244 replies to this topic

[Suko]

It's a bit difficult to follow, but this is what I've gotten from this situation thus far; PGI finally just talked back with 1/10 the intensity that the vast majority of those on r/MWO do against PGI every day. Why is this shocking? Because it's a professional company, they're just supposed to listen to people ***** and whine without any real goals or obtainable expectations without a retort?

I agree that ignoring that group seems like the smartest thing to have done, but seeing PGI throw a punch right back at the group who's usually on the offensive was a pleasant surprise for me. And that's coming from someone who's been critical of PGI for years now.

This reminds me of those arsehats who treat people like sh!t at Walmart. They grew up to be disrespectful little pr!cks and now finally got punched in the face by a Walmart employee after years of insulting them to their face. I'm not pro-Walmart, but I'd side with the employee in this scenario, just like I'm going to briefly side with PGI on this one.

[ApolloKaras]

Anyone that tells me that r/MWO, after the changes in moderators, hasn't been a cesspool of negativity is out of their mind. That's the main reason I no longer go to that sub. One of the posters took Niko's post and wrote Niko hits it out of the park. .. I'd have to agree.




On another note this may be an alert to PGI to maybe communicate on MORE FORMAL CHANNELS. Right now I'm going to Twitter, Reddit, some obscure Facebook post, I do not like you guys THAT much to follow you on 130 different mediums.

Edited by Saxie, 28 May 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Theycallmetheworkingman, on 27 May 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

More hypocritical and useless crap posting filled with vitriol. Stay classy Shar Wolf.

Still whining about how horrible a game is while doing nothing to help improve it.


Stay classy dude

[Kaemon]

ShadowVFX, on 28 May 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

It's a bit difficult to follow, but this is what I've gotten from this situation thus far; PGI finally just talked back with 1/10 the intensity that the vast majority of those on r/MWO do against PGI every day. Why is this shocking? Because it's a professional company, they're just supposed to listen to people ***** and whine without any real goals or obtainable expectations without a retort?

I agree that ignoring that group seems like the smartest thing to have done, but seeing PGI throw a punch right back at the group who's usually on the offensive was a pleasant surprise for me. And that's coming from someone who's been critical of PGI for years now.

This reminds me of those arsehats who treat people like sh!t at Walmart. They grew up to be disrespectful little pr!cks and now finally got punched in the face by a Walmart employee after years of insulting them to their face. I'm not pro-Walmart, but I'd side with the employee in this scenario, just like I'm going to briefly side with PGI on this one.

And then they sue Walmart, and make out like bandits, one of the tenets of customer interaction is if a customer treats you like ****, work them long enough and they WILL come around.

It's not personal, as much as you want to make it out to be, they have a ****** life, or job, or whatever and are immature and take it out on you.

Work them, listen and emphasize and you will see they will come around.

Sound off because you're feelings got hurt, and you just threw meat to the wolves (or goats to the golden ealges if you will).

It's easy to lose it and throw fire, but you can't be surprised when the forest fire you started comes back and bites your ass.

This is customer service 101, if you don't get that, you should probably go into forestry.

(and I work in IT in the fiancial services sector, where D-bags that make millions of dollars walk into a meeting like they are the second coming of Jesus and tell me how to do my job on an hourly basis, it's much more fun to work them into realizing they were the problem, then just punching them in the face and having to go sit in an HR mandatory all day meeting about feelings).

Edited by Kaemon, 28 May 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Kaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Ugh, separation by paywall?

I would say to this good sir, boo-erns.

A perk for premium members, doesnt violate F2P model, reduces flames, separates devs and mods from the open season of internet griefdom.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Note, this is a topic split from http://mwomercs.com/...-anything-poll/ to help separate these two different topics.



I do not think that particular subreddit (r/mwo) can be defined as a base for our fans or customers any longer...

Rather, since the change of management, and the resulting diaspora of our active Reddit fans towards r/OutreachHPG and other Subreddits. r/mwo has essentially become an echo-chamber for those who have been banned from our services for repeated abusive behavior.

I'd just like to point out... if you'd, you know, used your own forums properly as your focus for community outreach, encouraging your players to visit the forums you own and operate... instead of focusing on every other damned social networking service under the sun... maybe you could keep better track of this kind of behavior and you know...it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place?

