45 replies to this topic

[General Pete]

LoPanShui, on 23 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

No more will Bondsman Betty incessantly annoy you with warnings of incoming outdated freebirth technology.

Hee hee! I like that! Bondsman Betty.

[StalaggtIKE]

Magitek, on 23 May 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

I want to say, Clanners would never 'hide' from battle. It's dishonorable.

ECM didn't hide your from the battlefield either, it simply leveled the playing field.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 May 2014 - 04:31 AM.

[Grimmrog]

General Pete, on 28 May 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

Hee hee! I like that! Bondsmanb*tch Betty.

FTFY

wait "b i t c h" is censored, but bitching betty won't o.O

Edited by Grimmrog, 28 May 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Sennin]

The devs are obviously taking a "baby steps" approach to the Clans. Clan mechs can pack on insane amounts of usable firepower but many are inherently frail, having low armor values or inflated surface areas that will most likely translate into large hit boxes. Players on both sides are going to cry foul from the get go and adding ECM to the mix would only make initial balancing that much more complicated.

[J0anna]

Russ has said that there will be torso's and arms from other variants, with that in mind, if we get the Kit Fox C Right Arm then that will be our default ECM mech (expect sniper Kit Foxes much like the sniper ravens and cicadas). Lets see Primary left arm (two energy), "C" right arm (AMS, BAP, ECM and Tag in TT right arm) - thus 3 energy hard points available with ECM - with 16 tons of pod space, we should be able to overcome our weak armor and minimum heat sinks (10 doubles).

The Mist Lynx (which I suspect will be our first added light) and the Hellbringer should both bring ECM to the table when they are released.

[Pariah Devalis]

Moenrg, on 28 May 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Russ has said that there will be torso's and arms from other variants, with that in mind, if we get the Kit Fox C Right Arm then that will be our default ECM mech (expect sniper Kit Foxes much like the sniper ravens and cicadas). Lets see Primary left arm (two energy), "C" right arm (AMS, BAP, ECM and Tag in TT right arm) - thus 3 energy hard points available with ECM - with 16 tons of pod space, we should be able to overcome our weak armor and minimum heat sinks (10 doubles).

The Mist Lynx (which I suspect will be our first added light) and the Hellbringer should both bring ECM to the table when they are released.

I am personally hoping for C right arm, S body, resulting in: (Almost) Maxed armor, ERPPC, ECM, 4 JJ, SSRM6, 1 ton of ammo, and an ERMLas. Or downgrade the SSRM to a 4 and add a second ERMLas. Either way, the mech should be solid for a range of activities. Just not actually scouting.

If the jump jet count cannot be directly reduced from 6, popping the side torsos out of the Kit Fox S for another variant's side torsos will have the same effect as it has 2 JJ per leg and 1 per side torso in the S config.

Spoiler

Uller (Kit Fox) Splinter
30 tons


Engine: 180 XL
Heat Sinks: 11 [22]
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 192/210 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------------------
Center Torso 32
Center Torso (rear) 8
Right Torso 20
Right Torso (rear) 8
Left Torso 20
Left Torso (rear) 8
Right Arm 20
Left Arm 20
Right Leg 20
Left Leg 20

Weapon Loc Heat
----------------------------------------
ER PPC RA 15
ER Medium Laser RA 5
ER Medium Laser LA 5
Streak SRM 4 LA 3

Ammo Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Streak SRM Ammo LA 1 Ton

Equipment Loc
----------------------------------
ECM Suite RA

Though this is 0.5 tons short on armor, on the legs. Dropping one Jump Jet can solve that problem easily enough, however, and you wind up with 3 jump jets and maxed armor.

Heat Sim: http://keikun17.gith...tc=1&engine=180

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 28 May 2014 - 07:05 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Edward Mattlov, on 27 May 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Neg, it must be the Timber Wolf "Pryde" variant. Why do you think PGI added the Timber Wolf Alt-S? So that they could make a hero version of the "Pryde" variant without people crying "pay to win".

But with the Timber Wolf S we have no need for the "Pryde".

