325 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

YueFei, on 25 May 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Bullshit, Jun. Your analogy makes no sense.

No, what you're really doing is throwing a tantrum because someone dared to deploy their Queen, or to use Castling. For whatever reason you refuse to use your Queen, or to leap your Knights over other pieces, because *you* decided it was unsporting. Well guess what? You don't get to decide the rules of Chess, because you're an unranked nobody. I think the World Chess Federation and the Grandmasters are far better qualified to evaluate the nuances of Chess than you are.

Its funny how you made it halfway there then went in a totally different direction.

Who decides what is acceptable in a chess match? Who decides what is acceptable in society? The majority do.

Tryhards are in the minority yet repeatedly insist that their opinions > than that of the majority for reasons like "they are noobs!" "scrubs!" "nobody told me i cant do it so i will!".

In MWO the majority have decided that using metabuilds is unacceptable for a wide variety of reasons already explained many times over.

This doesnt work in real life for obvious reasons but it does in MWO because there are no consequences whatsoever for sociopathic behaviour, unfortunately enough.

The minority in MWO showing up with metabuilds and then telling people to learn2play makes as much sense as me telling all the chess grandmasters to learn2play when i insist on using all queens in a chess match. The only difference is that since the latter happens in real life, i will get laughed out of the room while in MWO people are forced to be in the same match with some of the most disgusting examples of human beings.

Oh in case anyone is interested in real life griefing/trolling : google westboro church. They find the funeral locations of dead US service personnel and then troll the crap out of it with lots of provocative signs, broadcasting speeches, etc. Everything they do is perfectly legal but at the same time most people think they are complete scumbags. Especially since their main aim in doing this is to try and provoke funeral goers into assaulting them at which point they engage in massive lawsuits for "damages" (the church is run by a family of lawyers).

Claiming that something is perfectly ok because it is legal to do fails to understand basic social norms.

I made this nice little comic here to explain the above, but i have a feeling im wasting my time. Its like trying to explain to bank executives that no, causing a global financial crisis so that they can get a fat paycheck is NOT ok, even if it's legal to do so. They are just going to give you blank stares. Actually, i think something similar happened....some large financial company made shareholders lose millions of dollars worth of investments, one executive suggested that all the executives forego their bonuses as an apology, and someone leaked company emails from the other executives that basically went "you must be ********, that is a lot of money! And it's OUR money!". I can't remember which company this was....anyone know?

Demuder, on 25 May 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

I am afraid you got it totally backwards lockwoodx. Bad game design is 100% the devs' fault. The players have no say in it and cannot affect it. Maybe you are confusing bad game design with a bad meta, which surely is dependent on the players, however, the meta is consequence of the game design. If the design is bad, the meta is bad.

Maybe you can blame players for bad taste, you can blame them for not showing a gentlemanly behavior, but you cannot blame them for not designing the game right.

I dare you -or anyone for that matter- to demonstrate which design choices were affected by the players. I could make a list, but it would only show what is painfully obvious. One thing PGI never did was to listen to the players. They don't listen to whiners, they don't listen to experienced players, they don't listen to new players, they don't listen to hardcore players, they don't listen to BT fans, they don't listen to anyone. One can blame MWO's community for many things, affecting the game design is not one of them.

I think his point was that the resulting bad game experience is partly the fault of the players, which is true since a small group of griefers has been hard at work trying to make as many people quit the game as possible for like a year. Just look at how many people have quit the game citing their terrible gameplay experience, courtesy of sync dropping in metabuilds to pad egos and stats.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 26 May 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Tezcatli]

I think it's mostly on the developers. Because while they should listen to the community. They shouldn't be told what to do by them. The community is invested as far as the mechs they buy and the enjoyment they get from it. The company has more serious concerns of financing the game and keeping their people employed. In the end ultimate decisions should always fall on the company. So if it's poor design. It's really on them. Even if they did listen to the community, they chose to do so, because they thought it was a good idea.

[YueFei]

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Its funny how you made it halfway there then went in a totally different direction.

Who decides what is acceptable in a chess match? Who decides what is acceptable in society? The majority do.

