145 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

YueFei, on 23 May 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

These guys aren't n00bs who circle-jerk around in the open so you can watch them and wait until they twist towards you. They're using cover as much as possible. They'll peek up over a hill exposing only the head, and if you happen to not be looking directly at them, they'll lift on their jets, get their shot off, and immediately twist while their shot is still in the air. If you *do* happen to be looking at them, they'll release jets and dive back behind cover. If you catch them in transit, they'll be fully-shielding as they move to the next piece of cover. Not to mention that with the snappy initial lift of jump jets, some shots you fire at their torso can end up hitting their leg.... but deliberately aiming at their legs can sometimes cause some of your shots to miss if you fire right as they jump.

Look at it this way: NBA players sometimes miss free-throws. And there's no one opposing them when they make that shot. Anyone can *say* they'll just shoot an opponent where it hurts. In practice it's much more difficult to execute than that. Defensive piloting is a real thing. Among top pilots, when they fight each other, it's rare for the fight to end with mechs cored/stripped and completely untouched anywhere else.

And what he doesn't get...as a YLW jock..... I had to learn long ago how to fake people into taking that shot. Start to twitch over like I'm taking the shot, jerk back immediately, eat enemy fire on left arm.... then jerk back in line and take my actual shot.

And I'm not even a top tier player. Just a joker who has survived in this shark filled swimming pool running non-meta builds on my own terms. But when those top tier guys show up, I know barring some serious misfortune, I am gonna have a LONG match, lol.

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

And what he doesn't get...as a YLW jock..... I had to learn long ago how to fake people into taking that shot. Start to twitch over like I'm taking the shot, jerk back immediately, eat enemy fire on left arm.... then jerk back in line and take my actual shot.

And I'm not even a top tier player. Just a joker who has survived in this shark filled swimming pool running non-meta builds on my own terms. But when those top tier guys show up, I know barring some serious misfortune, I am gonna have a LONG match, lol.

Yes! I forgot to mention that fake-out move.

For a couple weeks I ran nothing but my Centurions, the AL, the D, and the A. Looking for something different and exciting, I shoved XL engines into them, and actually put weaponry into that right arm. Sometimes I screwed up when trying to twist to take a shot on the left arm, twisting a little bit *too* far... and ate a 30+ damage alpha through the rear left shoulder and died instantly.

It was a refreshing way to play, since I knew I could die at any instant, but in exchange I had more firepower x speed than most Centurions did, filling all hardpoints. I never did get a YLW, but I know a lot of pilots right that thing with XL-engines, and I have friends who run them, and it does seem like a really exciting mech to play!

And like you said, the top pilots in this game have a complete skillset that makes them dangerous. They can drive non-meta mechs and still succeed against most players. It's just that when they're up against people who are as good as they are, they go for every advantage they can find. Put a top pilot in a meta mech, and put other skilled pilots on his wings, and like you said.... it can be brutal.

Myself, I'm a mediocre pilot. I can occasionally have brilliant games, like anyone else. A 1K damage match once in awhile. Every dog has his day. But against really good pilots? I've been two-shotted in my Jenner by the guys in the tournament enough to be humbled.

Hell I think Gman one-shotted my Jenner through the side-torso last night. I wasn't moving enough laterally, only probably a 30-degree lateral motion, and I was busy setting up and taking a shot on a Cicada. I should've broken off instead of taking that shot, and tried to juke his shot. Oh well!

Edited by YueFei, 23 May 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[Hot Kid]

I love the whole "poptarting is a l33t-skill"-bullshit....

Back to OP questions:

1. You see lots of heavys and assaults, because pgi doesn't care even a bit for the original lore of the game and they try to grab some money as long as some still play the game.

2. You see lots of DS because pgi is a "at-best-mediocre" game-developer (regarding talent and other ressources) who build a a fun little mechwarrior-like-shooter with lots of broken or not realised mechanics and without any sign of fixing it. You call it "meta", i call it imbalance.

I don't want to start about all the promises:
- Adavanced Warfare
- Fight for land/planets whatever
- Some kind of mechanics for knockdowns
- A better UI
- logic terrain
etc.

