52 replies to this topic

[Pygar]

So I heard a rumor that last night's missile "nerf" was actually intended for the Clans and not for IS mechs.

Seriously PGI, just stop. You are nerfing a weapon system that isn't even very good in the first place, on a product that is making people angry because they don't want the watered down version, to appease a bunch of people who don't even know what the Clans are in the first place, people who have the game boiled down to the point that less than 1/4 of the mechs and weapons in the game even matter to them, and people who are going to complain anyways regardless of how big or small of an advantage Clan players might have.

So stop it...Just stop. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't at this point anyways-You might as well just release them at full power, because people are going to complain either way- you could at least make the people who are actual Clan fans happy.

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[oldradagast]

Basically.

At best, they don't know what they are doing since they somehow confused Clan missiles with IS missiles AND pushed that code out the door without anyone noticing. That's bad from a QA perspective... but they also fail on a design perspective because missiles as they are now post-patch are simply useless. If this is a preview of Clan missiles, they will be unusable paperweights.

[Pygar]

Yeah, they are worried about Clan LRMs because they weigh half as much as IS ones. But maybe instead of nerfing Clan LRMs into the dirt, they should leave them alone and we'll *gasp* actually see LRMs become viable instead of "tournament" games being an AC/20 zerg rush?

[Deathlike]

"Damned if you do and damned if you don't" has the assertion that PGI hasn't been delivering stuff that is "up to par".

If PGI has been "getting stuff right the first time", the original statement would hardly need to apply.

[-Natural Selection-]

If that is a display of how clan lrms will perform, BRING UM ON! My Ember felt like it was Irish on St Pats day with a get out of jail free card.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Dozier, on 21 May 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

If that is a display of how clan lrms will perform, BRING UM ON! My Ember felt like it was Irish on St Pats day with a get out of jail free card.

Many Gold Timber Wolves died to bring you this information.

[Pygar]

Deathlike, on 21 May 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

"Damned if you do and damned if you don't" has the assertion that PGI hasn't been delivering stuff that is "up to par".

If PGI has been "getting stuff right the first time", the original statement would hardly need to apply.

No, it's because the Clans were not balanced in their original form, and because now PGI is stuck with them. X amount of MWO players don't think they should be balanced, and X amount of MWO players are going to complain if they come out with any advantages at all.

[Deathlike]

Pygar, on 21 May 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

No, it's because the Clans were not balanced in their original form, and because now PGI is stuck with them. X amount of MWO players don't think they should be balanced, and X amount of MWO players are going to complain if they come out with any advantages at all.

Personally, they have to balance them correctly... either keep them OP, but "limit" their numbers (or treat them differently somehow MM-wise) or "nerf" them in such a way that they are "a weapons mod" that don't dramatically break things in the process.

It depends how much you care about balancing the game. Given Paul's track record, I would like to laugh at pulse lasers some more.

[Hillslam]

Been in BT since it was released in ziplock baggies. Before most of you were born.

Nerfing the clans is the one thing PGI is doing right in a 1-customer-per-mech title.

If this were a top down title where everyone controlled a lance or company of mechs then fine make one set of units more powerful then the other and balance by numbers.

but when every paying customer is sitting in one and just one mech, and the ONLY thing they get to do is shoot other paying customers sitting in other mechs, then, well, whenever I hear some Clanner bleating about how they're not going to get uber gear I say:
"clan mechs for everyone!"

"mix tech everywhere"

because F**K you if you think I'm going to pay to play against boss enemies in ANYTHING but a PVE environment.

PVP ? N.O.P.E.

Grow your larping epeen elsewhere. How about you earn your wins? shoot straight, drive right, earn it.

whining advantage seeking mouth breathers......

[Xoxim SC]

Us clans are gonna get owned at launch. Lasers be doing 1 damage, missiles doing 1 damage, 50+ armor translate to 1 armor. Oooo lord have mercy on us.

[Roland]

To have real clans, you need two things:
1) You need to have some sort of actual CW, to put the clans into context within the greater universe. Clan technology must be paired with clan units... Which means that you can't simply fight for any unit and still deploy clan tech.
2) You need a real battlevalue system, that accurately reflects the difference in utility between mechs.

We have neither of these.

The clans, as they exist in PGI's mind, are simply new robots to sell to fools who have more money than brains. There is none of the actual lore that made the clans interesting in battletech. There is none of the drama associated with an invasion of genetically modified super-soldiers with lost technology from a prior age. There isn't even anything for the clans to invade, since we have no actual Inner Sphere. There are no houses. There are no mercenary units. There is nothing.

Without any of the context for clans to exist within, they are just new looking robots, with improved weapons... And since there is no way to fight for a clan vs. fighting for the IS, and no notion of battlevalue, there is no way to really balance the clans in a way that even approaches how they were intended to exist within battltech.

This leaves PGI with the task of trying to not only balance a whole new set of technology which was inherently designed to NOT be balanced, but adds in the problem of basically coming up with an entirely new way for that technology to work, since they can't use battletech as a basis.