No. The other 99% of the losers playing chess do not decide the rules of chess. The crazy soccer fans screaming at their televisions do not get to decide the rules of soccer.

You're delusional, Jun. We're done here.

[EvilCow]

BS, already in early closed beta players pointed out the inherent flaws in design, we quickly discovered that design choices are never reconsidered. Even after the ECM fiasco it received just a minor tweak and it took months.

[RG Notch]

lockwoodx, on 25 May 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

I'd like to share my thoughts on how casual players are adapting to the meta without embracing it, along with how tryhards that continue to abuse it are as much to blame when it comes to "bad game design".



It's a shared blame, but given where it is due. The "bad game design" this poster is referring to is common knowledge among the players who exploit it, so I'll call them out on it when I see them. On the bright side, even after vowing not to give 12s another chance until there's some major reform, I was pretty "open to suggestion" last night and the lure of fun with friends was enough to give it a shot. We had some awesome balanced matches at first with lots of variety and fun. They got us and we got them in healthy exchanges of skill and sportsmanship. Then the brick wall that are tryhards came up and fun time was over. The way these guys take the game so seriously and play as if their lives depended on it was hilariously tragic.

Most hardcore players will say the same old "L2P" ect... and we pick up fresh clan members weekly who have tried running with those guys claiming it wasn't any fun dropping with a pack of d-bags. They have tons of fun goofing around with us and we love them for it. We've also got some serious players of our own but they're tactful and mature enough to understand if we all ran the way they did every drop, we would be part of the problem and not the solution. It's a great group of guys. Nobody is judgmental, you can drop in what you want, and fun is a focus over winning. Winning is nice too, but if you don't have fun then you'll never drop enough to learn from mistakes. One mistake players are learning form is not indulging those bullies and the way they exploit "bad game design" because they're consciously doing it. When some tryhards rolled over us last night more than half the 12 man said "sorry we're done for now", and it sucks for those who were wanting to continue or a rematch. Imagine how many more nights end prematurely across the game, even during prime-time, because a niche part of the community thinks it's ok to exploit "bad game design?"

Casuals get told by them to go "adapt" and more and more of us are daily. We're not adapting to the meta because that's "bad game design" according to those unwilling to look in the mirror and see where the real problem lies. The majority of players are adapting directly to the D-bags themselves and the attitudes they carry around that "bad game design" is perfectly ok to exploit. It's that kind of win at any cost mentality that drives players out of the game, a game that relies on community and morale for its own survival. Bad game design is something the management will need to step in and correct, but if the players work together to reduce its impact on the game, that allows designers to be more creative than heavy handed when the time comes.

Unless overly competitive players learn to change their attitudes soon they'll be stuck playing "unable to find matchwarrior" while the rest of us have fun in private ones, because as leaders realize they'll lose a majority of active players due to one or two ugly matches of meta exploiters, they'll avoid taking their men into them for the sake of making sure everyone has a good time. As predicted in the past, bullies who exploit the meta take every opportunity to wag the dog and pile onto PGI when PGI is actually taking strides to make decent progress. Bad game design is always compounded by bad decisions. It's those conscious decisions to exploit bad game design that leaves players just as at fault for the poor health of this game as the designers who allow it.

Cheers

Do you think that **** victims are also responsible? Maybe if they dressed more conservatively it wouldn't happen.

[Wolfways]

Does it really matter who's fault it is? Only one of those groups can fix it.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Apparently you missed the point. The idea that you can push all the blame to PGI while abusing something for personal gain is fatally flawed, and in real life, everyone recognizes this.

Also i think there is a serious problem here if people's only moral compass is "if its not illegal, i will do it!". Just thinking of all the sociopaths out there makes really worried. Imagine if i go on a cruise and people get it into their heads that international waters = everything goes and some of the people here just happen to be on the same ship, so they start robbing people at knife point for money or something.

No, I didn't miss the point. You made a garbage analogy showing you have no understanding of Common Law.

Do you understand the difference between illegal and unethical? Because something is unethical doesn't make it illegal. If behaviours fall within the scope of the law they are perfectly legal regardless of how ethical they are. Precedence of illegality only applies to behaviours that leave the scope of the law such as breaking TOS, not by utilizing broken mechanics for gains.

