145 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

GetterRobo, on 24 May 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

Agree with Bishop Steiner, blame PGI, do not blame the top players - the top players simply are best at what they do and that is piloting mechs to the nth degree in MW:0, meta or no-meta.

I've had the opportunity in the past to play with and watch Proton. He is truly a master player in every respect. I've watched him play everything from spiders (lights), heavies, assaults and he tops the match charts almost all the time. Put him in a meta-mech and really watch him blow apart the opposition.

We can all learn a bit from watching the top players play, from situational awareness (very very important), maximising and making the most out of your mech to match your playstyle and taking advantage of weaknesses in enemy lines and where to aim for best effect.

Well said.

Unfortunately while some players think those top tier players are simply there by fluke or "abusing" game mechanics.

The reality is most top tier players will be top tier regardless of what the meta is.



It's what players know about themselves that has them posting insults against players they probably don't even know.


This is coming from someone who isn't a part of any of those teams, PUGs solo most of the time and rarely plays his DS build.

[Sarlic]

Ultimatum X, on 24 May 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Well said.

Unfortunately while some players think those top tier players are simply there by fluke or "abusing" game mechanics.

The reality is most top tier players will be top tier regardless of what the meta is.



It's what players know about themselves that has them posting insults against players they probably don't even know.


This is coming from someone who isn't a part of any of those teams, PUGs solo most of the time and rarely plays his DS build.

I dont call this competitive in any way. The only thing i see is here experience. What are you bragging about? Its obvious that players to choose the best meta. Which is logic, but sad at same time.

Edit: oh wait, your that math guy. Nevermind it then.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 May 2014 - 04:39 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerberus, on 24 May 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

And Ironically, it hasn`t even started yet

started a week ago.

Itheseus Nevversan, on 23 May 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Most of us don't actually use standards in our ds especially for comp, speed is very important for out maneuvering the enemy in 12v12. All our victors run at 78kph.

Smoke Jaguars...Steel Jags..... not the same.

panicbutton, on 24 May 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that there will always be a metagame as long as there are tryhard ******** like SJR, SwK, HoL, CSJ, 228th, HHoD, et al playing. The DS is just the flavor of the last month as the highlander got kicked in the teeth in terms of its jump-sniping capabilities. Even if jump sniping was out of the question, some other form of better-than-the-rest 'mech or combination of 'mechs will rear its ugly head and cast a shadow on the valley of solo queue. This tournament, like any other competitive game (like some mentioned earlier by people who are "done with pgi"), just showcases what currently works for these teams in terms of strategies. While some strategies may be more or less entertaining to watch, they are all designed to win. No one went into a tournament match thinking "hm, I wonder what the community really wants to see..." Those guys, myself included, play to win. Just take a big fat chill pill, clean your keyboard, grab a beer, and maybe start to plan out how you will criticize the next big thing after jump sniping is no longer "meta". Maybe you could throw up a forum post, start a reddit thread, threaten to quit the game, or go light dog poo on fire in front of PGI's office building (I do not advocate any criminal activity). Regardless of how boring it is to watch two teams camp it out with dragon slayers, cataphracts, shadowhawks, and a few lights, I'm just glad PGI put the damn tourney together. It lets people who might have an interest in doing something other than queue solo and cry know what's out there. At the very least, it removes 24 poptarts from the solo queue for a short time every few days. Wait for the matches to start... then... TO THE WANG!

Yes there will always be a metagame.

That is commpon sense.


It is also common sense that it does not have to be so pronounced, ahead and shoulders above every other option. The balance between poptarting and pretty much every other tactic, in reward/risk ratio is about the most egregious that I have seen that doesn't require Gold Ammo.

[Bishop Steiner]

StillRadioactive, on 24 May 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

FYI, my above comment about the ladder does include those extreme top-tier players. Gman is in the 1v1 ladder, as is Dankith, ciller, Eagle Falconhawk, TheMagician, Vas79, Rickrom, Demosthones, heimdelight, Grumpy... the list goes on and on and on, and it's just chock full of raw skill of the highest caliber.

The order is skewed at the moment, since it's only week 3 and standings were initially placed first-come-first-served, but soon it'll get sorted out.

I came late to the party, but I really do hope to have some matches against those top-tier guys as I climb the ladder, because I run exclusively anti-meta builds. I've compiled all the 1v1 videos that people have posted, so you can get a feel for the type of competition.

http://mwomercs.com/...ompetitive-1v1/

And I've run some pickup matches of 2v2 (not ranked) against Hann Solo and Grumpy from BSK. Hearing them say at the beginning of the match "Focus fire on Radio" is humbling, terrifying, and uplifting all at once. It feels good to be recognized as a threat by that level of player.



They're allergic to the W key. It's not their fault.

unless Hot Kid is your alt account, I don't believe that was being tossed at you.