Paul couldn't even balance the IS technology against ITSELF. Does anyone honestly believe that he's up to the task of somehow balancing the clan technology too? If you can't balance 50 weapons, then you sure as hell can't balance 100.

[Pygar]

Hillslam, on 21 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Been in BT since it was released in ziplock baggies. Before most of you were born.

Nerfing the clans is the one thing PGI is doing right in a 1-customer-per-mech title.

If this were a top down title where everyone controlled a lance or company of mechs then fine make one set of units more powerful then the other and balance by numbers.

but when every paying customer is sitting in one and just one mech, and the ONLY thing they get to do is shoot other paying customers sitting in other mechs, then, well, whenever I hear some Clanner bleating about how they're not going to get uber gear I say:
"clan mechs for everyone!"

"mix tech everywhere"

because F**K you if you think I'm going to pay to play against boss enemies in ANYTHING but a PVE environment.

PVP ? N.O.P.E.

Grow your larping epeen elsewhere. How about you earn your wins? shoot straight, drive right, earn it.

whining advantage seeking mouth breathers......

Yeah well, on the converse Clan mechs could come out so weak that they won't change anything for the game, except just be yet another thing for people to complain about.

In this particular case, I am talking about LRMs especially... there are a lot of players who are going to do the exact same thing regardless of whether you shoot 20LRMs at time at them or shoot 40. There were 0 LRMs fired in this weeks tournament matches...because that end of the MWO pilot spectrum sees them as worthless- but PGI needs to nerf them on Clan mechs?

I get the idea that they need to have some kind of balancing done, because having them come into the game and make all of the current mechs obsolete is bad.... but how far is too far? And how bad would it actually be to take the current meta and flip it over on it's ear? (I played a bunch of 12 mans last night to escape the MM problems...everybody in that "meta" flies the exact same thing and it's boring.)

What I see happening right now is PGI nerfing them to a point that they will make the people who really want to see them in game sick to their stomach to actually play them... and at the same time, the people who are going to complain about "balance" issues are going to complain regardless...look at the people who were "alarmed" to see how many tubes yesterdays Hero Trebuchet has, like having that many missiles even matters in the current state of the game.

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Hillslam, on 21 May 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Been in BT since it was released in ziplock baggies. Before most of you were born.

Nerfing the clans is the one thing PGI is doing right in a 1-customer-per-mech title.

If this were a top down title where everyone controlled a lance or company of mechs then fine make one set of units more powerful then the other and balance by numbers.

but when every paying customer is sitting in one and just one mech, and the ONLY thing they get to do is shoot other paying customers sitting in other mechs, then, well, whenever I hear some Clanner bleating about how they're not going to get uber gear I say:
"clan mechs for everyone!"

"mix tech everywhere"

because F**K you if you think I'm going to pay to play against boss enemies in ANYTHING but a PVE environment.

PVP ? N.O.P.E.

Grow your larping epeen elsewhere. How about you earn your wins? shoot straight, drive right, earn it.

whining advantage seeking mouth breathers......

Just would like to point out that you are on a team, only shooting an enemy isn't the entire game. Odd teams with an advantage to the side with less numbers could work.

[Mcgral18]

Pygar, on 21 May 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Yeah, they are worried about Clan LRMs because they weigh half as much as IS ones. But maybe instead of nerfing Clan LRMs into the dirt, they should leave them alone and we'll *gasp* actually see LRMs become viable instead of "tournament" games being an AC/20 zerg rush?

Just remember that the current damage decrease is based on max range, while the cLRMs will have a proper min range before the damage drop off starts.

At least, I hope that's the plan.

[topgun505]

While I play the TT considerably I don't know all of the finer points of clan ethics for combat (aside from zel).

But I do know they hold honor in the highest regard (most of the time).

Possible suggestion. Leave LRMs as-is with one exception. They can only be used in direct fire mode, no indirect as that would be 'dishonorable'.

Like I said, not sure that fits with the previous lore but it would potentially be a counter balance. And you could maybe reduce the minimum range on them some (though I wouldn't eliminate it, despite the lore on their ranges).

Deathlike, on 21 May 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Personally, they have to balance them correctly... either keep them OP, but "limit" their numbers (or treat them differently somehow MM-wise) or "nerf" them in such a way that they are "a weapons mod" that don't dramatically break things in the process.

It depends how much you care about balancing the game. Given Paul's track record, I would like to laugh at pulse lasers some more.

[Pygar]

Mcgral18, on 21 May 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Just remember that the current damage decrease is based on max range, while the cLRMs will have a proper min range before the damage drop off starts.

At least, I hope that's the plan.

Right, but what I am saying is why nerf a weapon system that actually needs the buff it's getting from the Clans to possibly be viable? I don't even know if the reduced tonnage and reduced minimum range/reverse falloff thing is even enough to really change how people feel about LRMs in general... on the other hand, from what I am seeing in the upcoming release, Clan mechs might need those LRMs to be better in order to help make up for the "global" nerfs to engines and armor amounts the clans are getting.

