100 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Without ECM it really hard to deal with...

how is breaking LOS difficult? ESPECIALLY in a light mech?

[Thunder Child]

I killed 3 LRM-boats in a HexMG Dual LL Jager on Caustic. But then I died to pair of Poptarts at 600m. LL really suck when you try to hit something that's only visible for half the burn time of the weapon. MGuns are OP!

[Thunder Child]

Seriously though. Machine Guns are like the Ultimate anti-Lurm boat weapon. They make your opponents ammo do all the work for you. Just wish they had the same DPS as the AC2, which they should have, if PGI had followed through on matching TT as much as possible.

[ShinVector]

Damia Savon, on 04 May 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

1) That is what LRM boats are supposed to do. THEY ARE A SUPPORT MECH. Do you take a dual Gauss Jag to brawl with? No. You stand off as far as you can effectively can and shoot at your foe from behind as much cover as possible to soften them up or kill them. It works even better if their attention is focused on other mechs because you can shoot them without worrying about any return fire. In any event, you can simply walk forward to shoot your enemy and then walk back to be safe behind cover. It hardly takes any time. IF you have JJs then you just pop-tart.

If no one on your team can get close enough to an LRM boat then they are incompetent. That is simply the truth. I've had it happen to me, seen it happen to others and done it to LRM boats myself. It takes a lot of skill though to play "dodge the light" while maintaining a lock on another mech and still shooting your LRMS.

2) Indirect is not too easy. It requires someone else to have an LOS to you, target you and hold that target. If none of those three conditions exist then you cannot fire indirectly. If someone has LOS to you then they are likely shooting you which means you have more urgent things to worry about than indirect LRM fire. Most likely you are shooting back at the spotter which means he may have to move and break the lock or you are trying to get behind cover to shield yourself from his fire which will also break the lock.

So if an LRM boat wants to be most effective THEY DO NOT DEPEND ON INDIRECT FIRE. If I relied simply on indirect fire I would do crap damage. Any competent LRM boat pilot will tell you that the most effective range for LRMs is between 400-600m and with direct LOS if possible. There is your vulnerability. If you want a skill challenge, try dumbfiring LRMs at mech 600m away.

3) This is just an opinion. Super boating LRM assaults are highly vulnerable because they are loaded full of explosive ammo and sacrifice a lot of defensive weaponry. It is easy to blow a side torso out or a leg off because that is where the ammo is usually stored.

Point 1: Other LRM defenders strangely refuse to call LRM a support weapon.. Go figure. Dual Gauss you say ? Optimally yes. However one key difference.. No min range..
You can brawl with dual gauss when it comes to it. You choose a bad example.

I can help carry matches with dual gauss as well. Watch over confident LRM boats get destroyed.



Point 2: I think you are forgetting. Advance Target Decay. As long your LRMs can reach your target in 3.5 seconds, it helps you negate the issue of lost LOS.

Point 3: LRM super boating wreck people when get those locks. They are usually hiding in the crowd which can be hard to get to without long range weapons yourself.

Kilo 40, on 04 May 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

how is breaking LOS difficult? ESPECIALLY in a light mech?

Yeah.. When it is 1v5 and they already know where you are.. It gets hard... I wasn't in a full speed light too.

[ShinVector]

Damia Savon, on 04 May 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

Yes, you showed how hard it is to counter pop-tarting from behind cover. The cover was sufficient for you to pop-tart from behind because you were in a Raven. If you were in a DS as well, that amount of cover would not have been enough to pop-tart from behind.

Compared to the Stalker you were not behind enough cover to shield yourself from any weapon. ACs/PPCs/Lasers would have hit you from that spot and probably killed you even faster than the LRMs.

LRMS or not, you were going to have to move anyway. Eventually the DS was reaching your cover and have direct LOS. Your option to back up was limited because you were back against the wall and backing up only reduced the cover between you and the DS. If it was only the DS you were facing then you could have dodged right and finished him off. However you were exposed on the left and your movement only made you even more exposed from that side.

Basically you think you had more cover against the Stalker than you actually did.

Cover works against LRMs period. If you can get behind it then it will break locks and absorb missiles already in flight. The cover you were behind was high enough to break missle locks and absorb missiles in flight. You would have had a much easier time against the LRM Stalker than against the DS because LRMS have a minimum 180m range. You just had to stay at 179 or less and you would have cored him out without worrying about LRMs at all. If the Stalker foolishly kept coming then the cover would have protected you against his direct fire weapons while you pop-tarted him to death. The only way an LRM boat would be a threat to you behind cover is if someone else was spotting for it which means another mech has direct LOS to you and is likely shooting you.

LRM boats are already plenty vulnerable. You are choosing to ignore that fact simply because you dislike LRMs or have not tried running an LRM mech and experienced how hard it is for yourself.

