133 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

I have not addressed the OP. I neither refute it nor endorse it. You do not take actions or make decisions for me.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 May 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

I have not addressed the OP. I neither refute it nor endorse it. You do not take actions or make decisions for me.

Correct, you have not addressed the OP nor the threads purpose. You're arguing semantic tangents for no purpose.

Please post on topic.

Thanks

[Jaroth Corbett]

Incorrect. I am providing facts based on canon to refute incorrect statements you have made. My purpose is the truth.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 May 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Incorrect. I am providing facts based on canon to refute incorrect statements you have made. My purpose is the truth.

soooooooo

Craig Steele, on 17 May 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I am quoting you.



The fact that you have not refuted any of the quoted content from the OP is your endorsement from your own words. Your absence of refuting them is the admission they are correct. After all, if they were incorrect you would have already refuted them.

Thats what you said anyway?

Want to argue your own words now?

It's very clear from your beligerence that if there was any errors in the OP you would have pulled it to pieces well before now.

I don't think the world really needs this extra drama in their life. Can we move and stay on topic.

Thanks

[Featherwood]

I wasn't able to force myself to read all that, khmmm, discussion. Can someone enlighten me, please, who is winning and what's the score?

[Khobai]

why does any of this matter, its not like MWO will ever have a Tukkayid scenario.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Troll - 0
Logic - 1
We are hallway through the second game and it looks like logic is ahead. This could mean that Logic could seal the win up if they beat Troll this match.

But on a slightly more serious note, Craig you seem to try to pull us back on topic, but then argue for posts about the things you say we bring up. You start the arguments and you seem eager to get out when it looks grim for yourself. And the error in the OP is the lack of everything pertaining to the OP`s subject, that is an error. Its like half writing a story and turning it in, it would be failed for being incomplete. That is the problem. Also what Jaroth has brought up is an error in your "canon". But you know, those are not errors to you, just everyone else.

Edited by Silence Jin Mang, 17 May 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

What error did I make?

[Silence Jin Mang]

No no, like the error you brought up is an error. Not you made the error, sorry for the misconception. Went and re-worded it.

Edited by Silence Jin Mang, 17 May 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Zerberus]

[Jaroth Corbett]

Silence Jin Mang, on 17 May 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

No no, like the error you brought up is an error. Not you made the error, sorry for the misconception. Went and re-worded it.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Gotcha.

[CoffiNail]

*walks in, looks at all the fur and feathers on the floor. Walks back out*

[Uncle Totty]

Khobai, on 17 May 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

why does any of this matter, its not like MWO will ever have a Tukkayid scenario.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 17 May 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

You know as well as I do there are in canon literally thousands of uncharted and uninhabited systems throughout the Inner Sphere. Melissa Steiner kidnapping, Clan Wolf forward positioning of supplies, SLDF Naval base in the Dark Nebula. Examples everywhere.

If the Clans could carry all the Supplies they needed to attack 25+ worlds of the IS in wave one, they most certainly could have transposted their forces and more to Terra without ever appearing in an IS system.

If their only goal was Terra, they never needed to set foot anywhere else.

But you're seemingly willing to argue the semantics on tangents because you cannot refute the key point, it was not a Trial for Terra until Focht and Ulric made terms, and those terms are recorded herein.

But was the hole point of Op. Revival (the race to Terra) to see who was worthy of being ilClan?

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 16 May 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

The Il Khan is the Grand Councils representative in Military matters, he has the Grand Councils authority. His job (that he swore on his bloodright to execute faithfully) is to bring the Grand Councils military plans to a successful completion.

There is no scenario where the Il Khan is seperate in canon. The Il Khan has no purpose except to bring about the Grand Councils will (in military matters)

I suspect the results of the battle tells us that perhaps the Khans were requiring someone to "hold their hands" if that's the terminology you wish to use. The Grand Council certainly thought so before Operation Revivial commenced, and they still thought so for the battle of Tukayyid, that's why they appointed / voted an Il Khan to co ordinate the battles. The Il Khan is not some cermonial figurehead with no responsibility, he is there for a reason.

PS, Canon doesn't say Ulric gave "strategic advice" to the Smoke Jaguars, it says he ordered them to retreat. A better strategic decision at this juncture might have been to reinforce the SJ's breakthrough with another Clan that was targeting 2 unimportant cities (like umm, say Clan Wolf?). That's what Focht showed several times during the campaign, a willingness to redeploy troops to acheive his goals.

