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Implementation Suggestion For Targeting Computer


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#1 Xistic

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 10:28 PM

For the targeting computer I suggest we superimpose the paper doll onto the enemy mech.

Something like this (and I would like to preemptively apologize for the art B) ):

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Alternatively an always present boarder could be present to give an advantage even if the target is undamaged.

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When a torso is damaged (no armor left, some damage past that) on the front but the armor is intact on the back (or vice versa) there should be a visual representation of armor from the back side. (Again I apologize for the art and poor color choices.)

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And with a border.

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This would also help with targeting at a distance.

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Balance Considerations
Part of the mech that are visually obstructed should not be highlighted. While this seems unimportant as you already have a box around a target you can't see, it would give a major advantage to shooting through trees. This would also give the advantage of knowing when an otherwise hard to see target is behind cover.

The highlight should not appear until target info is gathered. The targeting computer will not affect this process in any way. This means that the targeting computer will benefit from beagle active probes, target info gathering modules, and anything else that expedites target info gathering. Likewise ECM will negatively impact a targeting computer.

Heat/Night Vision
The targeting computer should not work with heat and night vision. Otherwise the targeting computer almost completely overcomes the weaknesses of these vision modes. This would also make the opportunity cost considerations more interesting for these modes.

Hit Location Outline
Each section of the target mech could be separately outlined regardless of damage. This would bestow a benefit before any damage occurs.

Additional Possible Features/Alternatives

Convergence Help
The targeting computer assumes that you want to converge at the distance of the target regardless of what you are pointing at. This would help hit moving targets at range with more munitions as the convergence would be closer to correct regardless of how much you must lead the target. This would increase the skill needed to use the targeting computer as now your weapon convergence is going to depend on proper targeting.

Alternatively it would adjust the convergence away from the target if pointing directly at another mech or more than a certain angle away from the target or something similar.

Ballistic Help
Also ballistic weapons could automatically be adjusted up to compensate for distance to selected target in a similar fashion.

Both of these helps would still operate in heat and night vision modes.

Heck, if it did just these two things I would be pretty happy, but they do nothing to benefit energy weapons so that would need to be addressed.

Energy Weapon Lock
When an energy weapon is fired it locks onto the point struck. During the duration of the shot moving the cross-hair away from the initial point will have the weapon trail behind targeting a point between the cross-hair and the initial point of contact. If the cross-hair moves a certain threshold the lock is lost and the weapon centers on the cross-hair. An illustration is helpful in this case:

Posted Image

The biggest problem with this is that it gives much of the advantage of pulse lasers to all lasers. Pulse lasers are underutilized as it is. I would suggest that different lasers lock better then others. For example pulse lasers have a larger threshold and follow cross-hair divergence less then vanilla lasers and even less than ER large lasers. Different sized lasers might behave differently too.

I worry that Energy Weapon Lock (in general, but more so with pulse) might be OP and work too well against light mechs.

These suggestions do almost nothing to help PPCs so that must be considered also.

Similar Suggestions Made Previously
After coming up with this I did a search for other suggestions for the targeting computer.

Lead indicator - problematic as different weapons have different leads. This could be overcome by only showing a lead indicator for the currently selected weapon. (Or one for every weapon, but that is messy.)
(Edit) Someone mentioned a year ago that this also takes away a major advantage of light mechs. Legging a running Jenner with an AC20 across the caldera in Terra Therma (I've done it!) should have you jumping out of your seat. With a lead indicator it becomes almost routine. It shifts the game in favor of Ballistics weapons more than it already is.

Highlighting selected body part of choice - too hard to select intended part to target while fighting and overcome by main suggestion.

Ballistic Drop Adjustment - Similar problem as lead indicator. Could be overcome by auto adjusting guns up to compensate for distance to target lock as opposed to the original suggestion of "whatever you are pointing at".
Alternatively it could work as part of a lead indicator after applying the suggested improvements.

Some level of auto aim - No. See problems with light mechs and the lead indicator mentioned above.

I may also be suggesting what was already mentioned here (but I never played MW2 so I don't know)


TT Purists
As I understand it (I'm not a TT player) the TT describes the targeting computer as a system of computers, stabilizers, actuators, and gyroscopes that enabled the pilots to better aim at their targets.

Using this as a guide for designing the in-game equivalent we run into a few problems.