Your second analogy falls miserably short as well. Theft in all regions and cultures is regarded as illegal. So your point = moot, because that would be akin to botting, which is a bannable offense in ALL video games. To assume otherwise is idiotic.

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Its funny how you made it halfway there then went in a totally different direction.

Who decides what is acceptable in a chess match? Who decides what is acceptable in society? The majority do.

Tryhards are in the minority yet repeatedly insist that their opinions > than that of the majority for reasons like "they are noobs!" "scrubs!" "nobody told me i cant do it so i will!".

In MWO the majority have decided that using metabuilds is unacceptable for a wide variety of reasons already explained many times over.

This doesnt work in real life for obvious reasons but it does in MWO because there are no consequences whatsoever for sociopathic behaviour, unfortunately enough.

The minority in MWO showing up with metabuilds and then telling people to learn2play makes as much sense as me telling all the chess grandmasters to learn2play when i insist on using all queens in a chess match. The only difference is that since the latter happens in real life, i will get laughed out of the room while in MWO people are forced to be in the same match with some of the most disgusting examples of human beings.

Oh in case anyone is interested in real life griefing/trolling : google westboro church. They find the funeral locations of dead US service personnel and then troll the crap out of it with lots of provocative signs, broadcasting speeches, etc. Everything they do is perfectly legal but at the same time most people think they are complete scumbags. Especially since their main aim in doing this is to try and provoke funeral goers into assaulting them at which point they engage in massive lawsuits for "damages" (the church is run by a family of lawyers).

Claiming that something is perfectly ok because it is legal to do fails to understand basic social norms.



I think his point was that the resulting bad game experience is partly the fault of the players, which is true since a small group of griefers has been hard at work trying to make as many people quit the game as possible for like a year. Just look at how many people have quit the game citing their terrible gameplay experience, courtesy of sync dropping in metabuilds to pad egos and stats.

You contradict yourself so hard I had to read your post multiple times.

Majority deems meta unacceptable, but their are enough minority that use meta, something that majority uses by definition, to chase away the majority. Your circular reasoning is about as funny as a dog chasing it's tail, because that's what your argument just did.

Your chess example sucks too. There are rules to be observed. Not abiding by those rules is illegal within the scope of the game. Do the rules say you can bring all queens? No? Then you can't bring all queens.

Do the rules say I can't stack PPCs, ACs, and JJs? No? Then maybe you should petition PGI to make it illegal to make builds that stack like that, then you might have an argument.


Again the initial argument of blaming the community for a poorly designed game is like blaming the homeowner for a poorly built house that the contractor cut corners on.

[M0rpHeu5]

I enjoy brawling, if brawling becomes meta will i become a tyrand?

[A banana in the tailpipe]

M0rpHeu5, on 26 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I enjoy brawling, if brawling becomes meta will i become a tyrand?

People already brawl with meta specs. It all depends on the attitude of the player. That's what this thread is all about.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

M0rpHeu5, on 26 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I enjoy brawling, if brawling becomes meta will i become a tyrand?

Yes, you'll be a tryhard. And in order to not be one, you'll need to be in a Dragon Slayer as a Hipster D-Bag to be different.

lockwoodx, on 26 May 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

People already brawl with meta specs. It all depends on the attitude of the player. That's what this thread is all about.

No, this was you trying to blame the playerbase for using good weapons and mechs in such a way to win that you decided to label that playstyle and the people who use it as D-Bags.

Edited by JohanssenJr, 26 May 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

RG Notch, on 26 May 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Do you think that **** victims are also responsible? Maybe if they dressed more conservatively it wouldn't happen.

I know exactly what word you used by the context of the post. MWO is a game, a MMO, and not real life so take that trash elsewhere. Ironically the ones who do treat it like real life or death situations, stomping pugs, exploiting "bad game design" are the ones in chat saying "shhhhh just let it happen. It will all be over soon." Your attempt to blow this out of proportion by dropping the Rp-Card has backfired horribly sir. Thank you for helping me make my point.

JohanssenJr, on 26 May 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

No, this was you trying to blame the playerbase for using good weapons and mechs in such a way to win that you decided to label that playstyle and the people who use it as D-Bags.