I have found a quote that should clear up who was responsible for how the battle was conducted.

Lost Destiny, Chapter 42

Quote

Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"
The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."
So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."
"You are the victor, Anastasius. You need not flatter the vanquished. Through what you have done, through the death and the misery, you have shown my fellow Khans what I could not. Had I led them and been defeated, I would have been taken down—I might yet be—because the failure would have been mine."
Ulric again looked around the valley at the grayish bodies covering the hillsides. "Now they must understand what their crusade has caused and they must accept responsibility for it."

As you can see, Ulric did not have much operational control over what the individual clans did in the battle. Even when he tried to give strategic advice for the Smoke Jaguars to retreat, half of the force disobeyed him. The only reason that he gave that order was because both Khans were thought to be dead and any further fighting would be a waste because the SJ forces would not be coordinated.

As to your assertion that some of the cities were unimportant, in the trial each city had the exact same level of importance. The only value placed on the individual cities was how much glory could be attained by capturing them. The actual sound tactical decision would be shift the forces from harder targets to easier targets increase the chances of securing the necessary 7 cites to achieve the victory. But all of that thinking is for naught because Ulric really did not have the power to dictate to the Khans where they should attack as that had already been decided.

Edited by VanillaG, 18 May 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[General Pete]

You know what I think about these points, Vanilla G? (This is of course my opinion). I think everything that went down, right down to the other Khans pulling control out of Ulric's grasp, the smoke jags ignoring his advice, etc. was all exactly what Ulric wanted to happen. I think he manipulated the council to get them to jump into the Tukayid meat grinder and lose. There's such a thing as reverse psychology- it works fantastic on kids, and that, after all, is what the Clan warrior caste is comprised of. And before someone argues that there are older clan warriors (like that ancient Falcon Khan), my opinion is that not only are such the rare exception, but also even those people have all the 'adult maturity' of the schoolyard bully, intimidating his fellows. No one who grows in that environment is comparable to an actual adult, such as you'll find in the inner sphere or in the modern day real world. Ulric set the clans up big time, and I think he deserves a medal for it, instead of a trial of 'let's kill ulric', like he got. Think of that punk kid in the Firestarter that you just can't seem to drop as he circle of deaths you on Alpine Peaks- would you want a horde of him running the country?

[Gyrok]

General Pete, on 18 May 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You know what I think about these points, Vanilla G? (This is of course my opinion). I think everything that went down, right down to the other Khans pulling control out of Ulric's grasp, the smoke jags ignoring his advice, etc. was all exactly what Ulric wanted to happen. I think he manipulated the council to get them to jump into the Tukayid meat grinder and lose. There's such a thing as reverse psychology- it works fantastic on kids, and that, after all, is what the Clan warrior caste is comprised of. And before someone argues that there are older clan warriors (like that ancient Falcon Khan), my opinion is that not only are such the rare exception, but also even those people have all the 'adult maturity' of the schoolyard bully, intimidating his fellows. No one who grows in that environment is comparable to an actual adult, such as you'll find in the inner sphere or in the modern day real world. Ulric set the clans up big time, and I think he deserves a medal for it, instead of a trial of 'let's kill ulric', like he got. Think of that punk kid in the Firestarter that you just can't seem to drop as he circle of deaths you on Alpine Peaks- would you want a horde of him running the country?

I doubt it is what he wanted, but I think by the time Tukayyid came to pass, he realized that the other clans were beyond his capability to reach in terms of understanding the Inner Sphere and the workings of the militaries therein. I also think that to some degree he took some minor satisfaction from the fact that he offered advice, and everyone told him where he could go, then promptly failed in their over confidence.

[Uncle Totty]

General Pete, on 18 May 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You know what I think about these points, Vanilla G? (This is of course my opinion). I think everything that went down, right down to the other Khans pulling control out of Ulric's grasp, the smoke jags ignoring his advice, etc. was all exactly what Ulric wanted to happen. I think he manipulated the council to get them to jump into the Tukayid meat grinder and lose. There's such a thing as reverse psychology- it works fantastic on kids, and that, after all, is what the Clan warrior caste is comprised of. And before someone argues that there are older clan warriors (like that ancient Falcon Khan), my opinion is that not only are such the rare exception, but also even those people have all the 'adult maturity' of the schoolyard bully, intimidating his fellows. No one who grows in that environment is comparable to an actual adult, such as you'll find in the inner sphere or in the modern day real world. Ulric set the clans up big time, and I think he deserves a medal for it, instead of a trial of 'let's kill ulric', like he got. Think of that punk kid in the Firestarter that you just can't seem to drop as he circle of deaths you on Alpine Peaks- would you want a horde of him running the country?

