918 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Xeno Phalcon, on 20 May 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Yeah this really isnt going to catch on as e-sport, i can already see it now.

"Well what do we have today folks? Well I see three dragon slayers, some shadow hawks and a few cataphracts! and up they go, shooting , dropping down.....there they go again, jumping, shooting oh and there is the arty strikes look at all that red smoke!"

I mean really that craps boring to be a part of, watching it is going to be like paint drying after the first dozen times.

Well, If PGI decides to give us smoke rounds, EMP blasts, and napalm that all had a sufficiently-sized area of effect, then those poptarts can be dealt with.

And if artillery and air strikes required the use of TAG instead of that silly red smoke ...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ghost Badger, on 20 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

"In the event of neither team completely destroying the other, the team with the most kills wins. In a match where no kills take place, both teams are disqualified and removed from the tournament, providing incentive to initiate combat instead of waiting for the other team to walk into a deathtrap."

Problem. Solved.

Love it.

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

So, swapped spawns.
HoL has the closer route (approx half time) from spawn to tunnel, have the overview on comtower,
HoL can see it when they tunnel rush and can position themselves earlier inside the tunnel.
Arties will be ready when SWK approaches the entrance.

All I'm saying is you should NEVER change the rules mid-tournament to try and force a result.

[Eglar]

Mystere, on 20 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well, If PGI decides to give us smoke rounds, EMP blasts, and napalm that all had a sufficiently-sized area of effect, then those poptarts can be dealt with.
And if artillery and air strikes required the use of TAG instead of that silly red smoke ...

isn't that the "2nd class" version of Strikes? Why not drop a stike? Gives you smoke, heat, and eventually dead mechs.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mystere, on 20 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well, If PGI decides to give us smoke rounds, EMP blasts, and napalm that all had a sufficiently-sized area of effect, then those poptarts can be dealt with.

And if artillery and air strikes required the use of TAG instead of that silly red smoke ...

Or they could just balance the existing game before we start adding all kinds of crazy consumables.

[Bront]

Ghost Badger, on 20 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

"In the event of neither team completely destroying the other, the team with the most kills wins. In a match where no kills take place, both teams are disqualified and removed from the tournament, providing incentive to initiate combat instead of waiting for the other team to walk into a deathtrap."

Problem. Solved.

The way PGI has it set up is encouraging teams to fold their hand every time until they get a royal flush, then go all out.

The change to Assault fixes it better (honestly, a change to conquest would as well) by providing a better way to engage. Otherwise, teams will still try to outwait the other.

[Eglar]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

All I'm saying is you should NEVER change the rules mid-tournament to try and force a result.

So fyi: second drop was on Skirmish, like the first drop.

[Deathlike]

Bront, on 20 May 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

It hasn't been that bad...

But it's also possible that an event like this will show PGI what they need to balance out more (Strikes for example).

That was said in various solo tournies.

The arty change is like 7-8 months old. Nothing has changed since then with respect to arties.

[Bront]

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

isn't that the "2nd class" version of Strikes? Why not drop a stike? Gives you smoke, heat, and eventually dead mechs.

Smoke would last longer, but wouldn't force mechs to run. It's not a bad tactical option to have.

[Eglar]

Bront, on 20 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

The change to Assault fixes it better (honestly, a change to conquest would as well) by providing a better way to engage. Otherwise, teams will still try to outwait the other.

Change to Conquest, I can already see people crying about assault River City, which should have been a brawler map but favors Mid-Range Builds (PPC/AC5)

[Deathlike]

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Change to Conquest, I can already see people crying about assault River City, which should have been a brawler map but favors Mid-Range Builds (PPC/AC5)

The turrets have made it an undesirable camp map really.

[Bront]

Deathlike, on 20 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

That was said in various solo tournies.

The arty change is like 7-8 months old. Nothing has changed since then with respect to arties.

There wasn't video of the winning mechs easily available to PGI though, and making how the totals were being gotten on easy display.

[Deathlike]

Bront, on 20 May 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

There wasn't video of the winning mechs easily available to PGI though, and making how the totals were being gotten on easy display.