This is me explaining why players who act like D-bags are driving the population away. Sorry you agree with them it's perfectly fine to exploit "bad game design", because I've already proven that's what tryhard love doing. You're quacking like a duck now so I'm going to call you a duck. How's "Donald" sound for a callsign?... Because you sound mad as hell.

[Khobai]

bad game design is 100% the developers fault when players tell them how to fix their game and they choose to ignore their players saying they arnt the target audience. Although in the case of PGI its possible that IGP is partly to blame too. So lets call it 50/50 blame between developer and publisher. But the players definitely arnt to blame for this travesty.

Edited by Khobai, 26 May 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[YueFei]

lockwoodx, on 26 May 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

I know exactly what word you used by the context of the post. MWO is a game, a MMO, and not real life so take that trash elsewhere. Ironically the ones who do treat it like real life or death situations, stomping pugs, exploiting "bad game design" are the ones in chat saying "shhhhh just let it happen. It will all be over soon." Your attempt to blow this out of proportion by dropping the Rp-Card has backfired horribly sir. Thank you for helping me make my point.



This is me explaining why players who act like D-bags are driving the population away. Sorry you agree with them it's perfectly fine to exploit "bad game design", because I've already proven that's what tryhard love doing. You're quacking like a duck now so I'm going to call you a duck. How's "Donald" sound for a callsign?... Because you sound mad as hell.

Hey Lockwood. Stop equipping your mechs with stuff like lasers and SRMs and LBX. That's such a crutch. Equip your mechs with TAG beams and flamers like I do. That's the only manly way to play. Why do you have to exploit bad game mechanics to gain an advantage over me? You're such a scumbag. You're the reason this game is dying.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

lockwoodx, on 26 May 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

This is me explaining why players who act like D-bags are driving the population away. Sorry you agree with them it's perfectly fine to exploit "bad game design", because I've already proven that's what tryhard love doing. You're quacking like a duck now so I'm going to call you a duck. How's "Donald" sound for a callsign?... Because you sound mad as hell.

I could care less what you call me. I'm an ******** and I know it.

It still stands you explained your position poorly. So poorly in fact, that with the huge backlash you are now trying to change your stance and grasp at straws.

You blamed the players for poor game balance. When the playerbase has no impact on game design.

If you're going to blame the playerbase for being D-Bags and chasing away players, the you should've said so. Not blame for them for mechanics in development that get abused.


ggclose

[Mawai]

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Apparently you missed the point. The idea that you can push all the blame to PGI while abusing something for personal gain is fatally flawed, and in real life, everyone recognizes this.

Also i think there is a serious problem here if people's only moral compass is "if its not illegal, i will do it!". Just thinking of all the sociopaths out there makes really worried. Imagine if i go on a cruise and people get it into their heads that international waters = everything goes and some of the people here just happen to be on the same ship, so they start robbing people at knife point for money or something.

Well ...

"The idea that you can push all the blame to PGI while abusing something for personal gain is fatally flawed, and in real life, everyone recognizes this."

In real life, this statement is patently untrue ... so I don't see why it would be any different in a game.

In real life, there are many folks who will pick up found money or items and not return them. They seem to feel finders keepers applies ... not generally illegal behaviour ... but possibly abusing a system for personal gain.

Many companies will pay employees the least amount possible, with no vacations or other benefits to maximize profits. Many individuals do the same thing. Minimum wage exists for a reason in some jurisdictions.

Many individuals embrace tax loopholes to reduce the amount of money they owe the government which the government then turns around and uses to pay for employees, social services, defense and other spending in the interests of society.

There are MANY examples in the real world of people abusing something for personal gain. So many that at times I wonder if it is the general rule for behaviour.

"Also i think there is a serious problem here if people's only moral compass is "if its not illegal, i will do it!". Just thinking of all the sociopaths out there makes really worried. Imagine if i go on a cruise and people get it into their heads that international waters = everything goes and some of the people here just happen to be on the same ship, so they start robbing people at knife point for money or something."