Wow... Respect given... At least you understand the combat situation I was in.. Unlike that Out of Point Kurita guy.

Unfortunately the DS was the first one that appear and I know Painsucker is a decent pilot.. I deem him a bigger threat.. I nearly kill him though.. Unfortunately the LRM suppression fire was effective and I missed a critical shot in that right torso I opened up. Game lost...

Alternatively I could have chose to got after the LRM boat... But I would have DS behind and taken PPC+AC in back...

Basically it is one of those Check Mate situations... That how effective LRM boats at suppression, if it was direct fire.. It would be dependant more on pilot skill.

Edited by ShinVector, 04 May 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Kilo 40]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Yeah.. When it is 1v5 and they already know where you are.. It gets hard... I wasn't in a full speed light too.

yet you managed all those kills and was the last on your team...yet we are supposed to take from that, that LRMs are OP?

ok...

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Point 1: Other LRM defenders strangely refuse to call LRM a support weapon

LRMs are without a doubt a support weapon. That's why they can fire without LOS. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[ShinVector]

Kilo 40, on 04 May 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

yet you managed all those kills and was the last on your team...yet we are supposed to take from that, that LRMs are OP?

ok...

LRMs are without a doubt a support weapon. That's why they can fire without LOS. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Uhhh... I was flanking alone trying to find LRM boats.. Managed to to snipe 2 CTF poptarts, 1 Cent, 1 Victor.. In the back without getting noticed... Than I realise I was the last one alive... against 5 mechs... in a 'slow' light.
I like challenges but I disappointedly messed up this one... Could have done better..

Maybe I should have gone left... Hid myself for them to disperse before re-engaging them...
Essentially the aim to get into 1v1 but I could NOT find the opportunity long enough before being suppressed by the LRM boat.

Some LRM defenders deny that they are 'support' weapons when I called it that previously. I don't know.. That's what they said...

Edited by ShinVector, 04 May 2014 - 11:10 PM.

[zortesh]

hpg wasnt on the list becuase aside form the bottom you can force people into lrm killzones on hpg.

lrms are super easy to deal with, unless your narced on cuastic, 3 lrm stalkers + narcer on cuastic is a almost guarenteed win in any pug match.

I notice your kill death ratio is conisderibly lower on non-sniping mechs and massively higher on poptartin mechs.

You were simply in a your screwed situation in that match, lrms are different, but are patently one of the weaker weapon systems, you can say they require less skill.. and yes i suppose they require less aiming then ppcs or autocannons.... but its not a totally no skill weapon.

a skillless lrm player is no threat to anyone, sure lrms require less twicth reflexes and fast aiming, but require alot more situational awareness, someone unskilled will waste endless lrms on locks that never had a chance of lasting, or send them flying into buildings and other obstacles wasting all there ammo ineffectively.... Certainly jumpsniping at short ranges is actully much easyier, hold down jumpjet, let go, click on mech, invovles very little risk.

Unlike tagging your own targets and using lrms on them, that involves alot of paying attention and choosing your timing and placment very well, if you pop up where someones looking your not gunna drop back down before they can swing there mechs weapons to you.

Poptarting peeps at long range does involve alot of skill however, i wont say it doesent, but it primarily requires quickness.

Infact one could argue that close in light on light brawls was the only way for people to truly test there skills, i mean popparting mostly just invovles sitting somewhere and jumping and shooting over and over again, the only real skill it takes is being able to make good snapshots, while using the most powerful weapons in the game.

Edited by zortesh, 04 May 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Kilo 40]

*mind boggles*

[ShinVector]

Thunder Child, on 04 May 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

I killed 3 LRM-boats in a HexMG Dual LL Jager on Caustic. But then I died to pair of Poptarts at 600m. LL really suck when you try to hit something that's only visible for half the burn time of the weapon. MGuns are OP!

You need range beat poptarts else you have to get into the <90M min range to cut down they alpha by 50%.

[ShinVector]

zortesh, on 04 May 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

I notice your kill death ratio is conisderibly lower on non-sniping mechs and massively higher on poptartin mechs.

If you are talking about me... There is a huge problem with HSR for lasers making them very unreliable for dealing accurate damage. It's bad for me at 250ms and I have heard of other people with low ping complain for the same issue.
Eg.. If you go in close with medium lasers to shoot a red CT mech.. You expect him to die not walk away...

The past few upgrades and patches has improved the reliability of ballistics hit registration type weapons greatly. The stats is reflecting that.

Edited by ShinVector, 04 May 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[zortesh]

^ That I totally understand, the vagaries of HSR can be annoying at times, I always assumed lasers worked better myself, though I've alpha'd 4 large lasers into a open torso to no effect more times then i would like to count.

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

You need range beat poptarts else you have to get into the <90M min range to cut down they alpha by 50%.

Why does reading this make me wanna take on a meta highlander with a 6 flamer jenner?