Instead we got: "Here you got a new map" or more often "here you got another mech, now give us money!"

So because they can't make a good, balanced game, we got a game open for exploits. And the DS right know seems like the king of poptarting.


End of story.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hot Kid, on 23 May 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

epeen posturing

when you learn the difference between poptarting and skilled jumpsniping, then your journey will finally begin, grasshopper.

But keep telling yourself those top tier guys are just there by fluke or by abusing a mechanic. It's a great way to ensure a life of mediocrity (and let's see...3, 2, 1 til the obligatory eppen duel challenge? Yawn....? Challange Gman or JaegerXII of you think it's BS and that you are gods's gift to MechWarrior. I already admitted I am middle of the pack or slightly above.).

But hey, people can rage the fine fight here on the forums, I suppose.

[Sarlic]

I find those teams a disgrace to MWO.

[Flaming oblivion]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

All weapons stacked in the RT/RA, more JJ efficient than a Highlander. Allows it to use a standard engine, and use the entire left side of the mech as a damage soak. Use armlock as needed for instant weapon convergence and you too can poptart like the High Rollers.

Got to admit, this tournament is doing wonders to remind me why I don't actually care anymore. Candy Crush is less repetitive than high level comp play theses days...and I don't even blame the high level players. PGI broke the bloody mechanics, they are just taking advantage of it.

The ironic thing is it scares the people that wan fun away from the game (casuals) , The hard-core competitive eventually get bored and leave, The funniest thing they are killing the diversity for a advantage they are forcing everyone in that ELO bracket into , So they are killing a game for a advantage in reality no one gets because everyone's using it LOL

[Bishop Steiner]

Flaming oblivion, on 23 May 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

The ironic thing is it scares the people that wan fun away from the game (casuals) , The hard-core competitive eventually get bored and leave, The funniest thing they are killing the diversity for a advantage they are forcing everyone in that ELO bracket into , So they are killing a game for a advantage in reality no one gets because everyone's using it LOL

never said it was healthy for the game, just that it was a fact. Comp scene and the overall health of a game is rather the razors edge. You need them for many reasons, but when it bleeds over, it does indeed hurt the game far more than the Compers would ever admit. Sadly, without the Comp crowd, things also don't get taken seriously, in the gaming world, and like it or not, they are still the best laboratory for what does or doesn't work, exploits, etc, because they distill it to the essence.

Sadly, PGI is pretty determined to NOT learn from the findings.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarlic, on 23 May 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

I find those teams a disgrace to MWO.

No.

PGI is the disgrace for allowing it to fester unchallenged for over a year. I dislike the Meta, and such, but comp is comp. While I don't enjoy it, there is a mindset that does. The problem is that there is one, single, all encompassingly superior tactic to the meta, and PGI has, if anything, made it worse with each attempt to curb and control it. Nerf after nerf that ignores the core issues, and instead punish builds and weapons more heavily when used in a non meta role. There will always be a meta. There will always be a weapon, a chassis, a tactic, which overall is "best". But most games don't allow it to become such a clear cut dominating one.

That is squarely on Paul, Russ and Bryan's shoulders.

You can't really blame the inmates when the asylum's masters are the one's allowing them to run amok.

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

No.

PGI is the disgrace for allowing it to fester unchallenged for over a year. I dislike the Meta, and such, but comp is comp. While I don't enjoy it, there is a mindset that does. The problem is that there is one, single, all encompassingly superior tactic to the meta, and PGI has, if anything, made it worse with each attempt to curb and control it. Nerf after nerf that ignores the core issues, and instead punish builds and weapons more heavily when used in a non meta role. There will always be a meta. There will always be a weapon, a chassis, a tactic, which overall is "best". But most games don't allow it to become such a clear cut dominating one.

That is squarely on Paul, Russ and Bryan's shoulders.

You can't really blame the inmates when the asylum's masters are the one's allowing them to run amok.

Absolutely agree.

Rock/Paper/Scissors is a simple example of a game with no dominant move. All 3 are valid moves, it depends on what move your opponent chooses.

Game balance is a goal to make multiple builds/tactics/choices valid. It's not healthy for a game when there is a single dominant tactic that can only be countered by using the same tactic and trying to execute it better.

