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Best Missile Boat Chasiss


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#61 IraqiWalker

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:43 PM

View PostEscef, on 14 May 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Wow, so, what, things always go according to plan for you? Because they sure as hell don't for me. In my BLR-1S I've taken plenty of counter battery fire, been sniped at, and harassed by lights. Apparently in your universe close range guns aren't needed because lights never zip in on you. And then you turn around and belittle the short range armament. Well, 2 things. Firstly, I've nailed Spiders with the AC20 on a 733C, While I expect it to be harder on an Atlas, you would use that build in a group, you'd have 2 guys shooting at the offender. Secondly, for how long have you failed to notice that it has 2 MLs? This is the second time you've mentioned "1 ML", yet the mech quite clearly has 2. Attention to detail, please.


Okay, it has 2MLs. Quake and quiver ye attackers. The problem is still that you have a 100 tons that can and should be put to better use. You can replace that escort atlas, with a CDA-X5, that will be just as effective against lights. Or any other medium, that can carry better protection weaponry. If ECM is what you worry about, you can get an ECM light to do that. Instead of robbing your team of one of the best front line mechs they can have.

My argument isn't that close range guns are not needed around LRM mechs, just that they are not as good. If I'm a light facing off against that atlas, I will stay at 400 meters, where the 2 MLs do measly damage at best, and the AC20 has a better shot of crashing the game than hitting me. That atlas is a bad escort mech. One of the things you want from an escort mech is speed so that it can chase aggressors away, and if needed close the distance with them. While also having the ability to disengage at will and return to the main formation with little risk. That's why the best escort mechs are usually in the light and medium weight groups.

It's basic common sense, why use 100 tons to do what 50 tons can do better?

When that Atlas is sitting pretty behind the lines next to the LRM boats, who's tanking shots on the front line instead of it? The Jenner? Or is it the Shadowhawk? None of them can handle being hit. That's what I've been trying to clarify to you. Putting that mech behind means that your team has to compensate for the lack of that armor. On the other hand, that D-DC has to make up for it's absence from the frontline with firepower it sadly doesn't have. The LRM 35 can't make up for it. Even the LRM 50 isn't gonna be enough to compensate. That AC 20 is gonna be there to defend you from mechs that will get really close to you, but you will almost never use it to help at the front line.

#62 Escef

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:14 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 14 May 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:


Okay, it has 2MLs. Quake and quiver ye attackers. The problem is still that you have a 100 tons that can and should be put to better use.

I don't know if you noticed this, but there are no tonnage restrictions per se, so even with weight class balancing via 3/3/3/3 that Atlas is just as good as an Awesome. So stop focusing on it being 100 tons, it doesn't matter. As for the use, in case you failed to notice, almost every assault mech is carrying heavy mech firepower with less speed and more armor, so one could usually put tonnage to better use (if you really want to focus on tonnage) by bringing a heavy mech instead.

Also, I loved your common sense comment, as you have displayed nearly none in this thread. Common sense is to help people play what they want to play. If someone wants to run an LRM Atlas, you help them do it. Is it ideal? No, never said it was. But if they're dead set on doing it, at least help them kit the concept out the best it can be done.

Edited by Escef, 15 May 2014 - 01:15 AM.


#63 oldradagast

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:28 AM

Just tossing in a vote for the Awesome chassis - the missile heavy ones are good in this role. They have consistent missile tube counts - all 15 - and they can mount a TAG in the head slot for the ability to peak over obstacles while holding the beam on target. Yes, yes - they are Awesomes and thus suffer all the problems of that chassis, but if you're putting out clouds of LRM's, you're not up front so your huge size and bad hitboxes don't matter as much.

#64 oldradagast

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:31 AM

View PostEscef, on 13 May 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

Then you speak of something that doesn't exist, and your entire argument is built on something that doesn't happen. I mean, yeah, sure, I suppose one could drop a 360 engine, 2xLRM20, an LRM10, 11 tons of ammo, and 608 armor onto an Atlas, but I've yet to see anything that even resembles this fabled "LRM only" Atlas.