[Mordin Ashe]

The OP made a very constructive post, and since in the end he came to The Only True Conclusion TM and that is "smash them hard with all you have!", it is +1 well deserved.

I wish LRMs would be slightly reworked in terms of counters, both hard and soft. Right now they are make or break, no middle ground exists and it creates a whole lot of unhealthy emotion in game on both sides. PGI has its hands full atm though so I expect nothing breathtaking.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 05 May 2014 - 01:14 AM.

[ShinVector]

zortesh, on 05 May 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

^ That I totally understand, the vagaries of HSR can be annoying at times, I always assumed lasers worked better myself, though I've alpha'd 4 large lasers into a open torso to no effect more times then i would like to count.

Why does reading this make me wanna take on a meta highlander with a 6 flamer jenner?

They will still have that Ac10 or Ac5x2 that will try to kill you while jump around like crazy... But if you have a 25-30 medium laser alpha or even better the Ember 20 alpha medium lasers + 4xMGs... go after their back, right torso or legs... Legs might be the safer options if you intended to stay behind them to take a little damage as possible and no need to care about front or rear... It get a whole lots easier once one leg is gone... If he gets no help.. You will win !

Mordin Ashe, on 05 May 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

The OP made a very constructive post, and since in the end he came to The Only True Conclusion TM and that is "smash them hard with all you have!", it is +1 well deserved.

I wish LRMs would be slightly reworked in terms of counters, both hard and soft. Right now they are make or break, no middle ground exists and it creates a whole lot of unhealthy emotion in game on both sides. PGI has its hands full atm though so I expect nothing breathtaking.

Now that you reminded me... Wondering where is that Chaff thing... Will it be worth that module slot ? Hmmmm...

Edited by ShinVector, 05 May 2014 - 01:59 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Point 1: Thats why LRMer boat hide behind their team and rain to death anyone can possibly get close to hurt them.
Point 2: I said too easy indirect fire.. Not completely remove it... There is a difference. By the way.. To get the full benefit of Artemis.. LOS is required... Good Luck on that..
Point 3: I have a thing against people taking about heavy and assault slots for LRM super boating.

Shin, Shin...c'mon. Have you forgotten the lessons of that time on Arctic already?

1) Not only do most LRM boaters hide behind their team, they depend on it. Worse, many tend to do so in a fashion that renders them vulnerable to flankers, meaning anyone who bypasses that (ie, willing to take the less direct path) reaps a harvest of dead artillery pieces.

2) IDF is only as easy as your spotter makes it. Period. An LRM boat in IDF mode depends on the capacity of a front-liner to get, keep, and maintain LOS while frequently taking return fire, unless they close in and NARC targets. Good spotters mean you get rained on, bad or indifferent spotting means you lose tons of ammo firing into intermittent lock-ons.

3) Your Gaussjager packs 30 tons of rifle +ammo on top of that, basically 50%+ of it's tonnage being weaponry. A Cataphract-4X in quad-5 config loads 32 tons +ammo- again, half the 'Mech is guns and ammo. Your super-boating Stalker is loading 36 tons (quad 15+ Artemis) + ammo...given it's higher need for ammo, let's call that 8 tons at least....or about 50% of it's weight is guns, especially considering it needs secondaries or it dies inside 180m. What's the difference, other than devoting huge amounts of it's tonnage to weaponry that makes it tremendously vulnerable at short range in exchange for IDF capacity?

[ShinVector]

wanderer, on 05 May 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Shin, Shin...c'mon. Have you forgotten the lessons of that time on Arctic already?

1) Not only do most LRM boaters hide behind their team, they depend on it. Worse, many tend to do so in a fashion that renders them vulnerable to flankers, meaning anyone who bypasses that (ie, willing to take the less direct path) reaps a harvest of dead artillery pieces.

2) IDF is only as easy as your spotter makes it. Period. An LRM boat in IDF mode depends on the capacity of a front-liner to get, keep, and maintain LOS while frequently taking return fire, unless they close in and NARC targets. Good spotters mean you get rained on, bad or indifferent spotting means you lose tons of ammo firing into intermittent lock-ons.

3) Your Gaussjager packs 30 tons of rifle +ammo on top of that, basically 50%+ of it's tonnage being weaponry. A Cataphract-4X in quad-5 config loads 32 tons +ammo- again, half the 'Mech is guns and ammo. Your super-boating Stalker is loading 36 tons (quad 15+ Artemis) + ammo...given it's higher need for ammo, let's call that 8 tons at least....or about 50% of it's weight is guns, especially considering it needs secondaries or it dies inside 180m. What's the difference, other than devoting huge amounts of it's tonnage to weaponry that makes it tremendously vulnerable at short range in exchange for IDF capacity?