The forums here are only "Toxic" because "you" [read PGI/IGP] have not nurturer a proper environment, we were told again and again that we are a minority [because you choose to go elsewhere.] and that what we had to say didn't matter... now you're freaking out because yet another area that you had gone to for hope, has turned dark.

All I can say is... in the immortal words of Nelson from the Simpsons. "HA HA"

Seriously, if you'd just, you know, focused on the forums, maybe this wouldn't be that big of a deal, OH AND you'd have a you know, central place to go to for your player feedback instead of having to split your attention 20 different places for a consensus.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Bongfu, on 28 May 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

What about founders? People who put money in at every overpriced content packages? Those people should have a developer forum like they do in Warframe. Founders of Warframe actually get to SHAPE the development of the game because the company engages them and their feedback. They see real progress in how the game is turning out.

I don't know if it is too late for PGI to change their stars on this, but that is something that should have happened a long time ago. That kind of model goes a long way of keeping people happy, informed, and optimistic.

Good point but founders received the content promised and received their name in the founders list. To my knowledge they were not promised any special access to unlimited dev interaction. Founders received what they were promised. The Founders tag doesnt entitle them anything more. Ongoing Premium membership should be encouraged rather than a one time content purchase 2+ years ago.

[AdamBaines]

Roadbeer, on 26 May 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

And from the volcanic depths, a new "island" is formed

WTG "New Era"

Le Sigh...........

[Kaemon]

LakeDaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

A perk for premium members, doesnt violate F2P model, reduces flames, separates devs and mods from the open season of internet griefdom.

alienates player base, creates a 'us vs. them' mentality, still leaves new players in the cesspool of unmoderateggon, and since the public only sees the dirtpoors site of the wall, leaves them with the same opinion of the game that we have now, that's it's a dumpster fire.

Honestly I don't see it helping, except for creating a floating island ( I think we have enough islands now).

[Tannhauser Gate]

Technoviking, on 28 May 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

If they closed their PR doors, many would just walk away. In the argument, there is hope for change. Behind the steel curtain, they have to PRODUCE. And we would only be able to judge them on their content and their timely release of it.

Maybe you're right. Maybe that's better. But it doesn't LOOK better.

True. If they did this, they should not announce it or make a public issue because, as you said, it would look like they are abandoning their player base. However, I think they need subtly establish new PR rules. This would also encourage premium membership by giving them a special forum for their opinions.

[Kaemon]

LakeDaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Good point but founders received the content promised and received their name in the founders list. To my knowledge they were not promised any special access to unlimited dev interaction. Founders received what they were promised. The Founders tag doesnt entitle them anything more. Ongoing Premium membership should be encouraged rather than a one time content purchase 2+ years ago.

Dude, you know as well as I do it was an entirely different deal during CB, devs were everywhere, communication was abundant, and ideas were discussed about how to make the game great in somewhat detail.

It started to slip when something on PGI/IGP's side changed, the devs started to be more reticent, and timelines slipped and grab deals starting to invade like the clans.

That's when the great upheavals started, we got what we were promised that's true, but the implied way things were going to be was WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY different than what we got (and I suppose that's on us).

[RAM]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Rather, since the change of management, and the resulting diaspora of our active Reddit fans towards r/OutreachHPG and other Subreddits. r/mwo has essentially become an echo-chamber for those who have been banned from our services for repeated abusive behavior.

Stop the appeasement and make an example: ban Serious Table.


RAM
ELH

[Tannhauser Gate]

Kaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

alienates player base, creates a 'us vs. them' mentality, still leaves new players in the cesspool of unmoderateggon, and since the public only sees the dirtpoors site of the wall, leaves them with the same opinion of the game that we have now, that's it's a dumpster fire.

Honestly I don't see it helping, except for creating a floating island ( I think we have enough islands now).

I disagree. PGI needs to get out of the business of showing how they make their sausage. Disgruntites are using their own words, own attempts of constructive PR against them. Most other publicly-facing companies have much higher PR walls than PGI. MWO's dev model is especially open to criticism since it will always have some content in beta. Most players have the "if its launched it should be finished" mind set. Allowing premium members a forum would recreate a dialogue close to what we had during closed beta - more constructive, more supportive.