[Sennin]

Last I checked, you can't change the stock armor values on an Omnimech or it ceases to being an Omni. From what I have seen, you will be stuck with the original 152/210 armor unless the devs break from the standard rule set. It could happen but I personally don't want that change.

Regardless, the Uller was always a horribly designed light 'Mech. Someone thought it was an awesome idea to slap a gauss rifle on a light 'Mech and sacrifice almost 30% of it's armor in the process when all it took was an ERPPC to accomplish the same, if not better, results..

The only way I consistently found to offset it's slow speed and crappy armor was to equip it with weaponry that had extreme ranges and/or jump jets. In the tabletop I used two ER Large Lasers, a targeting computer, 13 DHS, and 6 jump jets to stay away from the enemy and snipe until they were dead.

[CyclonerM]

Nathan K, on 28 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

But with the Timber Wolf S we have no need for the "Pryde".

And also little need for the other configurations See why they should have not chosen the S?

Sennin, on 28 May 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Last I checked, you can't change the stock armor values on an Omnimech or it ceases to being an Omni. From what I have seen, you will be stuck with the original 152/210 armor unless the devs break from the standard rule set. It could happen but I personally don't want that change.

Regardless, the Uller was always a horribly designed light 'Mech. Someone thought it was an awesome idea to slap a gauss rifle on a light 'Mech and sacrifice almost 30% of it's armor in the process when all it took was an ERPPC to accomplish the same, if not better, results..

The only way I consistently found to offset it's slow speed and crappy armor was to equip it with weaponry that had extreme ranges and/or jump jets. In the tabletop I used two ER Large Lasers, a targeting computer, 13 DHS, and 6 jump jets to stay away from the enemy and snipe until they were dead.

They said they will allow us to customize armor values, so moot point.

[Sennin]

I must have missed that conversation, where is the official reference, you got a link to it?

[CyclonerM]

Sennin, on 28 May 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I must have missed that conversation, where is the official reference, you got a link to it?

Not sure, i think it was the latest Clan tech Command Chair update and a post on Twitter.

[Pariah Devalis]

It was also further clarified on a following NGNG podcast as well.

[Sennin]

Well that totally defeats the purpose of pod space and will be horribly abused to mount even more rediculous tonnage of weaponry/equipment.

Player A: "I'm sorry, did I hear you just say you mounted 6 ERPPC's, 2 UAC/2's, and an LRM-10 on your Dire Wolf?"
Player B: "I did!"

Player A: "Are you high?"
Player B: "Pass me the cheeto's"

Obviously, I am making a fun exaggeration but you know someone is going to make that rediuclous glass cannon or horribly abusive meta build that they would not have been able to without adjusting armor values. The latter of the two is going to cause immeasurable rage.

[Ben Morgan]

If I am allowed to interrupt here:
As far as I remember, the rule for armor values was:
You have a fixed amount of armor that NEEDS to be installed on your mech (152/210 for example) but you are ALLOWED to increase it to 210/210. You don't have to, but you can (and let's be honest, you will do it).

[Jaroth Corbett]

RedEagle86, on 23 May 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

So this is a question I've been thinking about for a while: Isn't Clan ECM 'Omni-Equipment'? Meaning that any Onmi-Mech can equip it? Additionally, the Guardian ECM that the IS have now (in MWO), isn't that more like the Clan ECM (I think it's called Angel ECM) than what it's supposed to be?

Lore people and holders of TT books, please enlighten me!

Classic Battletetch - Tactical Operations Pg.279

[Pariah Devalis]

Sennin, on 29 May 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Well that totally defeats the purpose of pod space and will be horribly abused to mount even more rediculous tonnage of weaponry/equipment.

Player A: "I'm sorry, did I hear you just say you mounted 6 ERPPC's, 2 UAC/2's, and an LRM-10 on your Dire Wolf?"
Player B: "I did!"

Player A: "Are you high?"
Player B: "Pass me the cheeto's"

Obviously, I am making a fun exaggeration but you know someone is going to make that rediuclous glass cannon or horribly abusive meta build that they would not have been able to without adjusting armor values. The latter of the two is going to cause immeasurable rage.