In his defense, lunacy like LRM-only Atlas's do happen. Just saw one yesterday: a DDC Atlas with 3 large LRM launchers and a single Large Laser for defense... and it lacked ECM, AMS, or TAG. Yes, it was a corner case disaster, but for some goofy reason these type of horrible LRM builds show up on Atlas's more often than other assault mechs. I have no idea why, but with over a year of play, it seems that whenever I run into a terrible LRM build that is nearly helpless under LRM range, it is an Atlas.

#65 IraqiWalker

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:49 PM

View PostEscef, on 15 May 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

I don't know if you noticed this, but there are no tonnage restrictions per se, so even with weight class balancing via 3/3/3/3 that Atlas is just as good as an Awesome. So stop focusing on it being 100 tons, it doesn't matter. As for the use, in case you failed to notice, almost every assault mech is carrying heavy mech firepower with less speed and more armor, so one could usually put tonnage to better use (if you really want to focus on tonnage) by bringing a heavy mech instead.

Also, I loved your common sense comment, as you have displayed nearly none in this thread. Common sense is to help people play what they want to play. If someone wants to run an LRM Atlas, you help them do it. Is it ideal? No, never said it was. But if they're dead set on doing it, at least help them kit the concept out the best it can be done.

This is the guides section, where people tell people what to play, and what is good and bad. Make peace with that concept.

As for the rest of the discussion, well ... I can see you're either ignoring my points or just purely stubborn on an erroneous opinon, as such, I am done debating this inane argument with you.

#66 OznerpaG

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:26 PM

View Postoldradagast, on 15 May 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:


In his defense, lunacy like LRM-only Atlas's do happen. Just saw one yesterday: a DDC Atlas with 3 large LRM launchers and a single Large Laser for defense... and it lacked ECM, AMS, or TAG. Yes, it was a corner case disaster, but for some goofy reason these type of horrible LRM builds show up on Atlas's more often than other assault mechs. I have no idea why, but with over a year of play, it seems that whenever I run into a terrible LRM build that is nearly helpless under LRM range, it is an Atlas.


i personally wouldn't use an atlas as a primary missile boat but since they are so SLOOOOWWW, and unleveled they must maneuver like a piece of rebar stuck in concrete so i'd think the least painful way to level one is to mount it with LRMs so you can collect as much damage as possible to scrounge XP ASAP - that's what i'd do until it was mastered, THEN i'd change it to a weapons loadout more suitable for smashing your face in up close

#67 Escef

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:09 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 15 May 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

This is the guides section, where people tell people what to play, and what is good and bad. Make peace with that concept.

As for the rest of the discussion, well ... I can see you're either ignoring my points or just purely stubborn on an erroneous opinon, as such, I am done debating this inane argument with you.

You need to come to peace with the idea that not all of us have 40+ mechs and the luxury of c-bills not being a huge issue. If a new player comes in, says he has an Atlas, and wants to try LRMs, tell me how much you expect "get a different mech" is going to help. No, please, tell me how someone that only plays 2-3 hours a week is going to afford to buy and kit out a BLR-1S as a missile boat (if you go for a good engine it's over 17.6 million, still over 12.6 million for a budget version). Your idea of being helpful is to be condescending? Um, ok, good job.

#68 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:02 AM

Deffinitely the Jenner Oxide... easily the single mech with the most missile hardpoints and tubes per Ton. :)

#69 SnagaDance

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:13 AM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 16 May 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

Deffinitely the Jenner Oxide... easily the single mech with the most missile hardpoints and tubes per Ton. :P


It has neither actually. The Locust-3S has 1 missile hardpoint for each 5 tons, and though I'm not 100% positive about the tubes I think the Awesome 8R with 60 tubes for 80 tons (0,75 ratio) could be a sure winner!