The top players will still be the best players in the game, no matter how the meta evolves. Some players cry that the top players are currently only the best because of "crutches", but that's not true. No matter how the game gets balanced, those guys are still gonna beat most of the players in this game.

The key though is that a broad and healthy "meta-game" should feature a large variety of choices.

BTW, some of the best fighting game players tend to be very, very good at Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Edited by YueFei, 23 May 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[Ursh]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

No.

PGI is the disgrace for allowing it to fester unchallenged for over a year. I dislike the Meta, and such, but comp is comp. While I don't enjoy it, there is a mindset that does. The problem is that there is one, single, all encompassingly superior tactic to the meta, and PGI has, if anything, made it worse with each attempt to curb and control it. Nerf after nerf that ignores the core issues, and instead punish builds and weapons more heavily when used in a non meta role. There will always be a meta. There will always be a weapon, a chassis, a tactic, which overall is "best". But most games don't allow it to become such a clear cut dominating one.

That is squarely on Paul, Russ and Bryan's shoulders.

You can't really blame the inmates when the asylum's masters are the one's allowing them to run amok.

Right on man, couldn't have said it better.

Ghost heat was added to stop people from landing 40 point alphas with ppcs, particularly on certain builds, which was a insta convergence problem, not a total damage problem.
Gauss was nerfed to desync it with PPCs, thanks to the Cat 3D and various Highlanders.

PPCs and gauss became more difficult to use by normal players as a result. Oh, and then they included lasers in with the ghostheat, because people cried about 5-6 Llaser stalkers, despite those never ever being meta builds.

JumpJet shake- Did nothing except force the poptarts to add an extra jet or two to their mech and wait to fire on the way down. Insult to injury- Lights and mediums who drop out of the sky from max jump elevation damage their legs, but assaults doing the same thing suffer no damage. Helps jumpsnipers, disobeys all laws of physics.

[N E R E V A R]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Except.... you can't use your left torso to soak anymore then.

Most of us don't actually use standards in our ds especially for comp, speed is very important for out maneuvering the enemy in 12v12. All our victors run at 78kph.

[Zerberus]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

...
Got to admit, this tournament is doing wonders to remind me why I don't actually care anymore. ...

And Ironically, it hasn`t even started yet

[panicbutton]

I'd like to point out that there will always be a metagame as long as there are tryhard ******** like SJR, SwK, HoL, CSJ, 228th, HHoD, et al playing. The DS is just the flavor of the last month as the highlander got kicked in the teeth in terms of its jump-sniping capabilities. Even if jump sniping was out of the question, some other form of better-than-the-rest 'mech or combination of 'mechs will rear its ugly head and cast a shadow on the valley of solo queue. This tournament, like any other competitive game (like some mentioned earlier by people who are "done with pgi"), just showcases what currently works for these teams in terms of strategies. While some strategies may be more or less entertaining to watch, they are all designed to win. No one went into a tournament match thinking "hm, I wonder what the community really wants to see..." Those guys, myself included, play to win. Just take a big fat chill pill, clean your keyboard, grab a beer, and maybe start to plan out how you will criticize the next big thing after jump sniping is no longer "meta". Maybe you could throw up a forum post, start a reddit thread, threaten to quit the game, or go light dog poo on fire in front of PGI's office building (I do not advocate any criminal activity). Regardless of how boring it is to watch two teams camp it out with dragon slayers, cataphracts, shadowhawks, and a few lights, I'm just glad PGI put the damn tourney together. It lets people who might have an interest in doing something other than queue solo and cry know what's out there. At the very least, it removes 24 poptarts from the solo queue for a short time every few days. Wait for the matches to start... then... TO THE WANG!

[StillRadioactive]

Prezimonto, on 23 May 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

I've stopped caring about comp play in this game. At least in League there's some really diverse skill and tactics being applied team to team and season to season. This game's had one main tactic and build style for over a year at the high levels. Only the exact mech's used have changed, but the gameplay itself hasn't honestly been touched much.

