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#841 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:46 PM

View PostNauht, on 05 May 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

They started with $0 and one man. They didn't have capital to start with nor that many employees.

Kickstarter for SC was end of '12 IIRC, CB for MWO was firmly established by then and the planning and asking for founders was probably a year earlier.

PGI could have been in that position. Maybe not as much nor as big but they most certainly could have gotten more $$ by now if they handled what they did in the past differently. Wasted potential for a franchise bigger than WC.

Or are you telling me you like what MWO has done for a BT game?

I am middle of the road with MWO. Even with balance issues, mechanically, it is far and away the best iteration of MWO, though the tier 2 tech is a huge unbalancer, as it has been in every version of MW and BT. Just got done running the Stock Mech drops tonight and it was absolutely fabulous.

As for being in that position, yeah, maybe you forget that MW has always been a comparatively niche title, just with a rabidly loyal, but comparatively small, fanbase. Star Citizen level funding was never going to happen, period.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 May 2014 - 08:48 PM.


#842 Dymlos2003

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:51 PM

View PostRoland, on 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Cloud Imperium didn't start out with 43 million.

How do you think they got that much money?

They got it because they took the crowdfunded money, and actually put it to work... They actually hired a huge team of developers, and kept their community tightly in the loop in terms of what they were doing.

The reason people keep throwing mountains of money at CIG is because they don't take all our money, blow it on a garbage game like Mechwarrior Tactics, and then tell us that our opinions don't matter and how we're on an island, while implementing garbage features like ghost heat and 3PV which no one wants.


Two words: Chris Roberts

#843 Nauht

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:56 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 May 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

I am middle of the road with MWO. Even with balance issues, mechanically, it is far and away the best iteration of MWO, though the tier 2 tech is a huge unbalancer, as it has been in every version of MW and BT. Just got done running the Stock Mech drops tonight and it was absolutely fabulous.

As for being in that position, yeah, maybe you forget that MW has always been a comparatively niche title, just with a rabidly loyal, but comparatively small, fanbase. Star Citizen level funding was never going to happen, period.

I'd argue that BT had a much bigger fanbase than WC ever did. Ever see a WC table top game? Or WC battlepods around?

PGI had the fanbase there but blew it. Now they're scrambling to work 3x as hard to win back loyal BT fans.

Stock mech modes is one example of PGI not listening or brushing off good suggestions.
We've been asking PGI for a stock mech mode for how long now? I still recall that suggestion being made in CB, June '12.

Let's see what this year brings though. Clan mechs look stunning and it is plainly obvious they're trying to meet deadlines at least.
All in all it couldn't get any worse. The only direction is up... even if it is slow.

#844 Khobai

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:01 PM

Quote

Two words: Chris Roberts


What about him? The guy made one successful game his whole life. And Wing Commander was never at any point more popular than Mechwarrior. Everything else Chris Roberts has done was CRAP or he never completed it. Fact.

I hate to say it but IGP/PGI really messed up with founders. They underestimated what people were willing to spend and the biggest package they offered was $120. There weren't any additional options for people who wanted to spend more than $120 and as a result there was an upper limit on how much money founder's could earn. Obviously theyve realized that now... because gold mechs... but its too late now because the initial hype for the game is gone.

Quote

however, given that Chris Roberts has a history of making some of the greatest games ever,


hes made one great game. one. thats it. he wasnt heavily involved in the wing commander sequels. he quit midway through the development of freelancer because they wouldnt give him complete control over the creative direction of the game. people claim hes made all these great games and its simply not true.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2014 - 09:20 PM.


#845 KovarD

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:04 PM

View PostRoland, on 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Cloud Imperium didn't start out with 43 million.

How do you think they got that much money?

They got it because they took the crowdfunded money, and actually put it to work... They actually hired a huge team of developers, and kept their community tightly in the loop in terms of what they were doing.

