145 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Jumpjets are only so dominating because non-JJ movement *sucks*. Ever since they put in the hill-climbing restrictions, mech mobility just hasn't been the same. Routes that used to be feasible are now flat-out impossible. So, the non-JJ mechs must funnel through routes that are predictable, especially when you have 12 sets of eyes, watching the map. And hills that you used to be able to peek over are now too steep to climb. Or, you can still climb it, but you climb super *sloooowly*, so it takes forever to get up and clear your weapons to shoot, giving the enemy plenty of time to hit you.

If you're on a map where JJ mobility is not as critical, I guess it's OK. But since you never know what map you'll drop on.... getting Canyon Network in a non-JJ-capable mech sucks.

The JJs are about much more than just poptarting. People need to stop focusing so obsessively on jump shooting. It just happens to be that they nerfed the ability to use cover vertically for non-JJ-capable mechs. So that leaves players using the next-best thing that lets them use cover vertically.

I really wish they'd re-do the hill-climbing mechanics.

[Sarlic]

By the way: adding shake is not enough. You need to disable weapons aswell. In the past you just post a sticker on your screen as a crosshair and then you can shoot during a shake effect and still hit the target.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 May 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

No need to disable weopons it would be an over reaction. You can do a comination of things. Like fixing SRMs and short range brawling in general. And work on the pin point damage a range problem. In other words balance brawling and sniping dont break jump jets

[Deathlike]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 24 May 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

AC2's used to be a very wicked counter to poptarters. You would shake them fast and hard all the way up and down. But they nerfed those into near uselessness. Sometimes i think just for that reason...

Ask Paul. I was never really threatened by the "AC2 meta" outside of making my own mistakes vs them.

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

just a quick question on meta to ponder on, when SRM's are fixed and and Cent 9-A's become meta once more, will u stop using SRM's and any of the many missile meds and post on the forums that they too are meta?

The Splatcat "meta" was far more entertaining than this current drivel.

Then again, Paul will have his preemptive strike on any SRM fixes and nerf them back to 1.5 damage per missile... needlessly.

[xe N on]

If my Shadowhawk 5M would be a hero with 30% more income, I only would play my SHD instead of my Dragon Slayer.

My VCT-DS runs AC10 + 2 PPC + XL 375 + 3 JJ
My SHD-5M runs 1xUAC5 + 2 PPC + XL280 + 1JJ

The SHD is much more effective in jump sniping then my DS. The SHD's JJ reload time is lower, even using a XL 375 on my DS my SHD is much much more agile and torso twisting is much more efficient. The only drawback is that the SHD runs slightly hotter.

I realy don't understand why the DS is so popular. In fact, I find it mediocre at best. It virtually only allows jump sniper builds because of his terribad hardpoints. However, beside pure walking speed (twist rate was nerfed) the highlander makes a better one.

Today I had a 1vs1 brawling with my SHD-2D2 (2 LL, 4xSSRMs) against a Victor. I won. Simply because I focused on his side torso, which is quite easy to hit from straight front. Do you know what killed me? A dual Gauss Jaegermech ...

[Lefteye Falconeer]

The very sad part is that PGI thinks they would lose more customers by nerfing poptarting once and for all instead of understanding they would GAIN customers.

As long as they don't understand that firing while jumping needs to be "severely" discouraged this game will keep stagnating with tons of unused/unusable non-jumping 'mechs and stale competitive play.

[Zolaz]

It is called P2W.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zolaz, on 25 May 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

It is called P2W.

folks on teh Intrawebz really need to learn what that term actually means.