[Zerberus]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

started a week ago.
...

We apparently mean different tournaments

[N E R E V A R]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

started a week ago.


Smoke Jaguars...Steel Jags..... not the same.


Yes there will always be a metagame.

That is commpon sense.


It is also common sense that it does not have to be so pronounced, ahead and shoulders above every other option. The balance between poptarting and pretty much every other tactic, in reward/risk ratio is about the most egregious that I have seen that doesn't require Gold Ammo.

We were talking about steel jags in particular? Most top tier players use xl engines in their dragon slayers, just look at the House of Lords in the tourney, their slayers all run xls.

[wanderer]

It's because Paul doesn't actually understand "fixing" things, leading to a meta that's even narrower than before.

A few months back, the Highlander and Victor dominated. Paul decided to make them less agile.

That wasn't why there was a problem. The problems were:

1) Accurate fire in mid-air. The Dragon Slayer is best for reasons described previous to this post, but the Shadow Hawk pulls it off just fine too, as does the Cataphract-3D in the heavies. Cutting your jets gives you a clean poptart/jump snipe.

2) Pinpoint, front-loaded damage. Delivering all your damage to one place all at once means minimal exposure when lobbing shots downrange and maximum efficiency for defeating defensive measures.

That jump shots also maximize the only defense available (that is, having terrain stop as many shots as possible) means the DS gets the best of it all, and that's why you'll see at least a lance of them on almost every competitive-level 12-man...and matches that are composed of endless PPC/AC's with the occasional ER LL zipping back and forth while they stave off boredom by telling bad jokes about missile boats.

[Bishop Steiner]

Itheseus Nevversan, on 24 May 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

We were talking about steel jags in particular? Most top tier players use xl engines in their dragon slayers, just look at the House of Lords in the tourney, their slayers all run xls.

It's possible. Most higher Elo players I know eschew XLs, though that was also more when the HGN was in vogue, due to not really needing to spare tonnage. XL seem a shocking shift in tactics, though necessary for more mobile fights. As for HoL, everytime I try to look at their specs, it just says "GGClose". (It's funny how they don't say that when they lose in a PUG match.)

It would be almost hypocritical too, after a year of listening to most of those guys tell me I was a n00b for mounting an XL in an Assault... despite the VTR having some of the best hitboxes in game to protect it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 May 2014 - 05:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerberus, on 24 May 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

We apparently mean different tournaments

http://mwomercs.com/...1/#EventBracket would be the only one anyone on here would be speaking of...since future tournaments are hard to comment on.

[C E Dwyer]

FupDup, on 23 May 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Because:

the one at the back must be an D-DC or a Stalker

[Bishop Steiner]

Cathy, on 24 May 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

the one at the back must be an D-DC or a Stalker

DDC. Real tryhard don't use LRMs when they can use ECM instead.

[Gigastrike]

Yeah, the Dragon Slayer makes all sorts of sense from a poptarting perspective.

I think a better question is: why so many Firebrands when all they mount is dual AC/20s?

edit: ok this isn't really looking at it from a competitive perspective anymore, but still.

Edited by Gigastrike, 24 May 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

No.

PGI is the disgrace for allowing it to fester unchallenged for over a year. I dislike the Meta, and such, but comp is comp. While I don't enjoy it, there is a mindset that does. The problem is that there is one, single, all encompassingly superior tactic to the meta, and PGI has, if anything, made it worse with each attempt to curb and control it. Nerf after nerf that ignores the core issues, and instead punish builds and weapons more heavily when used in a non meta role. There will always be a meta. There will always be a weapon, a chassis, a tactic, which overall is "best". But most games don't allow it to become such a clear cut dominating one.

That is squarely on Paul, Russ and Bryan's shoulders.

You can't really blame the inmates when the asylum's masters are the one's allowing them to run amok.

Completely agree

PGI have allowed this and done nothing effective to stop, the jumpsniper/poptart meta, but it has damaged brawler builds, with torso twist, jump jets nerfed, and srm hit registery still broken, it will remain so until PGi nerf the custom system that allows these builds.

Which if course they won't, as changing the custom system will be the final act of admission, that they don't know how to make a good game

[C E Dwyer]

Gigastrike, on 24 May 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yeah, the Dragon Slayer makes all sorts of sense from a poptarting perspective.

I think a better question is: why so many Firebrands when all they mount is dual AC/20s?

edit: ok this isn't really looking at it from a competitive perspective anymore, but still.