And for this, I like your post.

[ErikModi]

Oh, boy.

Set aside any personal feelings about any individual Clan or person, and look just at the facts.

Because Wolf was primarily a Warden Clan, and Ulric was a Warden, the Crusader Clans didn't trust him. Ulric didn't win any friends by bringing in other Clans to reinforce the "underperforming" Clans in the invasion, and doubly so when he assigned Clans who really didn't get along to the same invasion corridors (Steel Viper/Jade Falcon, Nova Cat/Smoke Jaguar, Diamond Shark/Ghost Bear.) So when time came for the Battle of Tukayyid, none of the Khans were really interested in taking Ulric's advice. Because of, not despite, Clan Wolf's successes in the invasion, the other Clans saw Wolf as a rival to be marginalized, not an example to be looked up to. That kind rivalry is just fundamental to the Clans at this point, for better and worse.

While this quirk of Clan honor likely would have come into play in any event, the fact that Ulric was not a well-liked ilKhan, and Wolf was not a well-liked Clan, meant that it would be much, much more important. Regardless of who was ilKhan at the time, the individual Clan Khans likely would not have all marched under the banner of any one ilKhan, fighting an organized, combined battle to the benefit of all the Clans. Every Clan warrior is taught to better their own Clan first, all the others. . . well, maybe eventually.

As well, the Clan bidding process took its toll. Having done so well in the invasion thus far, the Clans were convinced that, in a stand-up fight, they could steamroll any Inner Sphere force arrayed against them. They either didn't know or didn't care that Comstar had kept Star-League era technology among all its units, assuming their technological edge would still win out. They also disregarded the skill of the ComGuards themselves, since they were not "battle-tested" units, and assumed that their superior training and superior breeding would give them another edge. They also completely discounted the fact that Anastasius Focht had spent a lot of time among the Clans, knew how they fought, and knew what kinds of battles they preferred to fight. Knowing that the Clans like ammunition-heavy builds, Focht planned to fight a long, attrition-based campaign, taxing Clan supply lines and hitting units when their firepower had been depleted. This concept would return as "entropy-based warfare" during the Twilight of the Clans series. While Ulric counseled the Clans to prepare for long, drawn-out engagements, as established, no one was interested in listening to him, assuming at best that he had no idea how to wage a "proper" Clan contest, at worst that any advice he would give was for the sole purpose of undermining their efforts and either allow the Wolves to win the day easily, or to stop an invasion Ulric had never really supported in the first place. Moreover, the post of ilKhan isn't really "Commander in Chief." The Khans are loathe to give that level authority to anyone, even though they all crave it (the whole ilClan thing probably would never have worked in practice.) The individual Clans and Khans are still responsible for setting their general orders of battle, and individual commanders responsible for their part of it. That's the whole point of bidding for the right to take a particular prize. The commanders who are bidding earn the right to do things their way, without any real oversight from their superiors besides "get it done." In macrocosm, that's what happened at Tukayyid. Ulric set the main goal for the battle (take these 12 cities and we win Terra), the Khans set the main targets and orders of battle, and the field commanders (Khans among them), set the actual tactics and logistics for achieving their objectives.

The long and the short of it is, the Clans were utterly unprepared for the kind of battle they would face on Tukayyid. They did not expect to be fighting combined arms forces as integrated as the ComGuards were, using strike and fade tactics to sap their strength and frustrate them into foolhardiness (though this sometimes paid off for the Clans, who pccasionally just got pissed enough to dismantle their opposition.) In the end, Focht won because he was fighting seven different opponents with zero co-ordination, instead of one unified force. Divide and conquer.

