.

[Damia Savon]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 May 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

It's quite obvious now that this poster has a (not so) hidden agenda against LRMs. The fact that he won't even respond to any of the evidence present in the preceding posts (by his own video!) shows that he's not as good of a pilot as he thinks he is.

Plain and simple, he does not know how to use cover against LRMs.

It also shows he really has no idea how indirect LRM fire works or how easy it is to disrupt it. Actually if you watch his video at the 8 minute mark or so, he shoots over the Stalker and pops a Victor from behind.. then he turns and runs. You can hear the missile warning but he dodges pretty much all of them. That actuall shows how easy it is to play "dodge the LRM".

So pretty much he dodges and breaks locks without even realizing he is doing it. No doubt he has no idea how many LRMs his opponents have wasted trying to hit him. Like many, he only remembers the few times he dies and magnifies it out of proportion.

[Flaming oblivion]

Damia Savon, on 04 May 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

1) That is what LRM boats are supposed to do. THEY ARE A SUPPORT MECH. Do you take a dual Gauss Jag to brawl with? No. You stand off as far as you can effectively can and shoot at your foe from behind as much cover as possible to soften them up or kill them. It works even better if their attention is focused on other mechs because you can shoot them without worrying about any return fire. In any event, you can simply walk forward to shoot your enemy and then walk back to be safe behind cover. It hardly takes any time. IF you have JJs then you just pop-tart.

If no one on your team can get close enough to an LRM boat then they are incompetent. That is simply the truth. I've had it happen to me, seen it happen to others and done it to LRM boats myself. It takes a lot of skill though to play "dodge the light" while maintaining a lock on another mech and still shooting your LRMS.

2) Indirect is not too easy. It requires someone else to have an LOS to you, target you and hold that target. If none of those three conditions exist then you cannot fire indirectly. If someone has LOS to you then they are likely shooting you which means you have more urgent things to worry about than indirect LRM fire. Most likely you are shooting back at the spotter which means he may have to move and break the lock or you are trying to get behind cover to shield yourself from his fire which will also break the lock.

So if an LRM boat wants to be most effective THEY DO NOT DEPEND ON INDIRECT FIRE. If I relied simply on indirect fire I would do crap damage. Any competent LRM boat pilot will tell you that the most effective range for LRMs is between 400-600m and with direct LOS if possible. There is your vulnerability. If you want a skill challenge, try dumbfiring LRMs at mech 600m away.

3) This is just an opinion. Super boating LRM assaults are highly vulnerable because they are loaded full of explosive ammo and sacrifice a lot of defensive weaponry. It is easy to blow a side torso out or a leg off because that is where the ammo is usually stored.

I completely agree with most of this , The only thing I'm slightly sceptical on is getting as close as 400m depends what the target is if he has any support near what sort of situation your teams in , It can be extremely dangerous getting that close with lrms it can also work spectacularly, Just depends but as I said I completely agree , my only ? is a matter of situation and opinion.

[zortesh]

I always find people crying about lrms funny myself, since its not the lrms that kill people, its the accidential teamwork, 3 pugs with lrms see someone tagged they fire at that guy, they see missile icon on someone they'll fire at that guy... its the only system where fire can be coordinated among pugs.

lrms are very easy to counter, so much so i dont bother with ams on any mech myself.
1) take cover
2)break line of sight, take one step to the side, wait about 2 seconds, then return to what you were doing.
3)ecm, which is overpowered for the sheer fact that the only communication pugs really have is the blibs on the map, it wont save you from missiles if your out by yourself thou, very safe to stand in the open, tag a ddc and level it with missiles.

I don't count ams, becuase if ams can coutner it, its not enough missiles to be dangerous.

There is also two maps where to get killed by lrms you have to be staggeringly incompitent, river city and crimson straits.

I dont get the "lrms arent fun" thing, I like them myself, if just so theres something else other then ppc autocannon mix running round, i mean there boring if your one of those peeps who sit back at 800 meters, and fire lrms without ever seeing a enemy... I like to roll with a group of brawlers and use my tag + lasers and lrms on enemy at the same time myself...

I don't personally find the 1000+ meter snipeoffs that happen entertaining myself, and i find playing jumpsnipers boring beyond reason, but thats personal taste...

[Lyoto Machida]

Bonus lulz:

8:07 in the video: dead teammate Jenneration tells team "Ideally, we'd have waited for them to come across the open. Rather than entering it ourselves. Ya dig?"