[Joe Decker]

Shooting Weapons while jumping ? Keep that - it is Fun. It is not only Meta - it is absolutely needed for all Light Mechs out there. Cockpit shake while rising up ? No Problem with that. Adequate Leg damage when free falling ? We need that + a Jumpjet/Fall Damage overhaul. Overworking the Climb Penalties ? Absoluteley needed. Cannot be okey that my Assault Tank gets stuck on a Stone everytime he wants to move 10 meters backwards. AC2 Nerf ? Was not needed - with which Weapon shall we outrange AC5 + ERPPC Builds ? I think that was a huge Mistake they did, to lower the AC2 Range. In Fact the AC2 could have been buffed a little bit and would have still been okey. 2 Damage per SRM ? - that is okey. Don't nerf. Last Thing that would be needed : Slight Lockspeed Buff on LRM's. And finally : Please more big Maps like Tourmaline Desert or Alpine Peaks or even bigger than those.

Edited by Joe Decker, 25 May 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[xe N on]

Jump Sniper are counters for dakka-builds. Without efficient jump sniping 3UAC5 or 4 AC5 or 2xAC5 + 2xAC2 rule the battlefield. It's not better, because if under focus fire, dakka-builds tear you down much more faster.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joe Decker, on 25 May 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Shooting Weapons while jumping ? Keep that - it is Fun. It is not only Meta - it is absolutely needed for all Light Mechs out there. Cockpit shake while rising up ? No Problem with that. Adequate Leg damage when free falling ? We need that + a Jumpjet/Fall Damage overhaul. Overworking the Climb Penalties ? Absoluteley needed. Cannot be okey that my Assault Tank gets stuck on a Stone everytime he wants to move 10 meters backwards. AC2 Nerf ? Was not needed - with which Weapon shall we outrange AC5 + ERPPC Builds ? I think that was a huge Mistake they did, to lower the AC2 Range. In Fact the AC2 could have been buffed a little bit and would have still been okey. 2 Damage per SRM ? - that is okey. Don't nerf. Last Thing that would be needed : Slight Lockspeed Buff on LRM's. And finally : Please more big Maps like Tourmaline Desert or Alpine Peaks or even bigger than those.

xe N on, on 25 May 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Jump Sniper are counters for dakka-builds. Without efficient jump sniping 3UAC5 or 4 AC5 or 2xAC5 + 2xAC2 rule the battlefield. It's not better, because if under focus fire, dakka-builds tear you down much more faster.

hence my suggestion to keep it, yet tone down it's dominance, by raising the skill cap needing to use it consistently. Jumpsniping is indeed part of the big circle or Rock, Paper, Scissor that is need for the game to work, along with Brawling, LRMs and Wolf Packs.

It's just the reward/risk ratio needs to be tweaked back to where it doesn't so overtly favor one tactic (currently Jumpsniping) over the others. Part of that, of course, is effective LRMs to help suppress Poptarts. Another thing is to fix SRM reliability to increase brawling effectiveness, and the last step, in this particular puzzle, is to reduce JumpSniping EASE just a skosh. right now, as tactics go, it has the lowest skill cap of anything.

Effective Tactics and Weapons only become the dominant Meta when they are easy enough that the plebeian masses adopt them. Elseways, the Gauss would still be a huge part of the Meta.

[Zolaz]

Hey Russ says that weapons are balanced. He must love the jump meta. More than likely it has been that long since he logged into the game and play. Oh well, why expect a game developer to play the game that he talks about as being "marginally viable".

And yes, if you have a Hero mech that is the best mech in the game ... that is P2W. You know, since you can only buy the DS with real money. You may not know this, but you cant buy Hero mechs with C-bills.

You are welcome Bishop Steiner, always willing to show you the light.

[Viges]

I call them

[xe N on]

Zolaz, on 25 May 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

And yes, if you have a Hero mech that is the best mech in the game ... that is P2W. You know, since you can only buy the DS with real money. You may not know this, but you cant buy Hero mechs with C-bills.

Apperently PUG and Premade are different worlds. For PUGs I can say that a Dragon Slayer is not Pay to Win. In fact, I somehow lose (in terms of games, not kills) much more if I use my Dragon Slayer then in any other mech I own. It has the worst win/loss rate of all my mechs: 0,6 (K/D rate is 1.6)! Apperently, there is some hidden algorithm that put you always in the team meant to loose ... the name Victor seem to be a hoax.

My beloved SHD has a W/L of 1.1 and a K/D of 2. I know why I mostly play this machine ...