[Kaemon]

LakeDaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I disagree. PGI needs to get out of the business of showing how they make their sausage. Disgruntites are using their own words, own attempts of constructive PR against them. Most other publicly-facing companies have much higher PR walls than PGI. MWO's dev model is especially open to criticism since it will always have some content in beta. Most players have the "if its launched it should be finished" mind set. Allowing premium members a forum would recreate a dialogue close to what we had during closed beta - more constructive, more supportive.

Maybe they should stop waving their sausage around and release the damn urbie already!

There, I used urbie and sausage in the same sentence.

[Corbenik]

Bongfu, on 27 May 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

It's this kind of blindness to any kind of discussion that got us here in the first place. I was not defending the content on r/mwo. I was stating that Niko literally said, "r/mwo does not have any customers. We do not care about people who post there."

I am actively participate in both outreach and mwo on reddit. So does that mean that I don't matter to PGI? I am no one PGI should be concerned with?

As someone who has supported this game from the moment anyone was able, that attitude makes me lose any and all faith in this company.

No it means you are not a customer in there eyes and you don't matter only if you are one of those people that are toxic and banned, if you dont fall into the category then as long as you can be civil you have nothing to worry about.

[John Wolf]

Roadbeer, on 28 May 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

That would be great, but first someone has to acknowledge that they actually MADE a mistake. Doubling down and equivocating is not acknowledgment of a mistake, it's reinforcement of your position.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this statement Roadbeer. However, sometimes its hard for people to see the mistake. When faced with more ridicule and poor reactions a person may get defensive instead of review their position.

Perhaps in time things will take the right path and things will be sorted out. Cooler heads, and clear paths and all that..

[Eglar]

Saxie, on 28 May 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Anyone that tells me that r/MWO, after the changes in moderators, hasn't been a cesspool of negativity is out of their mind. That's the main reason I no longer go to that sub. One of the posters took Niko's post and wrote Niko hits it out of the park. .. I'd have to agree.

This.
And Nico is fairly accurate with his statement on /r/mwo. The way he handled this entire issue was a bit off though. Not because he wanted to "exclude" certain individuals but rather because he's fed the trolls.

Spoiler

[Tannhauser Gate]

Kaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Dude, you know as well as I do it was an entirely different deal during CB, devs were everywhere, communication was abundant, and ideas were discussed about how to make the game great in somewhat detail.

It started to slip when something on PGI/IGP's side changed, the devs started to be more reticent, and timelines slipped and grab deals starting to invade like the clans.

That's when the great upheavals started, we got what we were promised that's true, but the implied way things were going to be was WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY different than what we got (and I suppose that's on us).

Yes, the change in PGI's communication during CB happened when they finalized their dev plan. Previously, they were very open to discussion, opinions, ideas etc.. until they reached the point where the plan was established and those ideas where no longer needed so they were left without replies. That said, yes there was an iron curtain that fell sometime between then and when 3PV was implemented. PGI has admitted fault, we called them on it, they have worked on better communication.

Now, they need to have an official way to field comments and feedback rather than being hammered in open forums by every alt and griefer in the community. They need a forum similar to CB and premium membership fits the bill imo. It would establish ground rules that are absolutely lacking right now.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 28 May 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Kaemon]

LakeDaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

However, they need to have an official way to field comments and feedback rather than being hammered in open forums by every alt and griefer in the community.

Wait, in open forums, or in another site that's notorious for tearing sites apart?

I see no issue in moderation here being tilted slightly in their own favor, but trying to imply that will on r/* is an exercise in hilariousness that will serve no purpose other than allowing overtime cards to be punched.

They don't need a forum simlar to CB, they need to police these forums and enforce the ToS like they are expected to do.

(sorry if that came out like a shot at the mods, it's not, it's a policy that needs tweaking, not knee-jerking which seems to be the path we travel here more times than not).

Edited by Kaemon, 28 May 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

LakeDaemon, on 28 May 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

It would establish ground rules that are absolutely lacking right now. yes?

Problem is, we already have ground rules on how to behave in the forum.


Having people pay for the privilege.... gives them a sense of entitlement beyond what they already have.
I agree with most of your points - but putting that behind a pay-wall only gives those people behind it the excuse to be elitist over everyone else.