8:42: Jenneration says "hey Modred twist your cored rt(?) away from targets when you're not shooting"



9:02: Modred says "hey Jenner stfu"



9:50: Jenneration says "shin, you should be on the offensive, you can get pinned in turrets soon enough. look for a few extra shots now"



10:52: the aftermath...



Jenneration...wherever you are...I salute you! Great foresight on your part.

[Sephlock]

zortesh, on 04 May 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

There is also two maps where to get killed by lrms you have to be staggeringly incompitent, river city and crimson straits.

What about HPG?

[Navy Sixes]

crossflip, on 03 May 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

This isn't a complaint thread, just trying to shed some light on why LRMs are so annoying. And I seriously haven't seen any posts that state why they aren't, so I'll need to have a closer look it seems.

People keep using this word, "annoying." Yes, LRMs are annoying. Lots of things are annoying.

Keeping close enough to a target so you have LOS and your Artemis will work yet keeping them outside your minimum range is annoying. Having to take a BAP and Advanced Sensor Range modules along and still not get locks because two ECM enemies happen to be near each other is annoying. That clown who keeps TAG-ing targets just long enough for you to waste a salvo before they switch targets is annoying. The way you can dump salvo after salvo into a target with a cherry red CT and miraculously not put one missile into the kill box is annoying. Dusting a clown in a lame Jagerbomb who has the nerve to call you an LRM [redacted] from beyond the grave is annoying (satisfying, but annoying!).

And that's just in game. In the forums, there's all sorts of annoying.

People who say LRM is no skill but have no idea what it takes to post consistent 500+ damage games, solo in the PUG, with a Cat or smaller LRM build are annoying.

People who don't realize that, for as lousy a counter AMS and the BB's missile warning are, they are way better than the Anti-PPC-system, the Anti-laser-system, and the Anti-ballistic-system, and the BB warnings you get when someone is shooting one of those weapons at you, are annoying.

People who come to the forums and complain about whatever knocks them off their game and kills them before they can kill anyone else are annoying.

People who say, basically, "I know with common sense you can avoid LRMs, but I don't have common sense, so I'm complaining about LRMs" are annoying.

So yeah. It must be annoying to keep getting smoked like a cigar by some effective missile players. But there's plenty of annoying to go around.

[MortVent]

Sephlock, on 04 May 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

What about HPG?

There is plenty of cover in HPG to break los and hide up against. Not counting the room below. So nope, not a map you can whine about lrms on. Because as a lrm user, I know how to hug the side of a wall on that map to break locks and fire arcs on missiles..

[Sephlock]

MortVent, on 04 May 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

There is plenty of cover in HPG to break los and hide up against. Not counting the room below. So nope, not a map you can whine about lrms on. Because as a lrm user, I know how to hug the side of a wall on that map to break locks and fire arcs on missiles..

No, I meant why isn't it on the list of maps where it is so easy to avoid LRMs .

[Kilo 40]

AUSwarrior24, on 04 May 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

LRM based 'Mechs do require some skill, just not the same as direct fire 'Mechs. While DF 'Mechs are based on your ability to aim, fire accurately and keep your 'Mech in one piece, support 'Mechs need skill in positioning, judging and anticipating your foes movements and laying traps. This is not something many players get, especially the newbies, so you see them firing blindly and without much thought into what they're firing at.

If all LRM players were co-ordinated and intelligent, and worked with their team better, then LRMs would be far more dangerous.

exactly!

[Flaming oblivion]

The only map lrm's are arguably hard to find cover on is caustic and even there if you dig your feet in the right place your team plays ball and your aware the lrmer needs LoS to hit you , your fine, Some will say alpine meh , if there in the usual spot stay close to the hill till you've flanked , if not there are quite a few decent cover spots and again LoS

[ShinVector]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 May 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Bonus lulz:

8:07 in the video: dead teammate Jenneration tells team "Ideally, we'd have waited for them to come across the open. Rather than entering it ourselves. Ya dig?"

Are you trying to pick a fight or something ?
Are going to gloss over the fact I was the last one alive... With most kills on the team some of which done pretty much single handedly ?
I took a last stand.... Died before I could take down the poptart to LRM suppression. Best thing was the annoying dead team...

In fact I did think to my self... Could I have done any better... Answer is not really... Once locked.. LRM will rain on from >900M... Without ECM it really hard to deal with...

Are doubting what I can do on the Raven 4X ? A mech some people call bad ?
Let some stats do that talking.. Do you think I am stupid or something to let a 1 month old Jenner pilot put me down ?

Edited by ShinVector, 04 May 2014 - 09:48 PM.