The reason people keep throwing mountains of money at CIG is because they don't take all our money, blow it on a garbage game like Mechwarrior Tactics, and then tell us that our opinions don't matter and how we're on an island, while implementing garbage features like ghost heat and 3PV which no one wants.

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#846 Master Maniac

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:06 PM

View PostKhobai, on 05 May 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:


What about him? The guy made one successful game his whole life. And Wing Commander was never at any point more popular than Mechwarrior. Everything else Chris Roberts has done was CRAP or he never completed it. Fact.


Exactly. The mad rush of funding can only be the result of one of two things:

1) Blind obsession over the idea of playing an open-world space game with fully-fleshed out ship interiors and relative freedom of choice.

2) Star Citizen is a money-laundering scheme.

I'm almost at the point at which I'm not completely certain possibility number two is not applicable here. I'm serious. Chris Roberts' work is loved, cherished, and appreciated, but he's not THAT influential. Not by a long shot. Not that dropping his name is enough to instill more than fifty million dollars' worth of confidence. It's silly to think so.

#847 Nauht

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:07 PM

View PostKhobai, on 05 May 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:


What about him? The guy made one successful game his whole life. And Wing Commander was never at any point more popular than Mechwarrior. Everything else Chris Roberts has done was CRAP or he never completed it. Fact.

Which is why I said MWO is wasted potential.

PGI mishandled basically everything early on. From backend coding, marketing to customer relations. Everything.
And they're now trying to make up for it. But they could have had so much more funding by now.

#848 Master Maniac

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:11 PM

View PostNauht, on 05 May 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Which is why I said MWO is wasted potential.

PGI mishandled basically everything early on. From backend coding, marketing to customer relations. Everything.
And they're now trying to make up for it. But they could have had so much more funding by now.


"Backend coding?" Marketing? Please explain.
I would so love to hear this.

#849 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:41 PM

View PostKhobai, on 05 May 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:


What about him? The guy made one successful game his whole life. And Wing Commander was never at any point more popular than Mechwarrior. Everything else Chris Roberts has done was CRAP or he never completed it. Fact.

I hate to say it but IGP/PGI really messed up with founders. They underestimated what people were willing to spend and the biggest package they offered was $120. There weren't any additional options for people who wanted to spend more than $120 and as a result there was an upper limit on how much money founder's could earn. Obviously theyve realized that now... because gold mechs... but its too late now because the initial hype for the game is gone.



hes made one great game. one. thats it. he wasnt heavily involved in the wing commander sequels. he quit midway through the development of freelancer because they wouldnt give him complete control over the creative direction of the game. people claim hes made all these great games and its simply not true.

Heck people want to bring up PGIs dismal failures..... try this one on for size..... http://en.wikipedia....Commander_(film)

Yeah, the "Messiah of Gaming" directed one of the worst video game movies (which is saying something considering the general stinkbomb nature of the genre) of ALL TIME. Not to mention producing several other creative dead ends.

As for SC? All is I see in the dogfight module is Wing Commander 2015. I'm not against a new WC game, but it's ludicrous the price of many of the packages being offered.

PS...wow speaking of PGI fail....nice of the forum to keep breaking the hyperlink

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 May 2014 - 09:43 PM.


#850 Roland

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:53 PM

View PostKhobai, on 05 May 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:


What about him? The guy made one successful game his whole life. And Wing Commander was never at any point more popular than Mechwarrior. Everything else Chris Roberts has done was CRAP or he never completed it. Fact.


hes made one great game. one. thats it. he wasnt heavily involved in the wing commander sequels. he quit midway through the development of freelancer because they wouldnt give him complete control over the creative direction of the game. people claim hes made all these great games and its simply not true.

Roberts made all the wing commander games except the second one, which he only produced. He also made privateer with his brother.

And yes, those games were some of the best ever made.

#851 Egomane

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:21 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is about star citizen and not one to bash PGI. We have plenty of other threads where you can voice your concerns with PGI and MWO.