Edited by xe N on, 25 May 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Because it's the best mech in the game, by far.

[Zolaz]

Vassago Rain, on 25 May 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Because it's the best mech in the game, by far.

You are right, that hardly sounds like pay to win. The best mech in the game is a cash grab Hero mech. Hard to believe that PGI would do something like that. Oh well, I guess that makes it easier to decide if you want to buy Clan mechs or not.

With the current MM, you are pretty much guaranteed to lose half the time. If you dont then the boot of Paul descends on your neck to make absolutely certain that your W/L gets as close to equal. Never heard of that in a competitive sport before. You are way too good, we need to put some mouth breathers and Leroy Jenkinses on your team.

Yep, have to agree PGI is making the best marginally viable product on the market.

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 25 May 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Because it's the best mech in the game, by far.

What are you smoking? The highlander 733C is completely better than the victor at everything, even with 3 JJs on it you win:

Which mech has better speed? Dragonslayer

Which mech turns better? 733C

Which mech torso twists faster? 733C

Which mech has more arm movement? 733C

Which mech can carry 2xUAC5 instead of 2xAC5? 733C

Which mech has higher elevation of hardpoints? 733C

Which mech has more armor? 733C

Which mech carries more ammo? 733C

Which mech runs a cooler build? 733C

Which mech can jump snipe? Both, but 733C is better.

The ONLY advantage to the DS is flat out speed...but what do you need that for? You are jump sniping...

Additionally, the DS does not torso twist better than the Highlander unless you run >375XL engine. Which means you must run AC10 instead of 2xAC5 or 2xUAC5 to get similar torso twist performance, which gimps your DPS.

That means all things being equal, a DS cannot turn as well as a 733C ever, cannot move arms as well as a 733C ever, and can only twist faster with an engine so large it cannot carry the same optimum payload as the 733C can with the max engine installed.

Also, I would like to point out, in my highlander, I am never so slow @ 65 kph that I ever have problems...

So keep hanging onto your overnerfed DS because you are infatuated...however, do not spread nonsensical BS about the mech when reality is...it is a second class citizen for a jump sniper...you are simply too foolish to realize meta passed you by a long time ago, and you are sitting in last year's model that you overpaid for.

The 733C outclasses the mech completely...do not believe me? Check smurfys...look at the numbers...they come straight from the game, and they do not lie. The Victor has the same torso twist speed as the 100T Atlas.

DS is not P2W, instead it is P2Fail...buy the mech that outclasses it...HGN-733C. You want the build that does it? Here it is: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ae0c1bad339e72d

Victor is garbage...even for jump sniping...it has been a second class citizen for a long time now...maybe one day you "meta DS pilots" will wake up and realize I am still doing 700-800 damage a match in my 733C and killing you all in my "gimped" mech.

Edited by Gyrok, 25 May 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Jman5]

The design team needs to go back and nerf all medium, heavy, and assault jump jet classes to give it a longer, but slower lift off/ascent just like they did with the Highlander.

If you just nerf the dragon slayer that still leaves the Cataphract 3d, the shadowhawks and any other future jump sniping mech.

Make jump snipers take that extra second or two climbing high enough to get their shots off. It's worked wonders for balancing the highlander, I don't understand why they stopped there.

[FupDup]

There's way too many Dragon Slayers! Why are there so many Dragon Slayers? The brochure said there'd only be a few Dragon Slayers! This is a terrible metagame!

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 25 May 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

The design team needs to go back and nerf all medium, heavy, and assault jump jet classes to give it a longer, but slower lift off/ascent just like they did with the Highlander.

If you just nerf the dragon slayer that still leaves the Cataphract 3d, the shadowhawks and any other future jump sniping mech.

Make jump snipers take that extra second or two climbing high enough to get their shots off. It's worked wonders for balancing the highlander, I don't understand why they stopped there.

Actually, you just need 3 JJs now instead of the 1 you used to get away with...then it was 2...now you need 3 to liftoff like you used to be able to do...