It kinda requires PGI to "play their own game" often does it not?

Also - the arty/airstrike change was made on the Phoenix Pack release:
http://mwomercs.com/...49-15-oct-2013/

Edit:
It is also when the SRM4 "impulse" change was made.

Edited by Deathlike, 20 May 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[Gallowglas]

fluffypinkbunny, on 20 May 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

To defend we weren't positioned badly, we did have bad aim, but the position drew the team into the cave to fight on our ground. If we had the cave blocked so they couldn't get in, I'm sure they wouldn't have, we got the first few kills, and forced the fight on our terms, we just lost that fight thats all.

It was at least an interesting fight. Say what you will, but that was withering fire until we started stripping torsos and ammo began to run out. It definitely made us think on our feet. The geometry issues with the walls of the cave were partly to blame for the accuracy of both teams, I am sure.

I'd say that trying to block the entrances would have been problematic too. I mean, sure, you're slowing the rush, but there are few spots where you can't get multiple lines of fire on the mechs who are trying to impede the advance. You'd also have to be even more careful about avoiding friendly fire. As it stood, you all but guaranteed you'd get a few kills at the outset because of the concentrated fire.

Edited by Gallowglas, 20 May 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Imminent]

Sorry to HoL and the viewers for that 1st drop - but it had to be done. Honestly, I knew there was a minimal chance HoL would venture into the cave, the chance of success was low, but I knew it would make a few statements....

Skirmish is wildly stupid for competitive play.

This tournament was done terribly... nothing was thought out fully, the execution was poor. Stamping a 'beta' tag on the tournament was ridiculous from the get-go, the beta tag gives runway for IGP/PGI to be incompetent... and for some reason the community is accepting of their complete incompetence... Considering, how much complete nonsense the competitive community has put up with the last 2 years; the community flat-out deserved better... WAY BETTER.... This tourney felt like this was put together by people that play on Facebook for 7.5 hours a day and then put .5 hours into their work; hope you leveled up your flowers in farmville, hope it was worth it...

They had to change the rules mid-tournament after 90% of the matches were completed; THAT IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS THING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN A TOURNAMENT... there are probably teams that lost that could have forced an assault drop and performed BETTER in those assault drops. Don't worry though; eat it up the incompetence like good boys and girls; it's just a 'beta' tournament... doing something right and proper the first time would be CRAZY....

Example of something not thought out fully; the choice of Foggy Forest Colony. With hundreds of people watching the stream; the numbers alone would have drawn in some new viewers that have never played the game before. Congratulations IGP/PGI; the new viewers got to see a foggy Forest Colony map and got to watch fonts shoot at each other... those new viewers aren't going to wait around and say "oh it'll get better"; no they have moved on already...


You can call us cowards and elude to it, but we've put ourselves in the ring several times vs HoL and SJR(11 times); we've lost; sometimes won a drop, and we've streamed it all for all to watch... so think what you want; frankly it doesn't matter what you F'n think.....


TLDR: We willingly accept the absolute of minimum from IGP/PGI, and that's a big F'n problem...

[warner2]

On the cave camping thing the general problem is one of camping an easily defended spot.

The ideal solution is to allow teams to camp and accept that this is part of skirmish mode which is the purest of the modes. It's team versus team playing in whatever way they see fit to win. On most maps camping a spot is actually not that great of an idea because artillery gives us a tool to punish a camping team (this is why even though arty/air needs rebalancing it's basic capability to hurt a 'mech probably shouldn't be reduced too much).

But of course arty / air doesn't work in a cave, and these matches are being watched, so a better solution would be to have active admins in touch with the teams during the match, watching the match, and pro-actively managing the teams to enforce a rule that says teams shouldn't be camping and should be attempting to engage and fight it out over the course of a match. Think of a rugby referee, he doesn't want to call a foul and stop the match, he talks to the players and makes them aware of what is expected of them and when the are messing up to try and keep the match flowing. The referee should be telling the players who are camping to get moving and seek an engagement, and that would be both teams without any regard for whether they are long or short range or whatever. No need to wait 20 minutes and force a re-drop, if the teams are camping after 5 he should be talking to them and reminding them they should be actively seeking engagement. It's subjective and has grey areas but that's what referees for.