Edit: Ok just checked and the Oxide does seem to win this last one. 3 10 tube launchers and a 5 tube one, really? :)

Edited by SnagaDance, 16 May 2014 - 04:15 AM.


#70 wanderer

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:25 AM

Actually, the most heinously silly but missile capable LRM boating 35 tonner?

The Hero version of the Raven. It can actually squeeze in two full LRM 15's with a respectable amount of ammo, though absolutely no speed whatsoever.

[color="#b27204"]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...594c79cf40c5d93[/color] is the budget version

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...42395d441e63a1e is the slightly faster XL version, though neither one gets past speeds you'd normally expect from an Atlas!

#71 Duncan Aravain

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:45 AM

My Battlemaster 1S has dozens of matches with over 1000pts and numerous kills, with the best damage total being somewhere north of 1400 points. It requires the pilot to have extreme knowledge of all the maps, be 360 degree aware and able to observe the minimap and windscreen simultaneously, and position oneself close enough to friendly mechs for support while aligning up missile flight lines to reach behind cover. Occasionally, I miss noticing that have strayed too far from the main herd or failed to pick up that quick blip indicating an incoming light and I die a painful death screaming for aid.

If I want a self protecting missile boat, I go Stalker.

#72 IraqiWalker

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 11:11 AM

View PostEscef, on 16 May 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

You need to come to peace with the idea that not all of us have 40+ mechs and the luxury of c-bills not being a huge issue. If a new player comes in, says he has an Atlas, and wants to try LRMs, tell me how much you expect "get a different mech" is going to help. No, please, tell me how someone that only plays 2-3 hours a week is going to afford to buy and kit out a BLR-1S as a missile boat (if you go for a good engine it's over 17.6 million, still over 12.6 million for a budget version). Your idea of being helpful is to be condescending? Um, ok, good job.


No my idea of being helpful is to help them wit the mech. We're not discussing what would happen if someone decided they want help running an Atlas as an LRM boat. I would tell them it's a bad idea, but I would give them a build that could work. On the other hand, if someone goes "Hey guys, I'm thinking of getting a mech to work as LRM escort and carry LRMs. how about that Atlas D-DC thing?" Then I will tell them it's a bad idea, and explain why. Which is what I was talking about with you.

However, you insist on cherry picking extreme fringe cases that are unrelated to the discussion we are having, which is about how the build you suggested is bad for it's purpose. Yes it CAN be done, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I CAN go bungee jumping without a bungee, but I probably shouldn't. That's what this discussion was about. Not some strawman examples you put forth.

I am sorry if I seem condescending, you can blame the internet's lack of conveying emotion for part of that.

#73 Reported for Inappropriate Name

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 11:31 AM

best missile boat chassis are quick and can fit a tag and a few anti light defenses. sure you can just stack a lot of tubes but it becomes difficult to get good placement and to avoid getting shot in larger mechs. Highly effective in random games and vs bad organized teams, but a good lrm pilot picks a mech that won't make him wish he was just a little more mobile.

trebs are pretty good although personally I like the hbk-4sp. not exactly a missile boat but its good at ridging. I like the standard version because unlike the 4j the firepower isn't concentrated into one side and you can take some hits, still maintain your tag and 50% of your firepower, but the xl version has its own benefits. you can also drop engine size for an ams if you want, but in reality mediums are too fragile to go broadsiding like that. In fact most of your shots will probably be unlocked sneak attacks vs stationary idiots. Kinda wish the 4sp could fit an ecm. if there's a clan equivalent to this that can fit ecm it is going to be a lot of fun.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3572091c86ada8e

or xl version

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72aa9cf0d1e17ba

Edited by Battlecruiser, 16 May 2014 - 11:37 AM.


#74 Orbit Rain

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

We have thread about D-DC boats already, please make the voices stop!

BLR-1S is my go-to lrm monster. ON1-VA or V, CPLT-A1, KTO-18 are also beasts.

#75 IraqiWalker

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostOrbit Rain, on 19 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

We have thread about D-DC boats already, please make the voices stop!