This implies that without this system it's harder to aim in general. The cross-hair is shaky, shots have some spread, you have to hold your head just right for things to line up, etc. The targeting computer is supposed to combat that to make it feel more like, well... like it does right now for everyone.

The convergence/ballistic/energy help suggestions above was as close as I think we can get to the spirit of the TT without suggesting auto-aim and nerfs to the accuracy and handling of the existing weapon systems. Alone it would not be worth the 1 ton per 5 of direct fire weapons, (unless dealing with light mechs, the energy weapon buff should be considered carefully), introducing problems to the existing systems is probably a really bad idea, and this leaves PPCs out in the cold. More needs to be done.

Let me know what you think.

--Xistic

Edited by Xistic, 19 May 2014 - 07:14 AM.


#2 Finster

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 12:26 AM

I think this is a great idea and well thought out! Titanfall has a somewhat similar mechanic in that damaged titans will have highlighted portions that appear to other titan pilots, and hits on those areas do extra damage. Adding a more skill-based mechanic to the Targeting Computer would be a good mix that shouldn't break things but should hopefully maintain a high skill ceiling.

#3 fandre

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:47 AM

Great idea :angry:

#4 Jacon Ceronia

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:41 AM

I agree, this is a fantastic way to integrate the Clan targeting computer without making it feel OP. Well done sir!!

Someone should share this with PGI. Its good enough that they should at least consider this path.

#5 Xistic

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 01:09 PM

Edited with idea for energy weapon TC enhancements.

#6 Legacy Wing

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:00 AM

Best idea I've heard so far; superimposing the data from the "paper doll" over the vulnerable spots on the target is an advantage that actually manages to be worth the one-ton-for-every-five cost while not being overpowering. Heck, high-level players are doing this in their heads already, by memorizing the hit boxes for all of the chassis and glancing up at the corner of their heads up display to find vulnerabilities on the enemy damage display. But with this system anyone can do it, and they don't have to take their eyes off the action for a second--so long as they are willing to pay the cost in critical slots and tonnage. It's great because it isn't "must have" technology, but it's still really helpful.

I also like how this system will give a boost to Beagle Active Probes and Target Info Gathering modules. Plus I like how it benefits TAG and NARC: now you have another reason to carry systems for slicing through an enemy ECM field. The idea of "augmenting" a Targeting Computer with a TAG laser is just fun.

#7 Xistic

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:09 AM

Edit: Clarified energy lock OP concerns and added suggestion for area highlighting.

#8 crossflip

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:20 AM

I think the first part of your post is a brilliant idea. Maybe we could have the targeting computer be a 5-10 second trigger bound to its own key, and make it do the things mentioned during that time.

#9 Finster

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:18 AM

@Xistic,

It's interesting that you called out pulse lasers as being possibly OP with a Targeting Computer. That's exactly how it was in TT. They very rarely nerfed ANYTHING in TT, but Pulse Laser + Targeting Computer was one of them.

View Postcrossflip, on 19 May 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I think the first part of your post is a brilliant idea. Maybe we could have the targeting computer be a 5-10 second trigger bound to its own key, and make it do the things mentioned during that time.


I can't say that I agree at all. Bindable key means I'm tying that to a keyboard macro that keeps it activated all the time, like I already do with TAG. Give it a cooldown, you say? Well, that might be the PGI way, but it makes it more complicated than it needs to be, and for something that could weigh 6-7 tons and take 6-7 crit slots, it needs to be something of real value.

#10 Jacon Ceronia

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:25 AM

View PostLegacy Wing, on 19 May 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

It's great because it isn't "must have" technology, but it's still really helpful.


Exactly. It would be less of a game changer than say ECM is currently. Especially since your success rate with a TC, working in a manner as described by the OP, would still be highly skill based. However, it would be useful enough to provide some character to those Clan chassis that utilize a TC, attracting a specific cross-section of the player base. Which to me sounds like PGIs end goal with Clan mechs anyway.

View PostLegacy Wing, on 19 May 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

I also like how this system will give a boost to Beagle Active Probes and Target Info Gathering modules. Plus I like how it benefits TAG and NARC: now you have another reason to carry systems for slicing through an enemy ECM field. The idea of "augmenting" a Targeting Computer with a TAG laser is just fun.


Stop it already! You're making my mouth water... !)

