163 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrXB_BaMZcw&feature=youtu.be

I think the video and description explains it all really. 27 large lasers on a jagermech that is in pointblank range and he doesnt die....where is all that damage dissapearing to?

Something is very wrong here. I keep seeing people tank ridiculous amounts of damage in close range even if they arent bothering to dodge. I even had a HBK-4G go toe to toe with my near mint Atlas and he almost won....and he was pretty much hugging my mech so it was impossible to miss. Alpha after alpha was like throwing spitballs.

Edit : Does anyone know what the max dimensions of a video are on youtube? Everytime i upload a nice and large video, youtube resizes them to this small size and its hard to tell whats going on.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[Scratx]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think the video and description explains it all really. 27 large lasers on a jagermech that is in pointblank range and he doesnt die....where is all that damage dissapearing to?

Something is very wrong here. I keep seeing people tank ridiculous amounts of damage in close range even if they arent bothering to dodge.

Edit : Does anyone know what the max dimensions of a video are on youtube? Everytime i upload a nice and large video, youtube resizes them to this small size and its hard to tell whats going on.

I might've missed some, but I'm not sure you fired 27 LL's on him. In any case, a few of them outright missed, a few were only partial hits and quite a few scored across multiple sections. He had a standard engine, so when you blew off a side torso, it didn't really faze him.

Seems legit to me.

[Jun Watarase]

I didnt miss at all (on my screen at least), i replayed the video multiple times and confirmed it. I only missed the second half of my last alpha because of the shut down, but i still got about half a second of burn time on his exposed CT before i shut down.

Check the maths in the description. 240+ damage is almost enough to take out all 3 torso sections, and his RT was still in yellow or orange armor at the end.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Well, I think you did hit with most of your initial shots, but the long laser duration and his lateral movement looked to have spread some of the laser damage out over his torsos plus behind him.

Basically, your stats at point of destruction put you at 460 points of damage at 4:21 in the game. If you did do 240+ points of damage on that Jager, that means your other 1 Kill/ 3 Assist took only 220 points to achieve, which is a bit low (55 damage per), especially considering your loadout had LRMs.

You did blow off one side torso without much assistance, so that's about 60 damage there IIRC. There looked to be something oddish, but not fully outside realm of possibility IMO.

EDIT: Oh, don't forget hitting destroyed parts half damage transfer, so some of your hits to the destroyed RT may have been at reduced damage to CT.

Edited by Lynx7725, 05 May 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[ProtoformX]

Couple problems here-
1.) You're spreading damage all over the place and your lasers drag off to the side of the Enemy 'Mech multiple times, reducing damage.
2.) You're hitting that side torso that's already destroyed, reducing the damage you're doing to the CT.
3.) Firing 3 LL at once triggers ghost heat. You would have trounced the Jager(and maybe one of his buddies) if you'd have stuck to 2 LL at a time.

[Jun Watarase]

I mean that i was supposed to do 200+ damage to that Jagermech, even accounting for some of the lasers missing a bit. Before the Jagermech showed up, i was mostly firing LRMs since i was way out of range to do anything else. I fired about 500 LRMs, at a 40% average accuracy rate, thats about 200 damage.

Replayed the video, again. Most of it hit pretty accurately on my screen, but at 200 ms ping the game probably decided the jagermech was in a different position, which is why a lot of the initial damage went to the LT when i was hitting the CT.

Ghost heat really isnt that bad for 3 LL, but i do see your point. Even with the ghost heat though, the jagermech should have died in 4 or 5 alphas tops. Not tank 9 of them. Oh funfact : Chain firing the lasers to avoid ghost heat would still have slowed your heat dissipation since you cant dissipate any heat all during the laser burn time...

What do you mean about half damage transfer...? Ive never seen that mentioned anywhere, and IIRC in the closed beta PGI just said they were adding damage transfer from destroyed side torsos, but no mention that there was a 50% penalty. I still remember the invulnerable jenners with destroyed side torsos...

P.S. Is anyone else getting a blank box with embedded youtube vids in firefox? Its annoying the heck out of me....

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 05:24 PM.

[Durandal]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Edit : Does anyone know what the max dimensions of a video are on youtube? Everytime i upload a nice and large video, youtube resizes them to this small size and its hard to tell whats going on.

Don't think it's Youtube, just something on the forum that keeps you going fullscreen with an embedded video. Looked fine on youtube itself.