[Fishhawk]

Roland, on 21 May 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

To have real clans, you need two things:
1) You need to have some sort of actual CW, to put the clans into context within the greater universe. Clan technology must be paired with clan units... Which means that you can't simply fight for any unit and still deploy clan tech.
2) You need a real battlevalue system, that accurately reflects the difference in utility between mechs.

We have neither of these.

The clans, as they exist in PGI's mind, are simply new robots to sell to fools who have more money than brains. There is none of the actual lore that made the clans interesting in battletech. There is none of the drama associated with an invasion of genetically modified super-soldiers with lost technology from a prior age. There isn't even anything for the clans to invade, since we have no actual Inner Sphere. There are no houses. There are no mercenary units. There is nothing.

Without any of the context for clans to exist within, they are just new looking robots, with improved weapons... And since there is no way to fight for a clan vs. fighting for the IS, and no notion of battlevalue, there is no way to really balance the clans in a way that even approaches how they were intended to exist within battltech.

This leaves PGI with the task of trying to not only balance a whole new set of technology which was inherently designed to NOT be balanced, but adds in the problem of basically coming up with an entirely new way for that technology to work, since they can't use battletech as a basis.

Paul couldn't even balance the IS technology against ITSELF. Does anyone honestly believe that he's up to the task of somehow balancing the clan technology too? If you can't balance 50 weapons, then you sure as hell can't balance 100.

Eloquently said! Unfortunately I was only able to "Like" this once.

[Artgathan]

Pygar, on 21 May 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

You might as well just release them at full power, because people are going to complain either way- you could at least make the people who are actual Clan fans happy.

I sense a clan package owner in our midst...

That said, if the clans were released at full power I believe MW:O would turn into a Ghost Town overnight, only occupied by those who bought clan packages until clan mechs became available for C-Bills.

Even then, I'd stop playing. OP Clan tech makes for a bad game.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

There are two ways PGI can balance the clans: numbers, or nerfs. They were broken when they were introduced, deliberately so, and they've been broken in every implementation that has come since. PGI's problem is that too many people think Clans when they think Mechwarrior, and not having Mad Cats and Daishis available is a recipe for financial disaster.

PGI has stated that they don't think balance by numbers is viable. I cannot recall if it was an implementation issue or a balance issue (I think it was a matter of balance), but either way 10v12 or 5v8 or whatever was adjudged as being unworkable.

Balance by nerfs is easy to do, comparatively speaking. Nerfs could be straight-up number juggling (lowering damage, increasing heat, reducing rate of fire, etc.), or they could be mechanical changes (damage fall-off for cLRMs, burst-fire for cUACs, etc.). PGI is probably going to be doing some of each.

As for cLRMs specifically, they are broken as all getout. Assuming their range gets bumped to match LRMs, cLRMs will be 1.1 damage/missile 0m-1km death volleys. At half the weight of the equivalent LRM launcher, you can either cram double the missiles into the same mass, or you can bring along a whole lot of extra backup guns and ammo.

Damage fall-off doesn't make sense from a flavor standpoint, but it's an effective way to give cLRMs a no-minimum-range upgrade without making the cLRM20 essentially a SSRM10 with a 1km max range. Personally I don't like it, but it seems like it ought to work (though it won't be sufficient to make cLRMs and LRMs anywhere near similar value per tonnage).

I'd like to see cLRM max range be reduced by 180m and that they have neither a range minimum nor damage fall-off. Instead, they should have a very flat trajectory (making indirect fire difficult) and they should spread very quickly on launch and only start to group again around 200m away from the launch point. Use missile spread instead of damage fall-off to mitigate the crazy with no-minimum cLRMs.

If that's not enough, make them blow up like the Gauss does. They do load armed missiles after all, unlike LRMs which don't arm until they hit that 180m mark.

[Pygar]

Artgathan, on 21 May 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I sense a clan package owner in our midst...

That said, if the clans were released at full power I believe MW:O would turn into a Ghost Town overnight, only occupied by those who bought clan packages until clan mechs became available for C-Bills.

Even then, I'd stop playing. OP Clan tech makes for a bad game.

A game where 90 something percent of your choices for mechs and gear are irrelevant because of Cataphract 3D is a similarly bad game. If that "meta" got changed or even just outright taken over by the Clans it wouldn't really shock me...it will be much more shocking to me if the Clans can't change the "meta" because they are nerfed completely to death.

To be perfectly frank on whether or not I own a Clan pack...I want one and am close to getting one- last nights "patch day" hilarity (meh it happens, used to it this many years into playing online games) forcing me to play 12 mans has me wondering if I should buy them or not. (my little view of what 12 mans look like right now was eye opening...and very disappointing.)

Edited by Pygar, 21 May 2014 - 10:06 AM.