#11 Finster

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:12 AM

It just occurred to me...

I bet PGI will just implement auto-aim.

Auto-aim is kind of a solved problem, in that lots of other games have implemented it, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's already code out there for auto-aim in the Crytek engine.

This thought made me sad... I hope they don't do that.

Edited by Finster, 19 May 2014 - 11:12 AM.


#12 Craigolas

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:52 PM

Great idea. It could also be neat if the body part glowed when the reticle passes over it. Let you know when you're on target.

#13 Xistic

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:32 PM

View PostCraigolas, on 19 May 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Great idea. It could also be neat if the body part glowed when the reticle passes over it. Let you know when you're on target.


I like that. Maybe as an alternative to drawing a border around all hit locations as I originally suggested they could do the encompassing outline all the time and a hit location outline for whatever is in the cross-hairs.

View PostFinster, on 19 May 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

It just occurred to me...

I bet PGI will just implement auto-aim.

Auto-aim is kind of a solved problem, in that lots of other games have implemented it, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's already code out there for auto-aim in the Crytek engine.

This thought made me sad... I hope they don't do that.


Yeah, and it will either makes lights super effective (no auto leading) or DOA (auto leading of projectile weapons).

#14 Xistic

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:39 PM

View Postcrossflip, on 19 May 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I think the first part of your post is a brilliant idea. Maybe we could have the targeting computer be a 5-10 second trigger bound to its own key, and make it do the things mentioned during that time.


I don't think that would work well. We already have to fight with so many keys to begin with, it only makes sense to integrate it with the existing targeting mechanism.

#15 Xistic

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:50 PM

View Postfandre, on 18 May 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Great idea :(

Thank you.

#16 Koniving

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:52 PM

While a great idea, I think this would be too strong of an advantage in a game with massive pinpoint damage.
If the game was much more damage over time based, there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with this idea.

Instead, I think I'd be content with the ability to select body parts for missiles to hit (though this is advantageous as well) and/or an indicator telling me where I have to aim to hit with a selected weapon.

An enemy is going this fast, in this direction. Icon appears ahead of that player which says without a word: 'shoot here to hit enemy player with UAC/2'. Like target leads on space sims.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:03 PM

Related to the purist tidbit.
Spoiler


#18 Khobai

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:42 PM

You guys think the targeting computer is actually gonna do anything? LOL. PGI isnt gonna waste their time on silly details like that.

#19 Xistic

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:48 PM

View PostKoniving, on 19 May 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

While a great idea, I think this would be too strong of an advantage in a game with massive pinpoint damage.
If the game was much more damage over time based, there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with this idea.


The main suggestion is for highlighting body parts so you know where to shoot. The additional helps are additional suggestions and if you believe they are too powerful I can respect that. However, 1 extra ton and slot per 5 tons of direct fire weapons (rounded up) is a very high cost to not include something to help with the aim somewhat. Also the effectiveness of those helps (at least the energy aiming help) can be scaled. Also you still need to get in the initial hit of each blast in the correct spot. If you miss you are locked onto that rough spot for the duration of the shot unless you pull away.

Ballistic help means you don't need to worry about shot arc, but you still have to know how much to lead the target.

Convergence help you still have to lead to hit the target.

View PostKoniving, on 19 May 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Instead, I think I'd be content with the ability to select body parts for missiles to hit (though this is advantageous as well) and/or an indicator telling me where I have to aim to hit with a selected weapon.


A TC is meant to improve direct fire weapons.

View PostKoniving, on 19 May 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

An enemy is going this fast, in this direction. Icon appears ahead of that player which says without a word: 'shoot here to hit enemy player with UAC/2'. Like target leads on space sims.


As I mentioned in the OP. A target lead indicator is too powerful. It significantly reduces the major advantage a light mech has, its speed. Having an indicator where to aim to lead a light with an AC/20 on a light would be very unbalanced. If the lead indicator is tuned to a specific type of munition then what is the point?

View PostKhobai, on 19 May 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

You guys think the targeting computer is actually gonna do anything? LOL. PGI isnt gonna waste their time on silly details like that.


Well then it better not cost 1 ton/slot per 5 tons of direct fire weapons to do nothing.

#20 Khobai

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:51 PM

Quote

Well then it better not cost 1 ton/slot per 5 tons of direct fire weapons to do nothing.


Only on the Masakari.





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