As for the damage, there's definitely a good amount of spread to your lasers. A couple shots stay centered at one point, but quite a few you draw little shapes across the mech as you turn/move your mouse, so some of your "torso" shots stray to the arms, legs, and empty air. Also keep in mind that, while your lasers are all aimed at the same spot, their location in their hardpoints means at close range they are getting caught by parts of the mech you're targeting before they hit...which, as has been noted, means you're doing less damage to that CT since the ST you destroyed is catching part of the damage. As examples go, look around :45, you'll notice you shoot all three lasers, but for a second they all hit different parts of the mech.

As someone who uses energy weapons almost exclusively in 90% of his mechs, including a whole series of games between 600-1000 damage last night, I would disagree with the assumption that lasers are buggy...if anything, I see more consistent damage from them than I do from any other weapon I use, regardless if it's MLas, LLas, or ERLLas...or the occasional pulse.

Edited by durandal, 05 May 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Perhaps you would like to try playing the game at 200 ms + ping and see if your lasers still work exactly the same...

[A banana in the tailpipe]

"Point Blank" still has some major (aka wonky) clipping issues in MWO. Besides the stuttering and teleports, I've shot right through people before hitting just the rear CT when facing their front.

[Davers]

Lower your mouse sensitivity. It will help you keep your lasers on target.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Perhaps you would like to try playing the game at 200 ms + ping and see if your lasers still work exactly the same...

That's not the games fault frankly. They cannot optimize it for every variation of latency.

Not really the issue though. You spread your damage quite a bit and whenever the beam is off of the target, some of that 9pts of damage is not being applied at all.

Gotta keep the beams on the target for the full duration to do the max damage and you've got to adjust to the targets movement to keep your beams on the same panels successfully. You painted him pretty broadly. I use LL or ML on every build (except for my one pure-meta Mech) and see this from people all of the time.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Davers, on 05 May 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Lower your mouse sensitivity. It will help you keep your lasers on target.

I prefer a few rounds of surgeon simulartor before MWO. You'll get all your rage out and have a steady hand by drop time!

[Davers]

lockwoodx, on 05 May 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I prefer a few rounds of surgeon simulartor before MWO. You'll get all your rage out and have a steady hand by drop time!

I prefer Goat Simulator as it prepares me for the utter chaos of pug drops.

[KharnZor]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Perhaps you would like to try playing the game at 200 ms + ping and see if your lasers still work exactly the same...

i do and they do

[Durandal]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Perhaps you would like to try playing the game at 200 ms + ping and see if your lasers still work exactly the same...

Your statement doesn't really apply logically to the situation, since your target is so close (and not warping appreciably) that latency issues were unlikely to be your problem. By assuming that, you ignore what people are telling you about damage transference, as well as what I mentioned about your hard points not being able to pinpoint accuracy at close range. That's before even mentioning, yet again, that your lasers don't stay centered, which means you're spreading that damage around, and outright wasting some of it.

Lukoi, on 05 May 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Not really the issue though. You spread your damage quite a bit and whenever the beam is off of the target, some of that 9pts of damage is not being applied at all.

Gotta keep the beams on the target for the full duration to do the max damage and you've got to adjust to the targets movement to keep your beams on the same panels successfully. You painted him pretty broadly. I use LL or ML on every build (except for my one pure-meta Mech) and see this from people all of the time.

Lukoi hit the nail on the head. As an example, here's a video of a Jenner pilot (p33p3rs) tearing it up with lasers. While the differences between a Jenner and Atlas are huge, pay attention to the spread of his lasers, and how he tries to carefully keep them centered on a specific point whenever he can: http://www.twitch.tv/p33p3rs/c/3684164

That's the difference between a kill, and a high damage rating with no kill/assist attached in many cases. An Atlas will always have the "fun" of close up enemies screwing up their pinpoint damage from torso hardpoints, but practicing control so you stop doing the "laser sweep" is a big part of using those weapons successfully.

[Jun Watarase]

Lukoi, on 05 May 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

That's not the games fault frankly. They cannot optimize it for every variation of latency.

Not really the issue though. You spread your damage quite a bit and whenever the beam is off of the target, some of that 9pts of damage is not being applied at all.

Gotta keep the beams on the target for the full duration to do the max damage and you've got to adjust to the targets movement to keep your beams on the same panels successfully. You painted him pretty broadly. I use LL or ML on every build (except for my one pure-meta Mech) and see this from people all of the time.

Yea actually they can. You should have played EA MPBT 3025, even if you had 300+ ping you were on the exact same playing field as people who had sub 100 ping.

