163 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

Argue all you want, Jun- but you posted a video of you using lasers like a firehose. You won't learn if you're averse to solid feedback.

[Jun Watarase]

And here i was wondering how long it would be before we got to "You are actually having a discussion instead of simply saying yes to everything?! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!".

[Davers]

Fierostetz, on 05 May 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Argue all you want, Jun- but you posted a video of you using lasers like a firehose. You won't learn if you're averse to solid feedback.

I was going to say this, but then said, 'Why bother?'

[Eglar]

You've fired 9 salvos invoking ghost heat, that's a bad habit. But it's not related to how that jager survived. Everyone occasionally does it when panicking.

The last few ones were not fully applied because you either missed half of the ticks or didn't hit the enemy with your Torso-mounted Large Laser.
So let's assume you did do 200 damage.

When the Jager Rushed you, you diverted the damage from the first 3 salvos litterally all across him except for the legs. that's armor-wise already 260 Armor.

When he started face-hugging, you went for his LTwhich has roughly 90 Health. Than you focused damage on mainly CT, left some to left arm, head and right torso. The CT has roughly 120 Health. So yes, he survived with orange ct internals and it;s totally legit.

Edited by Eglar, 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Jun routinely rages in chat as well about how bad the team is etc in my experience.

There's a common denominator here, wonder if he realizes it yet.

p.s. I played 3025 Jun. You are comparing apples to oranges mate.

Good luck in your mastery of Lasers....clearly they challenge you. Dur could not have broke it down any easier for you to understand, but continue to blame the game, your teammates etc.

[Ultimax]

ProtoformX, on 05 May 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

3.) Firing 3 LL at once triggers ghost heat. You would have trounced the Jager(and maybe one of his buddies) if you'd have stuck to 2 LL at a time.

3x LLAS is roughly the same damage and same heat as 6x MLAS.

That's with Ghost Heat on the LLAS.


It's fine, you can run it and it is not an issue.


The heat scale ramps up heavily on the 4th LL.

[Eglar]

Ultimatum X, on 05 May 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

3x LLAS is roughly the same damage and same heat as 6x MLAS.

That's with Ghost Heat on the LLAS.


It's fine, you can run it and it is not an issue.


The heat scale ramps up heavily on the 4th LL.

It's not fine. It's a bad habit.

This video demonstrates it all too well. With cycling the lasers and while maintaining the same accuracy and without the shut-down at the end the Jager would probably be dead. Firing the 3xLLas 9 times (27 times) means that he could have fired his large lasers 4 more times before overheating.

Edited by Eglar, 05 May 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Screech]

Khobai, on 05 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

again... this video just illustrates how terrible spread damage is compared to pinpoint.

had you been using ppcs that jagermech wouldve been dead in 4-5 shots.

Nah, he would have overheated and then gotten cored.

[Durandal]

Davers, on 05 May 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

I was going to say this, but then said, 'Why bother?'

I more or less found myself in the same spot when we didn't make any headway here. Then I remembered that every time I see a post started by Jun, it's never a positive...only a note about how he/she couldn't do something during a match.

Lukoi, on 05 May 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

Jun routinely rages in chat as well about how bad the team is etc in my experience.

There's a common denominator here, wonder if he realizes it yet.

*cough*

[Ultimax]

Eglar, on 05 May 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

It's not fine. It's a bad habit.

This video demonstrates it all too well. With cycling the lasers and while maintaining the same accuracy and without the shut-down at the end the Jager would probably be dead. Firing the 3xLLas 9 times (27 times) means that he could have fired his large lasers 4 more times before overheating.

No, it means that after 9 times that Jager should have long been dead.


I understand your point, yes he should have a weapons group for chain fire.


My point stands though, you can in fact use 3x LLAS the way you would use 6x MLAS.

The Ghost heat incurred for alpha firing 3x LLAS is minimal, and your point is more about fire discipline than ghost heat (which is fine).

[Pjwned]

I have to agree with other people, I'm looking at that video and immediately see the lasers going all over the place, so it seems like you need to keep a more steady shot if you're using 3 large lasers which have the longest possible burn time.

durandal, on 05 May 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Watching your video (again) in full screen on Youtube itself, let's break this down:

Shot 1: Arms hit right and center torso while CT laser hits left torso. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg for armor damage.
Shot 2: Same targets, arm lasers hit RT/CT, CT laser hits LT and LLeg. Paperdoll shows a flash on left arm armor as well that may be damage from another player.
Shot 3: All over. Hits both arms and all 3 torsos, paperdoll shows flashes in all areas.
Shot 4: Harder to see thanks to his guns firing, but it clearly starts on CT and jerks over to LT. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg (probably from him running into you).
Shot 5: Most accurate shot, stays almost 100% centered on LT, destroys it along with left arm.
Shot 6: All over again, starts at RT, moves to CT and LT, then back towards RT.
Shot 7: Arms stay closer to CT, but CT laser hits the RT and RArm instead.
Shot 8: CT laser aimed way above his head, hits empty air. Arm lasers hit mainly CT/LT area.
Shot 9: Arm/CT lasers start on CT for a split second, then jerk past RT/RArm and end up in empty air, hitting the ground.