BLR-1S is my go-to lrm monster. ON1-VA or V, CPLT-A1, KTO-18 are also beasts.


Understood.

#76 Escef

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:22 PM

View PostOrbit Rain, on 19 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

We have thread about D-DC boats already, please make the voices stop!

Subject was quiet for 3 days, if you want it to stay that way don't go poking it, man.

#77 Keeshu

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:50 AM

Let's see, I've been avoiding missle boat mechs for now because I know missle boats are probably what I will want to be playing..... Excluding the Catapult, which was my first. I knew it'd be my favorite because of it's design and I guessed that I'd love it's gameplay style the most.
Here's what I look for in an LRM boat:
#1 Enough weight to deal meaningful damage with LRMs (efficiency of LRMs, and a decent amount of LRMs)
#2 Enough Speed + Manueverability to stay with your team, and to distract the enemy long enough for them to be killed by your team if they focus you, since people often focus LRM boats.
#2.5 Jumpjets - Torso weapon focused mechs will hate you, and helps you re-locate/escape better.
#3 Ability to use Tag Laser
#3.5 Some extra energy hardpoints for more medium lasers for self defense to discourage attackers. Don't be that guy that can't finish off something with 1 hit left while they whittle your health down from full health because you had no backup weapons. I suggest at least 3 medium lasers in general, enough to deal some respectable damage and finish off people, while not taking up much room/tonnage. Ballistics are too heavy if you're trying to be an LRM boat (and Machineguns aren't reliable self defense).
#4 The correct size for tubes for what you are trying to do. Streaming is fine if there's no AMS (which is common cause people care about dealing damage too much), but if you want a massive load, you want big tubes.

However, out of the Catapult, Thunderbolt, Cataphract, and Atlas that I have mastered, here's what I can say about them.

Atlas D-DC is the only Atlas that I would even think of doing LRMs on. However, even then I'd never go full on LRMs with nothing else, don't go full on boat. Since it has ECM, allies will flock to you, making it so you never really have to worry about being protected from lights (unless you're being such a tard that no one will follow you). Back when it was 8v8, I used AC20, PPC, tag, and 3 LRM 10s (probably a good idea to downgrade 2 of them to LRM 5 cause of tubes though), and it was practicly a steamroll everytime since people would deathball around me, and anything that was any threat I would just use the PPC + AC20 to finish them off, most of the time I never saw the enemy but got more damage than most players all while constantly running at the enemy. Probably wouldn't work so well with 12v12 though.
ECM is really the only thing going for an Atlas LRMer, but at that point I still suggest some other build if you actually want to be effective.


Cataphract2x, LRM boating? You're kidding, you're kidding right? Moving along....

Catapults in General:
Personally these my favorite LRM boaters I've used so far, and my favorite mechs. Slap in an XL 315, add some jumpjets and you can get away from anything that isn't an upgraded light. You're also just the right speed to get people to chase after you, and it's easy to stick with the team. Also, remember to open those doors, so it doesn't feel like you are lagging when you shoot.
However, Catapult was the first mech I mastered, so I may have to go back to it to make some better builds when I get some more mechbay slots, even if the mechs already felt perfect as they were.
A1 - Personally I have not tried the 6 LRM 5 build yet (Played it when Splatcats were popular, tempted to do all SRMs, or quad srms with some LRMs during that time), but I've seen people use it to great effect. Supposedly it doesn't need the Tag Laser to have effective LRMs (which wouldn't surprise me but I haven't tested it). Also, the psychological effect of being hit with a stream of these is pretty massive and is one thing the A1 excels at.
C4 - This was my go-to LRM boat for a while since it was just a bunch of missles, and could have a tag laser (which I love to use cause Lights love to think they can outrun LRMs). This was before I wanted to have self defense on my LRM boats, and just wanted the hardest hitting loadout.
C1 - Originally I prefered the C4 over this, but I may revisit this Since the Thunderbolt 9SE and some other mechs made me fall in love with slapping medium lasers on LRM boats,

Thunderbolt 9SE - This is the wannabe Catapult if you try to LRM boat this. Though, considering all your weapons are in one torso, and your side torsos are easy to hit, just use a catapult. However, when I was using this, people would absolutely charge into my team trying to kill me everytime, while they get massacred from focusing on me too much (and I'd usually come out of it without much damage anyways). However one nice thing about the Thunderbolt is that it's arms can be used as shields very easily, so if you are good enough with torso twisting, the side torso problem isn't too big of a deal.