I didnt spread damage that much actually. Maybe its because the youtube vid isnt as large as the one on my HDD (seriously why? The youtube one is 854x507 px large, and thats the large player size!), but at the end i can see the jagermech is still on yellow armor everywhere except for the CT and the destroyed LT. If i was spreading a lot, they would at least be orange.

Quote

Your statement doesn't really apply logically to the situation

You claim you have no issues with lasers, but you obviously dont have anywhere near the same ping as i do. Its pretty unfair to claim that everything is ok when you have a huge advantage as it is. Try playing MWO through a proxy or VPN to simulate high ping and let me know if lasers still work exactly the same...i am almost 100% sure you will find things very different.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

http://www.twitch.tv/p33p3rs/c/3684164

Did a quick view, and he actually spreads damage way more than i did. Look at when he shoots the blackjack at 5:37 for example, then at 5:58 when he shoots the battlemaster. But he had the notable advantage of being in a jenner with nobody shooting him. Atlas = permanently blinded by weapons fire (hooray for CT cockpits)

I do notice that my lasers werent always concentrating on the same spot since the arms obviously move faster than the torso does, and he's in a jenner where the weapons are all arm mounted so he doesnt have that problem...i wonder if it might be a good idea to try using arm lock on when in a mech with both torso and arm mounted weapons...

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 06:06 PM.

[Durandal]

Jun Watarase, on 05 May 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

I didnt spread damage that much actually. Maybe its because the youtube vid isnt as large as the one on my HDD (seriously why? The youtube one is 854x507 px large, and thats the large player size!), but at the end i can see the jagermech is still on yellow armor everywhere except for the CT and the destroyed LT. If i was spreading a lot, they would at least be orange.

You claim you have no issues with lasers, but you obviously dont have anywhere near the same ping as i do. Its pretty unfair to claim that everything is ok when you have a huge advantage as it is. Try playing MWO through a proxy or VPN to simulate high ping and let me know if lasers still work exactly the same...i am almost 100% sure you will find things very different.

Watching your video (again) in full screen on Youtube itself, let's break this down:

Shot 1: Arms hit right and center torso while CT laser hits left torso. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg for armor damage.
Shot 2: Same targets, arm lasers hit RT/CT, CT laser hits LT and LLeg. Paperdoll shows a flash on left arm armor as well that may be damage from another player.
Shot 3: All over. Hits both arms and all 3 torsos, paperdoll shows flashes in all areas.
Shot 4: Harder to see thanks to his guns firing, but it clearly starts on CT and jerks over to LT. Paperdoll shows flashes on all three torsos and left leg (probably from him running into you).
Shot 5: Most accurate shot, stays almost 100% centered on LT, destroys it along with left arm.
Shot 6: All over again, starts at RT, moves to CT and LT, then back towards RT.
Shot 7: Arms stay closer to CT, but CT laser hits the RT and RArm instead.
Shot 8: CT laser aimed way above his head, hits empty air. Arm lasers hit mainly CT/LT area.
Shot 9: Arm/CT lasers start on CT for a split second, then jerk past RT/RArm and end up in empty air, hitting the ground.

It's easy to see if you pause and play the video in fullscreen. You are not consistently hitting just one spot of the mech, and you are not consistently hitting the same spot with all three lasers. Your assumption that the areas you're hitting would "have to be orange" is mistaken...you're not hitting any of them long enough to peel away that much armor. While latency could have an effect on some of the first few shots before he closes to point blank range (hence the arm damage on the first couple shots), it doesn't explain the accuracy at close range. Frame by frame, however, the only time your full LLas damage is centered on one spot was shot 5...every other shot, it is spread around the mech.

[Khobai]

again... this video just illustrates how terrible spread damage is compared to pinpoint.

had you been using ppcs that jagermech wouldve been dead in 4-5 shots.

[Jun Watarase]

Theres of course a bit of spread but not to the point you are suggesting. Like i said, even if 25% of the damage had gone elsewhere, it still would have been enough to kill his CT, which didnt happen at all. And since his legs/arms remained on yellow, we know for a fact that not much damage went there (plus halfway into the video someone else starts shooting the jagermech, which makes the paper doll inaccurate).

I wonder if its possible the paper doll shows the actual view of where the damage is being applied though, rather than what you see on your screen. I know for a fact that i cant headshot AFK mechs at all, because most of the damage will go to the CT instead of the cockpit for some reason, and i can see that happening on the paperdoll, despite my screen showing everything hitting the cockpit.

And if i had been using PPCs, i would have been stuck with zero damage once he closed to within 90 meters and stayed there.

But its certaintly true that PPCs overall feel much more consistent for me, along with ballistics.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 May 2014 - 06:16 PM.