Playing the smaller unit games really diversifies things. The MWO Ladder has 1v1, 2v2 and 4v4, which does have its fair share of PPC/AC5, but they don't completely dominate the way they do in 12v12.

http://mwoladder.enjin.com

You've got your poptart Dragon Slayers, yes... but you've also got brawling DDCs, hit-and-run Dragons, LRM/spotter combos, and skirmishing Griffins all putting up good records on the ladders. It's brought new life into the game for me.

[Primetimex]

Agree with Bishop Steiner, blame PGI, do not blame the top players - the top players simply are best at what they do and that is piloting mechs to the nth degree in MW:0, meta or no-meta.

I've had the opportunity in the past to play with and watch Proton. He is truly a master player in every respect. I've watched him play everything from spiders (lights), heavies, assaults and he tops the match charts almost all the time. Put him in a meta-mech and really watch him blow apart the opposition.

We can all learn a bit from watching the top players play, from situational awareness (very very important), maximising and making the most out of your mech to match your playstyle and taking advantage of weaknesses in enemy lines and where to aim for best effect.

Like Bishop said, raging continuously vs meta providing top players with crutches will keep you in mediocrity and will not improve your gameplay. When I see pugs time and time again refusing to push, lack situational awareness, and simply stand in one spot expecting things to go their way, do you seriously expect to win the match?

[StillRadioactive]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

Challange Gman or JaegerXII

FYI, my above comment about the ladder does include those extreme top-tier players. Gman is in the 1v1 ladder, as is Dankith, ciller, Eagle Falconhawk, TheMagician, Vas79, Rickrom, Demosthones, heimdelight, Grumpy... the list goes on and on and on, and it's just chock full of raw skill of the highest caliber.

The order is skewed at the moment, since it's only week 3 and standings were initially placed first-come-first-served, but soon it'll get sorted out.

I came late to the party, but I really do hope to have some matches against those top-tier guys as I climb the ladder, because I run exclusively anti-meta builds. I've compiled all the 1v1 videos that people have posted, so you can get a feel for the type of competition.

http://mwomercs.com/...ompetitive-1v1/

And I've run some pickup matches of 2v2 (not ranked) against Hann Solo and Grumpy from BSK. Hearing them say at the beginning of the match "Focus fire on Radio" is humbling, terrifying, and uplifting all at once. It feels good to be recognized as a threat by that level of player.

GetterRobo, on 24 May 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

When I see pugs time and time again refusing to push

They're allergic to the W key. It's not their fault.

Edited by StillRadioactive, 24 May 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[Sarlic]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

No.

PGI is the disgrace for allowing it to fester unchallenged for over a year. I dislike the Meta, and such, but comp is comp. While I don't enjoy it, there is a mindset that does. The problem is that there is one, single, all encompassingly superior tactic to the meta, and PGI has, if anything, made it worse with each attempt to curb and control it. Nerf after nerf that ignores the core issues, and instead punish builds and weapons more heavily when used in a non meta role. There will always be a meta. There will always be a weapon, a chassis, a tactic, which overall is "best". But most games don't allow it to become such a clear cut dominating one.

That is squarely on Paul, Russ and Bryan's shoulders.

You can't really blame the inmates when the asylum's masters are the one's allowing them to run amok.

I agree, but i would like to add

Its my opninion, like it or not. Any team should be able to play with all variaties. Not some meta packed team. I do blame the poor balance, yet again 'anything for a win, right?' I agree with you on PGI and so on. In dont play meta builds, never do.

Looking at the current State of the game with all these meta players (which are awfull alot of them) makes me sad. As you point out we always will have meta, but the large group of meta users is just...pathetic. Community has their own responsibility aswell.

I believe alot of pilots are experienced on the team, nothing wrong with their skills, but its the meta packs i dont like.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 May 2014 - 01:13 AM.

[Squirtbox]

This tournament is doing nothing but highlighting how destructive pinpoint damage is compared to DoT weapons, namely lasers. This is also really only an issue because of INSTANT CONVERGENCE. A mechanic that was removed shortly before open beta and the current meta has been supreme essentially since then.

[XX Sulla XX]

Agreed it is balance problems and not player problems.

[Vassago Rain]

Best mech in the game.