#852 Shlkt

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:57 AM

Quote

1) Blind obsession over the idea of playing an open-world space game with fully-fleshed out ship interiors and relative freedom of choice.


The promise of a good space combat game is quite a selling point. Lots of older guys have been waiting years for a good space sim, as we have fond memories of X-Wing, Wing Commander, Descent/Freespace, etc... The market has not provided a AAA space sim in quite a while. Our joysticks are rusting away!

The whole open-world space trading thing is also nostalgic; my own obsession with it goes all the way back to playing Trade Wars in on a local BBS system in the 90s. There were corporations, inside jobs, planets to be conqued, and above all... space junk to peddle on every starbase from here to the Sol system. I suppose Eve fills that niche for some... but I don't have enough time (or money) for that game :)

#853 CyclonerM

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 06:16 AM

View PostShlkt, on 06 May 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:


The promise of a good space combat game is quite a selling point. Lots of older guys have been waiting years for a good space sim, as we have fond memories of X-Wing, Wing Commander, Descent/Freespace, etc... The market has not provided a AAA space sim in quite a while. Our joysticks are rusting away!


This reminds me of the MechWarrior Online founder program.. :)

To get back on topic, i have won a package in a dogfight tournament my unit ran in MW:LL and now i am a proud owner of an Aurora LN :ph34r:

Edited by CyclonerM, 06 May 2014 - 06:20 AM.


#854 Sybreed

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

View PostEgomane, on 05 May 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is about star citizen and not one to bash PGI. We have plenty of other threads where you can voice your concerns with PGI and MWO.


Blame niko for merging my other thread with this one ;-)

#855 Heffay

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:41 AM

SA forums causing problems in Star Citizen? No... can't be. It's a far more mature communi....BAHAHAH! OK, that's as long as I could keep a straight face.

https://forums.rober...-article#latest

#856 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:39 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 05 May 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

I am middle of the road with MWO.


Soooo, this means that you're a Meh-warrior?

#857 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:44 PM

View PostCyclonerM, on 06 May 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

This reminds me of the MechWarrior Online founder program.. ;)

To get back on topic, i have won a package in a dogfight tournament my unit ran in MW:LL and now i am a proud owner of an Aurora LN :unsure:

Kudos, mate!!!

make sure you watch the Aurora video once a day, whether you need to or not.



#858 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 05:15 PM

If I can't play it yet after repeated delays, it's vaporware.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 07 May 2014 - 05:20 PM.


#859 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:34 PM

View PostRoland, on 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Cloud Imperium didn't start out with 43 million.

How do you think they got that much money?

They got it because they took the crowdfunded money, and actually put it to work... They actually hired a huge team of developers, and kept their community tightly in the loop in terms of what they were doing.

The reason people keep throwing mountains of money at CIG is because they don't take all our money, blow it on a garbage game like Mechwarrior Tactics, and then tell us that our opinions don't matter and how we're on an island, while implementing garbage features like ghost heat and 3PV which no one wants.


just compare the work investments via communications alone...

clans; a webpage with art and prices. many months before details about what you're actually getting, a few hints droped about what things are but realease the grab deal anyways when you haven't delivered on previous items from the last one or features {ui.2 is a rushed joke ui. the basics of info organising, inventry etc is still not there so it really doesn't count as realeased more WIP} medallions for phoenix mean nothing and they haven't explained what clan medellions even are!? bonus modules what are they? clan affiliation and faction choices aren't on the website yet so what are they? will i be able to get a clan nova cat flag instead of the lone wolf one or not?

hense only a month so to go and social rewards isn't even half way only the madcat is down to 50 so available like what does that even mean 50 out of 55 or 505?

any ship; gets a full video, discussions with the devs about what they're doing with each model, making it plain and clear with face to face discussions how weapons are being developed, what models are being used not just concept art and then the bomb of a model drops after you brought in. clear statements what is being worked on and why things get held up.