It's easy to see if you pause and play the video in fullscreen. You are not consistently hitting just one spot of the mech, and you are not consistently hitting the same spot with all three lasers. Your assumption that the areas you're hitting would "have to be orange" is mistaken...you're not hitting any of them long enough to peel away that much armor. While latency could have an effect on some of the first few shots before he closes to point blank range (hence the arm damage on the first couple shots), it doesn't explain the accuracy at close range. Frame by frame, however, the only time your full LLas damage is centered on one spot was shot 5...every other shot, it is spread around the mech.

I have to agree with this assessment as well, the damage spreading shown in that video is crazy and this looks like an accurate play-by-play of what happened.

Davers, on 05 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Lower your mouse sensitivity. It will help you keep your lasers on target.

Also this, I'm not trying to be overly critical but if your crosshair moves around that much while firing you either have a problem keeping your hand steady or your mouse sensitivity is way too high, especially if you're going to use large lasers.

durandal, on 05 May 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Also keep in mind that, while your lasers are all aimed at the same spot, their location in their hardpoints means at close range they are getting caught by parts of the mech you're targeting before they hit...

I wanted to put more emphasis on this as well because I completely agree, that hardpoint placement is far from ideal in a situation like that, and I can't imagine it being all that great in some other situations as well.

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Perhaps you would like to try playing the game at 200 ms + ping and see if your lasers still work exactly the same...

The ping could certainly have been an issue and I won't say too much about how good the game's netcode is, but making flimsy excuses for how you didn't spread damage everywhere when the video clearly shows that you did is rather lame, you need to either stop being in denial so much or pay closer attention because those lasers were going all over the place.

[Monkey Lover]

Lots of back damage without hitting the back

[Flaming oblivion]

Khobai, on 05 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

again... this video just illustrates how terrible spread damage is compared to the opness of pinpoint damage which will almost always come out on top (balance).

had you been using ppcs that jagermech wouldve been dead in 4-5 shots.

[Durandal]

Pjwned, on 05 May 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

I wanted to put more emphasis on this as well because I completely agree, that hardpoint placement is far from ideal in a situation like that, and I can't imagine it being all that great in some other situations as well.

In fairness, at range, the placement on those hardpoints is actually very good: it spreads out your weaponry, making it take longer to strip your lasers from the mech (if you can even manage it), and you can get a shot off around cover from either side with one arm or the other, which can be nice sometimes (ie, ducking behind cover, you sneak one last laser blast out for some extra damage). So the hardpoints themselves aren't bad, it's just that at point blank, they won't be able to pinpoint damage the way they normally could.

Edit: Although, as the video shows, if Arm Lock is left off, it does have the side effect of spreading out the damage, since the CT will almost always be shooting somewhere else. It's definitely a playstyle choice, but one of my least favorite things has always been to have a CT and arm weapon on the same group for just that reason. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Edited by durandal, 05 May 2014 - 09:27 PM.

[Eglar]

Flaming oblivion, on 05 May 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Khobai, on 05 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

again... this video just illustrates how terrible spread damage is compared to pinpoint.

had you been using ppcs that jagermech wouldve been dead in 4-5 shots.

found it funny how the jager was within ppc min range after the 3rd salvo. ppcs have many advantages but this is not the situation you'd like to have a ppc.

[Flaming oblivion]

Eglar, on 05 May 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

found it funny how the jager was within ppc min range after the 3rd salvo. ppcs have many advantages but this is not the situation you'd like to have a ppc.

Because when your using a ppc/lrm/ anything with a minimum range , Your going to let something as slow as a jagger get under your min range .

[Captain Stiffy]

I agree with the OP. The hit detection in this game and the damage placement in general


STILL
SUCKS

edit: SUCKS

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 05 May 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Eglar]

Flaming oblivion, on 05 May 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Because when your using a ppc/lrm/ anything with a minimum range , Your going to let something as slow as a jagger get under your min range .

That atlas made no attempt to outrun the jager with his 90-effective-range-mgs...oh wait, he couldn't even if he wanted to.

Edited by Eglar, 05 May 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Flaming oblivion]

True a atlas cant out run a jagger one of the very few that cant. and the MG's wouldn't of worried me since he has to get through my armour before there really useful.... And i'd of had enough team mates close to never get into that situation to begin with .He had a single ally close from what I saw with multiple enemy contacts focusing fire on him , where as him and his ally weren't trying to fall back and weren't even focus firing.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 05 May 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[Pjwned]

durandal, on 05 May 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

In fairness, at range, the placement on those hardpoints is actually very good: it spreads out your weaponry, making it take longer to strip your lasers from the mech (if you can even manage it), and you can get a shot off around cover from either side with one arm or the other, which can be nice sometimes (ie, ducking behind cover, you sneak one last laser blast out for some extra damage).

I can see that I suppose, but personally if I can optimally avoid putting something on 1 arm, even if it does have a hardpoint available I just won't put anything on and only have the arm with minimal armor.

I guess I can't really think of a great example in practice though, I was going to say I would put 2 LLs in the center torso of the AS7-D and leave the right arm bare but then I realized why that wouldn't work.