40 damage to usually one location in one alpha, a cool FB can do two alpha's and not shut down except on hot maps like TT and even if srms are made fully functional (which I doubt) the ac20 doesn't have a terminal range of 270 meters only, though gauss are better over all for those that can master the fire sequence and track targets

[Prezimonto]

StillRadioactive, on 24 May 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Playing the smaller unit games really diversifies things. The MWO Ladder has 1v1, 2v2 and 4v4, which does have its fair share of PPC/AC5, but they don't completely dominate the way they do in 12v12.

http://mwoladder.enjin.com

You've got your poptart Dragon Slayers, yes... but you've also got brawling DDCs, hit-and-run Dragons, LRM/spotter combos, and skirmishing Griffins all putting up good records on the ladders. It's brought new life into the game for me.

I'll check it out. That being said stock mech monday's are enough fun for a week for me, lately.

[Gigastrike]

Cathy, on 24 May 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

40 damage to usually one location in one alpha, a cool FB can do two alpha's and not shut down except on hot maps like TT and even if srms are made fully functional (which I doubt) the ac20 doesn't have a terminal range of 270 meters only, though gauss are better over all for those that can master the fire sequence and track targets

Well my point was "why pay money to do something that literally any c-bill Jager can do", but whatever.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cathy, on 24 May 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Completely agree

PGI have allowed this and done nothing effective to stop, the jumpsniper/poptart meta, but it has damaged brawler builds, with torso twist, jump jets nerfed, and srm hit registery still broken, it will remain so until PGi nerf the custom system that allows these builds.

Which if course they won't, as changing the custom system will be the final act of admission, that they don't know how to make a good game

agreed. You know I have been one of the leaders of the charge for sized hardpoints since CB. Exact implementation of course, is debated, but the overall need, not by anyone truly thinking it through.

Though I do feel a simple solution to the poptart meta exists within already extant game mechanics. I still think Paul, in his usual ability to overlook the elegantly simple fix in favor of the complex and futile could literally make the change in seconds.

One currently has cockpit and reticle shake on upjump. Simply set the mechanic to continue to apply shake for .5-1.0 second after thrust is cut. Seems simple, maybe too much so, but that, IMO, is the beauty.

Right now the Risk/Reward Ratio is heavily weighted in favor of poptarting, but by giving that extra shake time on the downjump, one forces a mech to jump higher to have the window needed to shoot accurately. This means more of the mech is exposed for a longer period. This in turn helps level the R/Rr (Risk Reward Ratio). It also means that relaistically, mechs have to invest in more JJs, in many cases, devoting more tonnage to said tactic. And the beauty is, it does not remove jump sniping as a viable tactic, but DOES increase the degree of difficulty to the point that only the truly good ones will use it regularly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gigastrike, on 24 May 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Well my point was "why pay money to do something that literally any c-bill Jager can do", but whatever.

Yeah, I've always felt the same, but for some folk, it's about the cbill bonus, no the hardpoints. And in all fairness, against decent comp, the BoomJager is not really the EZMode it is portrayed. I have over 400 matches in one on my old DD. REALLY limited range, squishy XL and such. Yeah, I could get some kills as long as my ambush mojo was working, but had a LOT of limitations, too. Actually had much higher scores running dual ac10s and lasers, or even my current LB-X/MG version which is a heck of a lot of fun.

Just wish I could come up with a fun firebrand build. But I really have not enjoyed it.

[N E R E V A R]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

It's possible. Most higher Elo players I know eschew XLs, though that was also more when the HGN was in vogue, due to not really needing to spare tonnage. XL seem a shocking shift in tactics, though necessary for more mobile fights. As for HoL, everytime I try to look at their specs, it just says "GGClose". (It's funny how they don't say that when they lose in a PUG match.)

It would be almost hypocritical too, after a year of listening to most of those guys tell me I was a n00b for mounting an XL in an Assault... despite the VTR having some of the best hitboxes in game to protect it.

Well I'm actually with the House of Lords so I do know what builds they run, hell even villz was running an xl in his highlander shortly before he stopped playing.

[Duncan Aravain]

After this tournament I would like PGI to take the results/stats and change things for the better in regards to weapon load outs.



What should ideally happen: PGI realizes there is a basic flaw in both weapon and hard point coding and does a complete/major rewrite of the code to fix problems like ghost heat et. al., thereby fixing the majority of the problems with one or two new code builds. Future later builds tweaks the game closer to the ideal.

What would be acceptable to happen: PGI makes an attempt to correct basic flaws in the concept/programming, allowing for a better game and reducing the amount of game breaking/bending flaws that not only show up in tournaments, but on a daily basis (if not almost every match). This is accomplished by numerous new code builds full of flaws and missteps, but it eventually gets a somewhat better game after a small number of months of attempts. The game remains flawed, but far improved and more enjoyable than the current setup.

What will be most likely to happen: PGI offers new mechs/colors/cockpit items in the attempt to both distract and obtain as much money as they can from the players. A couple attempts to fix the underlying problems will be attempted, but fail/be bugged. Future attempts will be dropped. Game development will be delayed, again. Raging will continue on the forums.