[Eglar]

Deathlike, on 20 May 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

The turrets have made it an undesirable camp map really.

I've posted it before how I find River City Assault one of the more balanced maps in terms of fairness:

LRM Turrets would be the only turrets which could constantly dish out damage to an approaching team.

Spoiler

Team 1 will definitely have the initiative when pushing for team 2 (well, point taken - that's not so fair). This is also a point where the usage of Strikes + Mobility (pushing team) outweights the advantage of setting up an "fortified" firing-line (camping), which forces team 2 to react to team 1's push.

Here's just a few options with Appr1 being my favorite:

Spoiler

I am just glad that they didn't bring Caustic Assault:

Spoiler

Edited by Eglar, 20 May 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Mystere]

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

isn't that the "2nd class" version of Strikes? Why not drop a stike? Gives you smoke, heat, and eventually dead mechs.

Air strikes rely on random chance, and the smoke and heat they generate are negligible. Smoke rounds, EMP, and napalm can neutralize groups of enemies for a long duration, which opens up other tactical possibilities.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Or they could just balance the existing game before we start adding all kinds of crazy consumables.

What you call crazy I call effective counters. Counter --> Balance.



In a related note, people keep complaining about how useless other modules are. But when someone suggests better modules, people ... complain anyway. "Nuts!' I say.

Edited by Mystere, 20 May 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Sir Trent Howell]

Neither Swords or Lords are responsible for any sort of criticism for the way the game was played. This is the result of poor map design. Any map that allows a game to be played in the manner it was is a poor map. It is indicative of a map designed to limit the number of locations an engagement can occur thus limiting the tactics and approaches to the map. The issue was magnified 10 times over before the advent of private servers, but obviously can still occur.

It requires a complete reworking of the way maps are designed. Don't place limitations on engagements and use varied (rather than extreme) terrain to allow for multiple tactical doctrines to work.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

So fyi: second drop was on Skirmish, like the first drop.

Yes, with the threat that if they didn't engage, it would switch to assault for the 3rd match.

Let me ask you this, your parents tell you to clean your room. You don't.

Then they tell you "Clean your room, or you're grounded".

Well you can decide not to clean your room, but there is a consequence.

What do you do?

Same deal here.

PGI says Skirmish. Teams don't engage.

PGI once again say Skirmish, but if you don't engage, we will switch to Assault. And by switching to Assault they are basically forcing the close-range team to fight at a disadvantage.

Once again, you can decide not to engage. but there is a consequence.

This is what is known to parents as a threat.

If switching to assault hurt both teams equally, that would be one thing. But it would not, the brawling team was going to be at a disadvantage. So they just went for it, instead of getting punished.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 May 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[Appogee]

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Move, when striked.
Some people complain about camp-sniping.
Other people complain about striking.
Other complain about both, which is hilarious.

I don't need your gratuitous advice about how to avoid strikes. What I'd like is for tournaments to reward players who demonstrate the greatest Mechwarrioring skill ... not those who have the greatest skill at placing Strikes and inflating their damage with 40K gifts from the heavens.

This isn't supposed to be WoT.

Eglar, on 20 May 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

And there I thought that this thread was about the tournament and not about your personal grief over a game-mechanic.

Apparently, the direct correlation between this tournament and matches dominated by Strikes was too hard for you to grasp.

Mystere, on 20 May 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I can counter that you can't launch your strikes (or fire any of your weapons for that matter) if you can't see the enemy because you've been blinded by smoke and/or your HUD had been disabled by EMP. As an added bonus, you might suddenly discover to your surprise that the enemy is already in your face just as you recover your vision and sensors.

And instead of limiting the number of strikes via a hard-coded amount, I prefer changing the mechanic to require TAG or something similar instead of that silly red smoke.

And just to be on topic ( ), smoke and EMP can be used against those poptarts that most people seem to complain about.

I like all of your ideas. I'd be fine with a different firing mechanic too if that had the effect of limiting the sheer number of strikes.