Everything else is just me taking a look at smurfy, going off of my experience from fighting them and guessing how effective they'd be.
Haven't done a true Light, Medium, or Assault LRM boat yet, but here's my opinion on them for now:
Lights: I will only slap in a single LRM 5, just for psychological effect and to lure someone towards you since it's damage is too small to really phase anyone. You'd be better off using Lasers for damage.
Mediums: I usually see people slapping on multiple LRM 5s to any of these, but nothing bigger than that. Though, I will say Kintaro LRM boats are the most annoying Medium LRM boats to fight against.
Assaults: Considering how positioning is so important with LRM boating, LRM boating on an Assault seems like the most luck based build in the entire game. You'll get massive damage when you are able to hit someone though, that's for sure, but you have soo much weight you have no excuse not to bring backup weapons.


Out of the mechs I see right now, here are the ones I expect to do well with LRMs.
Lights: N/A, you just don't have enough weight for the ammo required to really boat.
Mediums: Trebuchet 7m, Griffins (depending on what you want), Kintaro (except 20, 5 LRM 5s are a pain for your enemy), Shadowhawk (depending on what you want), Wolverine 7k
Note: Mediums have a lot of variety when it comes to what you want to do with an LRM boat. Also, Centurions, you are zombie masters, get some SRMs and show your zombie powers. I suppose you could LRM boat with them though.
Heavies: Catapult (No Surprise), Thunderbolt 9SE (and maybe 5S), Maybe Quichdraw 4h, Maybe Orion
Note: Jager A I'm afraid to put here because I worry for it's self defense, since Ballstics are probably too heavy to keep being LRM heavy, and there's only 2 energy slots.
Assaults: Battlemaster 1S, Highlander (self defense problems), Awesome 8R (self defense problems),
Note: Stalker is a strange one because it has such tiny tubes on it's missle hardpoints. It used to be the most popular missle boat (and you still see it a lot). If you don't mind streaming a little, it has plenty of backup weapon slots.


I will probably always like Catapult the most for LRM boating, I find it to be the sexiest Inner Sphere design and the perfect blend of manueverability and firepower for hard hitting LRMing. It'll be replaced by the Mad Dog whenever it gets in, too bad Mad Dog can't get Jumpjets though, I love being in the air. ;) Also, if the LRMs are fired like they were in MW2, all the more reason for me to want to use the Mad Dog, however I forsee a slight rise in AMS if that happens.
*continues the search through Sarna in case his dream mech is still hidden somewhere*

#78 Orbit Rain

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

View PostEscef, on 19 May 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Subject was quiet for 3 days, if you want it to stay that way don't go poking it, man.

3 days and one post forum-warrior. oops...fed a troll....damn...

#79 RLBell

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:33 PM

View PostKeeshu, on 20 May 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:


Note: Stalker is a strange one because it has such tiny tubes on it's missle hardpoints. It used to be the most popular missle boat (and you still see it a lot). If you don't mind streaming a little, it has plenty of backup weapon slots.



A lot of backup weapons possible on a Stalker is handy. The -3H has more tubes, twenty in each arm and six in each side torso, so it can launch great blobs of fifty missiles.

#80 Escef

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 12:01 AM

View PostOrbit Rain, on 20 May 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

3 days and one post forum-warrior. oops...fed a troll....damn...

Dude, are you trying to pick a fight? For why? Do you find it offensive when someone tells you the best way to keep a dead argument dead is to not poke at it?





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