Did Ulric want the invasion to falter? Of course he did. He's a Warden. But, as ilKhan, he was also bound to carry out the will of the Council, which was to keep the invasion going. He couldn't just order everyone to turn around and go home, nor could he, as some have insinuated, deliberately feed the Clans into a meat-grinder. He did try and warn the other Khans about what they would face on Tukayyid, but they chose not to listen to him. Did Ulric tarnish his own reputation for precisely such an outcome? Unlikely, but certainly possible. As ilKhan, Ulric Kerensky was in a position to influence, if not halt, the invasion, keeping atrocities to a bare minimum and hampering the efforts of his rival Clans (as Leo Showers had done before, make no mistake.) But was his ultimate endgame to get the Clans to break on an Inner Sphere defense they simply couldn't counter? It's likely he saw something like Tukayyid coming, especially when he revealed to Focht that the Clans' ultimate goal was Earth. But even so, the more effective way to promote the Warden agenda was to have Clan Wolf become the ilClan. I seem to recall dialogue stating more or less exactly that in one of the Blood of Kerensky books, I can't recall which one or where exactly off the top of my head. But I seem to recall Ulric more or less explaining himself to Phelan, saying that his ultimate goal was for Wolf to become the ilClan and start using that authority to make changes across Clan society and outlook as a whole, eventually undoing Crusader philosophy entirely. The lesson of Tukayyid was quite different. It was showing the Clans that their concepts of ritualized warfare didn't apply, that the Inner Sphere wasn't simply going to abide by decisions made in abstract duels. When it came to defending their homes, the Sphereoids would fight with everything they had, hold nothing back, and the only way to beat them was to do the same. As much as the Clans are a warrior society, they have so sanitized and abstracted the concept of war that they've completely forgotten what warfare actually is. In essence, the Clans don't go to war, have never gone to war. They fight their challenges, run their Trials, and pat themselves on the back for finding a better, cleaner way to do things. When confronted with the Inner Sphere concept of total war, the Clans are simply ill-equipped to deal with it. They claim dishonorable conduct and breaching of protocols, while failing to understand that in war, real war, there is no winning, only lesser degrees of losing.

General Pete, on 18 May 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You know what I think about these points, Vanilla G? (This is of course my opinion). I think everything that went down, right down to the other Khans pulling control out of Ulric's grasp, the smoke jags ignoring his advice, etc. was all exactly what Ulric wanted to happen. I think he manipulated the council to get them to jump into the Tukayid meat grinder and lose. There's such a thing as reverse psychology- it works fantastic on kids, and that, after all, is what the Clan warrior caste is comprised of. And before someone argues that there are older clan warriors (like that ancient Falcon Khan), my opinion is that not only are such the rare exception, but also even those people have all the 'adult maturity' of the schoolyard bully, intimidating his fellows. No one who grows in that environment is comparable to an actual adult, such as you'll find in the inner sphere or in the modern day real world. Ulric set the clans up big time, and I think he deserves a medal for it, instead of a trial of 'let's kill ulric', like he got. Think of that punk kid in the Firestarter that you just can't seem to drop as he circle of deaths you on Alpine Peaks- would you want a horde of him running the country?

Well said.

[General Pete]

Thanks, ErikModi! I pretty much agree with your post, my only comments are my opinions on motives and practical use of definitions.
As for motives, you're right Ulric couldn't 'feed the invasion force to the meat grinder', but that's where my comment on reverse psychology comes in- there's nothing saying he had to keep the clans from voluntarily (even spitefully) walking into one. Basically I am saying he played a subtler game than the others around him were able to recognize and got his way through subtle manipulation. For example, let's say you're Ulric- you know the smoke jags and the nova cats hate each other's guts real bad. So... pair them together, make them work together, on your own authority? Why do that? It looks like you're punishing both Clans and trying to stick it to them. What friend, what political capital, do you get doing a thing like that? None, but you make sure they both hate you more and are less likely to do what you want later on, like give you complete command at a thing like Tukkayid, or even pull out and retreat when you suggest it. That could goad them into staying to fight- and that's just what the smokes did, wasn't it? Age and treachery will always beat youth and enthusiasm, and Ulric is good proof.

As for practical definitions, this is more a question I have than a statement. Was what happened to the Wolverine clan a trial? Sure it's what the Clans call a trial, but a whole clan wiped out... looks more on a scale of a war to me.
Or Operation Bulldog/Serpent. You can call that a trial of refusal, but... damn, that was an operation as big as the IS has ever seen. How about after that, where the Star Adders are working to wipe out the Blood Spirits. Yes, it's a 'Trial of Absorption', but planet-wide fighting? I read in the Crusader Clan sourcebook that the Blood Spirits ignore zellbrigin completely when defending their homeworld, and they pride themselves on being the most 'clan-like' clan...My question is, when do you call a spade a spade and not a trial?