this is why pgi is not making money nearly as much as CIG, CIG has plans and try to stick too them and advertise everything they do not just what you can buy so you know exactly what's coming up and what you're getting into. MWO is winging it. plain and simple they're making up **** as they struggle along and only adear to stuff they're called out on like the griffen wolverine release dates or turrets etc. the clan drop proved it, a shadow cut out of concept art for the trailer, totally abismal rushed and deterring for atracting customers not to even have some wears ready for the sale! PGI started with CW and establishing that functionality with 6 IS factions and only when that was sorted would clans arrive. now it's the other way round sell off anything and everything even if you haven't a clue what you're building or haven't started yet and CW is a carrot. clearly without explaining themselves and sticking to plans as much as possible with little to show beyond ideas written down years ago pgi are hopeless ametures at this buisness. it's plain and simple to see. they don't need to go all out with 50+ vids and so much stuff like CIG. but just 1 vid of their own with evidence of a focused effort would've gone a long way. in fact the 2012 trailer did just that but ever since then it's buy heros vids or nothing, even the dev vlogs didn't last LOL.

View PostRebas Kradd, on 07 May 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

If I can't play it yet after repeated delays, it's vaporware.



vapor ware? no mate this will be long drawn out but will eclipse online gaming for years to come, all i see from CIG is work work work showing showing showing. there's no doubt that the players will be getting a ton worth of stuff this year. 2015 will show SC being 3-5 times more and just better than what MWO is because CIG were focused and tallented.

all i see from PGI is, um er perhaps, waiting waiting waiting, we finally did something and it still needs a year's work and we're not prepared to show or discuss anything else because faceless men say so. MWO as it looks now won't be changing much come 2015 because it's all about the cash items and the functionality simply goes from one set of bugs to another for the sake of tick boxes. this game only works because RHOD, smurfy and MWOlobbys keeps the main crowd afloat, PGI has only had the UI and private match milestone for over half a years work. this was one reason i cringed about clans, not only had they not even started developing it when announced but they game themselves half a year to do it. i expect buggy weapon pods and items swapping in the mechlab, inventory dissappearing or appearing in IS mech with glitchy organisation. i expect weapons to not function on the field properly and hitboxes to be broken. because that's what realeased material was for the first IS stuffz and clans will be no different.

if Cig releases their alpha DF module with bugs they may cop flack but at least they'll know when to call a game a game and when something is still a beta unlike MWO which is still very much a beta.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 07 May 2014 - 07:40 PM.


#860 Heffay

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:16 AM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 07 May 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:


just compare the work investments via communications alone...

clans; a webpage with art and prices. many months before details about what you're actually getting, a few hints droped about what things are but realease the grab deal anyways when you haven't delivered on previous items from the last one or features {ui.2 is a rushed joke ui. the basics of info organising, inventry etc is still not there so it really doesn't count as realeased more WIP} medallions for phoenix mean nothing and they haven't explained what clan medellions even are!? bonus modules what are they? clan affiliation and faction choices aren't on the website yet so what are they? will i be able to get a clan nova cat flag instead of the lone wolf one or not?

hense only a month so to go and social rewards isn't even half way only the madcat is down to 50 so available like what does that even mean 50 out of 55 or 505?

any ship; gets a full video, discussions with the devs about what they're doing with each model, making it plain and clear with face to face discussions how weapons are being developed, what models are being used not just concept art and then the bomb of a model drops after you brought in. clear statements what is being worked on and why things get held up.



Oh dear... such a bad analogy. What is the gameplay going to be like for that $5,000 Idris people bought? What does it look like? What are its capabilities? How balanced is it in gameplay?

All we have are words on a screen right now.

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 07 May 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

vapor ware? no mate this will be long drawn out but will eclipse online gaming for years to come


It is so funny to see you post this. You don't know crap about the gameplay, but already are declaring that it is the best gameplay of any video game out there. Here's a hint: If the gameplay sucks, people won't play.





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