For many people ... "if its not illegal, i will do it!" ... is a way of life. For a certain segment of the population the motto might be "Even if it is illegal, If I can get away with it, I will do it!". In addition, your example actually doesn't hold water ... even in international waters you are on a boat flying a flag ... the laws of the country associated with that flag generally apply to actions taken on the boat ... so if the rule of law is all that is holding certain people in check ... then we need not worry when traveling on a ship since laws and associated penalties still apply (it may also still be the case that the captain of a ship at sea has extraordinary judicial powers in an emergency ... ).

In any case, the end result, is that when a system allows certain behaviour without penalty and which are actually legal and allowed in the system, then some people will do those things no matter how much other members of the community might abhor that behaviour. In addition, since these actions are condoned by the system, strong moral feeling by one segment of the population do not make the actions of other parts of the community "wrong" in an absolute sense.

The debate over abortion (to really pull in an off-topic topic) would be a perfect real world example. There are folks on both sides of that debate that feel incredibly strongly that one side or the other is completely wrong. Different sets of morals and beliefs on both sides of the debate. The design of human biology and the legal system constrain societal behaviour ... depending on where you live no illegal actions are involved ... but the opposite sides of the debate are so strongly polarized that they often can't debate it the other side is just wrong.

[Mawai]

Jun Watarase, on 26 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Its funny how you made it halfway there then went in a totally different direction.

Tryhards are in the minority yet repeatedly insist that their opinions > than that of the majority for reasons like "they are noobs!" "scrubs!" "nobody told me i cant do it so i will!".

In MWO the majority have decided that using metabuilds is unacceptable for a wide variety of reasons already explained many times over.

This doesnt work in real life for obvious reasons but it does in MWO because there are no consequences whatsoever for sociopathic behaviour, unfortunately enough.

The minority in MWO showing up with metabuilds and then telling people to learn2play makes as much sense as me telling all the chess grandmasters to learn2play when i insist on using all queens in a chess match. The only difference is that since the latter happens in real life, i will get laughed out of the room while in MWO people are forced to be in the same match with some of the most disgusting examples of human beings.

Oh in case anyone is interested in real life griefing/trolling : google westboro church. They find the funeral locations of dead US service personnel and then troll the crap out of it with lots of provocative signs, broadcasting speeches, etc. Everything they do is perfectly legal but at the same time most people think they are complete scumbags. Especially since their main aim in doing this is to try and provoke funeral goers into assaulting them at which point they engage in massive lawsuits for "damages" (the church is run by a family of lawyers).

Claiming that something is perfectly ok because it is legal to do fails to understand basic social norms.

I made this nice little comic here to explain the above, but i have a feeling im wasting my time. Its like trying to explain to bank executives that no, causing a global financial crisis so that they can get a fat paycheck is NOT ok, even if it's legal to do so. They are just going to give you blank stares. Actually, i think something similar happened....some large financial company made shareholders lose millions of dollars worth of investments, one executive suggested that all the executives forego their bonuses as an apology, and someone leaked company emails from the other executives that basically went "you must be ********, that is a lot of money! And it's OUR money!". I can't remember which company this was....anyone know?


I think his point was that the resulting bad game experience is partly the fault of the players, which is true since a small group of griefers has been hard at work trying to make as many people quit the game as possible for like a year. Just look at how many people have quit the game citing their terrible gameplay experience, courtesy of sync dropping in metabuilds to pad egos and stats.

Sorry but I have to disagree with some of the comments here ... possibly a bad decision in light of the fact that this is already mostly a flame war ... but anyway ...

"Who decides what is acceptable in a chess match? Who decides what is acceptable in society? The majority do."

This is not correct. A governing body or individual usually decides what is acceptable and implements organized penalties for unacceptable behaviour.
- Rules of chess - international chess federation is probably the responsible group at the moment though I could be completely wrong.
- In the US - laws are made by local, state and federal governments - these laws do not necessarily reflect the wishes of the majority (look at tax legislation ... if the majority was in charge I suspect the taxes on the wealthy would be higher ... don't you?) - representatives may be elected but the rules are not made by the majority - it is made by the governing body.
- In the case of MWO ... who is the governing body? PGI ... they design the game, balance the game, implement rules to constrain player choices ... if there are choices that are better than others and some players make those choices ... it is not the fault of the player making the choice but of PGI for making the choice preferable in the first place. This design may have negative consequences for the player base as a whole, for player retention, for enjoyment of the game ... but it is not the fault of the players ... it is a design issue with the rules of the game as implemented by PGI.