Just because you can put 6 LRM20 on a Catapult does not make it a good idea. The way to do it is to drop the engine down and strip all the armor off. I have seen it in game. Just because you can slap three gauss rifles on an IM does not make it a good idea either.

The only way you free up appreciably significant room on an Omnimech is to cut its armor in half. Especially since many use Ferro Fibrous. A Cataphract has, on average, about 40 tons to tinker with after armor and engine, but before weapons, equipment, and heatsinks, in a typical customized mech. The Summoner only has around 23 tons, and then you need to devote a ton to fixing its armor, so really only around 22. Half the tonnage available for a comparable IS mech. Even factoring in 5 tons for the totally hardwired and non-removable jump jets, you would still have around 35 tons to work with in the CTF-3D. Clan weapons are about 20% lighter (except missiles, which are 50% lighter), and only the energy weapons hit harder. 20%=|=40%-50%, so you already start off with a firepower disadvantage unless you take full use of Clan missiles and Clan energy weapons. Kinda leaves Clan ballistics a bit high and dry, here.

Even stripping half the armor off a mech will only save you 5 or 6 tons, but it would not be worth it. Not for the hit to survivability.

It is actually the engine SIZE that IS mechs use to free up so much tonnage. Clan mechs have huge engines that weigh just as much as IS XL engines, but with no option to reduce their size. The Clan mechs with gobs of disproportionately huge firepower are only the ones that move only about as fast as IS mechs. IE: Dire Wolf, Nova Cat, Night Gyr. The rest are extremely short on actual tonnage to mount things.

So, no, it does not undermine the omni-system's "balance." The omni-system, on paper compared to customized IS mechs, is of dubious balance as is, and not in the Clan favor. We need to see how it plays out, in game, and the loadouts and tactics that pilots adopt, before we can say it can be abused, because right now that is looking pretty unlikely.

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 May 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

Classic Battletetch - Tactical Operations Pg.279

Well, that would be nice if ECM functioned like that for SSRM in game. :\ Disable the lock and force it back into dumbfire.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 May 2014 - 04:38 AM.

[Zerberus]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 May 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Just because you can put 6 LRM20 on a Catapult does not make it a good idea. The way to do it is to drop the engine down and strip all the armor off. I have seen it in game.

No, you havent, because you can`t get more than 3xLRM15 into the arms of any catapult in TT, MWx, or MWO.. The LRM90 ROFLPult is the most you can mount on any cat and only works specifically on the A1. You can mount 20/15/10 instead and waste a ton, but youre not gettting more than 45 missiles into either arm.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0398d5b489c220a

Still not a good idea, though, and I agree with the rest of your post

Edited by Zerberus, 29 May 2014 - 05:25 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Eh? Maybe you are right, then! Must have been Hexa-15. Only seen one once. I was in a Spider. It was not a good day for him. My bad. XD Still, not a viable build due to the sacrifices that had to be made.

[NeoCodex]

Sniper09121986, on 23 May 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Dishonourable is hiding behind hilltops and raining LRM fire. It is only by using ECM that true warriors may strive to force the Inner Sphere cowards out of hiding and into the glorious melee in the name of Khorne.

As much as I would want to agree on that, hiding under ECM and LRMing is just the most basic and effective warfare method that has been done for centuries. When you are out there, all it matters is that you stay alive and achieve victory. Try to do as much damage and take as less damage as possible, and there is no "honor" in warfare, not even by a long shot, every efficient method counts, and even the clans should know that.

Edited by NeoCodex, 29 May 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

NeoCodex, on 29 May 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

even the clans should know that.

THEY DO NOT!!111oneone They behave like honourable warriors and expect the same in return exactly because after so many generations they know no other way. And, come on, a game is a game, and a game needs to be played, there is more to it than just clicking the LRM/JJ-PPC button till the end of the round and showing everyone online that you did. Omnimechs are worth a shot for one reason, if no other, that many of them have ECM in this config or that. It will force the other side to crawl out and maybe, you know, actually fight.