Nahhhh.... I was just showing an example to these guys with a video.
Raven 4x 1v5... Gets check mated by an LRMs instead of a poptart and the LRM defenders ganged up on me..

Just trying to tell them I have an easier time blocking the LOS of a poptarting Victor versus and indirect fire LRM..
I don't know maybe the Kurita dude doesn't realise I was multi tasking at the time... And that I knew that LRM boating was there but choose to concentrate on the poptart first... Lost... (Again I nearly killed the poptart Victor with my poptart Raven...)

Still trying to find a more universal way to deal with LRMs in a non ECM light in a 1v2 scenario where you can't run away.

Edited by ShinVector, 05 May 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Still trying to find a more universal way to deal with LRMs in a non ECM light in a 1v2 scenario where you can't run away.

In a situation where you have a 1v2 and mobility is not an option, you basically use the only cover available- the LRM user. Of the two, he has the lowest infighting firepower, is likely to be the least agile, and keeping him between you and the direct-fire opponent not only renders the latter useless, impatient ones may very well shoot the LRM boat for you.

It feels counterintuitive but it works. At that range, you fight like it was two equally matched targets- twist and shed fire across your upper body, because at point-blank, he'll have trouble hitting even Ravens in the legs. Once you've gotten the LRM boat down, back up to speed you go- and remember that the corpse still absorbs fire even if it's dead, letting you sometimes get some temporary cover to shield with while you get back to speed. Pay attention to the second 'Mech and use your superior agility to keep the first between you and him.

[Damia Savon]

ShinVector, on 04 May 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Point 1: Other LRM defenders strangely refuse to call LRM a support weapon.. Go figure. Dual Gauss you say ? Optimally yes. However one key difference.. No min range..
You can brawl with dual gauss when it comes to it. You choose a bad example.

I can help carry matches with dual gauss as well. Watch over confident LRM boats get destroyed.

LRMs are a support weapon. Others may not call them that but that is what they are. No sane mechcommander would field a force solely of LRM mechs. They will field a force of mechs loaded with direct fire weaponry. No modern military commander would only bring artillary to a fight and LRMs are artillary.

Certainly you can brawl with a dual gauss mech unlike LRMS but do you choose Gauss rifles as your brawler weapons? No, you choose them because they are good sniper weapons and because you want to snipe with them. That is my point.

IF you are a good sniper then you get into a position that provides you the most cover and shoot at your enemy at a distance. That is the same thing an LRM pilot does. People generally accept being shot apart by Gauss/AC snipers even if they do not like them but freak over an LRM. Again it does not make sense.

Quote

Point 2: I think you are forgetting. Advance Target Decay. As long your LRMs can reach your target in 3.5 seconds, it helps you negate the issue of lost LOS.

Sure it helps but given the LRM speed I think 3.5 second flight time puts you at 600m or so. 3.5 seconds is more time than most people realize to get out of the way.

Quote

Point 3: LRM super boating wreck people when get those locks. They are usually hiding in the crowd which can be hard to get to without long range weapons yourself.

They can certainly do that. I am not disagreeing with how dangerous they can be. Three or four mechs boating ACs can kill you too and at range. Anything in quantity can kill you. I drop a lot and I run into teams that max the AC and PPC far more than massive LRM boats.

[Lyoto Machida]

ShinVector, on 05 May 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Nahhhh.... I was just showing an example to these guys with a video.
Raven 4x 1v5... Gets check mated by an LRMs instead of a poptart and the LRM defenders ganged up on me..

Just trying to tell them I have an easier time blocking the LOS of a poptarting Victor versus and indirect fire LRM..
I don't know maybe the Kurita dude doesn't realise I was multi tasking at the time... And that I knew that LRM boating was there but choose to concentrate on the poptart first... Lost... (Again I nearly killed the poptart Victor with my poptart Raven...)

Still trying to find a more universal way to deal with LRMs in a non ECM light in a 1v2 scenario where you can't run away.

Why do you keep saying "indirect fire"??? I'm starting to think you don't know what the term means. That Stalker that killed you had line of sight on you...even before you moved away from the small slope.

A K2 Gausscat would have hit you just the same from there.

[Wolfways]

Damia Savon, on 05 May 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

LRMs are a support weapon. Others may not call them that but that is what they are. No sane mechcommander would field a force solely of LRM mechs. They will field a force of mechs loaded with direct fire weaponry. No modern military commander would only bring artillary to a fight and LRMs are artillary.

LRM's are not a support weapon any more than MG's are an anti-infantry weapon. In BT they are direct-fire weapons like AC, lasers, etc that just have the ability to also be fired indirect.
If PGI considered LRM's to be artillery then i want the artillery module removed and LRM's given the ability to do the same as the module, but instead they decided for some strange reason that in direct-fire LRM's would suck so that people would mostly use them indirect because in almost every situation you're better off with other weapons than firing LRM's direct.