"In MWO the majority have decided that using metabuilds is unacceptable for a wide variety of reasons already explained many times over."

Well ... based on my experience which is mostly solo PUG this is pretty much untrue based on what the majority of people actually fit to their mechs. I target opponents when I fight them ... I look at the fits ... I look at the fits of team mates when I have died to see if there are new ideas or cool things to try ... the vase majority of folks will fit some form of long range weaponry AC+PPC maybe LL with the possibility of backup close range weapons ... SRM/ML/SL/SPL/MG etc. Some will have JJ and do the poptart thing ... most folks try to use cover ... peek out fire and dodge back. So, in my opinion, from what I have seen, the majority of MWO certainly do NOT use anything except variations on "meta" builds.


"The minority in MWO showing up with metabuilds and then telling people to learn2play makes as much sense as me telling all the chess grandmasters to learn2play when i insist on using all queens in a chess match. The only difference is that since the latter happens in real life, i will get laughed out of the room while in MWO people are forced to be in the same match with some of the most disgusting examples of human beings."

Bad choice of example ... in MWO the metabuilds are not against any rules ... while using all queens in chess clearly IS against the rules. You would get laughed at in chess because you are clearly breaking the existing rules while the person using a meta build in MWO is working inside the system. "Gaming the system" ... utilizing rules loopholes to maximize your personal advantage happens all the time in the real world ... that is why loopholes are closed with rules or legislation. On the other hand, if you studied the grand masters of chess, learned the best strategies, the best way to use each piece, when to trade queens and became an expert at chess so that you won frequently and became a chess champion ... you would be praised for the effort since you learned to use each piece to its maximum effectiveness. The queen is your AC20 ... rooks dual PPCs ... in chess the roles of the pieces have been balanced by centuries of playtesting ... unfortunately, MWO is substantially younger and more complex in some ways ... so it is not nearly so well balanced. Design issue ... not player issue.

"Claiming that something is perfectly ok because it is legal to do fails to understand basic social norms."

Interesting church example. Completely reprehensible behaviour that is apparently quite legal and acceptable to a certain fraction of society ... and that behaviour will continue until the rules are changed. People can object all they want ... feel that something is unacceptable ... but until the rules are changed ... that behviour will often continue and it is the fault of the rule-making body for NOT implementing rules to limit or prevent such behaviour. In this case, changing the meta is up to PGI to change the rules.

" which is true since a small group of griefers has been hard at work trying to make as many people quit the game as possible for like a year."

Well, I've been playing MWO for almost 2 years, I help out new players when possible, offer advice and suggestions, and honestly in all of the thousands of matchs ... I can't say I have ever encountered anyone deliberately trying to create a bad play experience for new players. Maybe you know folks like this ... but I have never run into them. Sure I have probably lost matches to sync dropped meta builds ... stomps happen from time to time ... but it certainly wasn't clear that any griefing was intended ... this just sounds like a conspiracy theory with no evidence. Sorry ... just my opinion.

[Corvus Antaka]

Only in this game would anyone think to blame the gamers for bad game design.

Go find me a Diablo dev, or a starcraft dev, or a, you know, good video game dev, who's got balls to say "my game sucked cause our playerbase messed everything up"

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 May 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Only in this game would anyone think to blame the gamers for bad game design.

Go find me a Diablo dev, or a starcraft dev, or a, you know, good video game dev, who's got balls to say "my game sucked cause our playerbase messed everything up"

So you're saying Game devs are just as just as egotistical as tryhards. Thank you for backing me up.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

You guys crack me up. One guy talking about sociopathic behavior while comparing competitive players to {Godwin's Law}... Also comparing a half baked video game to real life society structures and morality.

ggclose

[Roland]

lockwoodx, on 26 May 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

So you're saying Game devs are just as just as egotistical as tryhards. Thank you for backing me up.

When you say tryhard, you confirm that you are garbage at the game.