263 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

Dr HaxZaw, on 11 June 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

I run an LRM60 stalker with tag, about 1400 ammo. I average 700-800 damage a game with about 4 kills with it. Its incredibly boring and easy unless the other team is running a lot of ecm in which case its just a bit of a hassle. I bought this mech purely so I could have a gauge on how OP LRMs are.

Now go out and get an assault mech without LRMs and try and match those stats and still end the game with 99% armour. Until that changes LRMs will remain OP in my book.

Can you post the stats from the stats page on your LRM Stalker? I'd love to see your 4 K/D and average damage per match stats.

[SoHxPaladin]

IraqiWalker, on 11 June 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Actually they wouldn't be viable, and would be reduced to weapons that are used at under 300 meters. Right now, they already require positioning, maneuvering and what you're describing is standard LRMs. Which we should have had in the game. Instead we have Streak LRMs. Honestly, the only people that keep complaining about LRMs are the ones that don't adapt to them, or learn to counter them.

Um, NO. I agree with you on the streak LRM's part, but the firing arc is horse crap. I can stand in cover and watch lrms come right over the top of said cover and rain death on me, oh and btw, I wasn't in the open, i was moving from cover to cover, or came around a corner to shoot n scoot, while the target decay keeps lock for insane amounts of time *it seems* and the arc finishes the craziness that is the currnet LRM system. The firing arc SHOULD be decreased to make it even more of a "skill" weapon. Any person with half a brain and attention span can get 300+ dmg with lrms on any med-assault mech. there is no full proof counter to them, since tag/narc nullifies ecm (like it should) and you cannot count on the puggies to carry ams or use ecm to help you.

Now, I am only referring to how pug matches are filled with LRMageddon and it seems terribly insane to fight without proper cover since these missles act like laser guided cruise missles at time (sometimes they literally are).

Oh, proper cover is something completely covering your top, like the garage on Crimson Strait.

Edited by SoHxPaladin, 12 June 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

SoHxPaladin, on 12 June 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Um, NO. I agree with you on the streak LRM's part, but the firing arc is horse crap. I can stand in cover and watch lrms come right over the top of said cover and rain death on me, oh and btw, I wasn't in the open, i was moving from cover to cover, or came around a corner to shoot n scoot, while the target decay keeps lock for insane amounts of time *it seems* and the arc finishes the craziness that is the currnet LRM system. The firing arc SHOULD be decreased to make it even more of a "skill" weapon. Any person with half a brain and attention span can get 300+ dmg with lrms on any med-assault mech. there is no full proof counter to them, since tag/narc nullifies ecm (like it should) and you cannot count on the puggies to carry ams or use ecm to help you.

Now, I am only referring to how pug matches are filled with LRMageddon and it seems terribly insane to fight without proper cover since these missles act like laser guided cruise missles at time (sometimes they literally are).

Oh, proper cover is something completely covering your top, like the garage on Crimson Strait.

Oh I misunderstood your post. I thought you wanted them to have no arc at all. Yeah, decreasing the arc a bit would be feasible. However, not by much, yes cover should help, but if the cover is about as tall as your mech, it shouldn't really help against LRMs.

[Cimarb]

spectralthundr, on 12 June 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Or just do the sensible thing, pay attention and if you see red smoke, move out of the drop path. Same thing with all the whining about LRM's, find some cover, outfit some AMS and don't stand out in the open to get lurm'ed to death.

If arty/air had a huge flashing and audible warning, I would agree with you. Currently, though, if an arty/air is popped under your feet, or to either side, or behind you, there is no absolutely no warning until the bombs start landing. It's not a learn2play issue in this case.

[Dragonslayerclan]

I do have a Question about the Clan mech HUD. I'm color blind and after a Mech is damaged (ether on my paper doll or my targets) I can not tell if there is a color change (the doll going from orange to red or what ever color). Is there a way I can fix this in a setting or something?

[IraqiWalker]

Dragonslayerclan, on 13 June 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I do have a Question about the Clan mech HUD. I'm color blind and after a Mech is damaged (ether on my paper doll or my targets) I can not tell if there is a color change (the doll going from orange to red or what ever color). Is there a way I can fix this in a setting or something?

Not that I know of. However, a user.cfg modification might exist somewhere. The internet can deliver an answer for this quesiton.

[Dr HaxZaw]

Quote

Can you post the stats from the stats page on your LRM Stalker? I'd love to see your 4 K/D and average damage per match stats.

I used to run it as an massive laser boat for the fun of it so the stats won't show the LRM damage as I've only played about 8-10 matches with the LRM loadout, after which i got bored and moved on

Lowering the arc of the LRMs would be a nice fix I agree with so far nothing has changed.

Edit: I'll throw up my weapon stats so you can have a look at the LRM15s with artemis, 21 games with 10,510 damage works out at pretty well spot on 500 damage per game. Now this is lower than my stalker boat courtesy of running LRM15s with artemis on one or two other mechs as a support weapon.

THIS IS WITH ONLY 33% OF MY SHOTS HITTING. ARE YOU STILL GOING TO SAY LRMS AREN'T OP????

Edited by Dr HaxZaw, 13 June 2014 - 08:07 PM.

[Cimarb]

LRMs aren't overpowered. Good job of sidestepping his request, though.

While our accuracy isn't quite the same, I would say I have a bit more experience with LRMs. I do quite well with them, but they are by no means overpowered, even in Pub matches.



BTW, I run 2xLRM15s and 2xLRM10s on both of my missile boats (BLR-1S and STK-5M), and when you add the damage per match together, I get 280+316= 595/match. Comparing some of the other weapons I have, Gauss has averaged me 428.54, ER LL has averaged 406.11, ASRM6 has averaged 429.76, UAC5 464.82, and the AC20 has averaged a lovely 1129. That 1129 may seem like a lot, but since I have only used it in one single match since the reset, I don't think that really counts...

Anyways, here are my stats. I don't see a whole lot of issue with LRMs, since that is a ton of weight compared to some of the more efficient weapons:

[Dr HaxZaw]

Quote

LRMs aren't overpowered. Good job of sidestepping his request, though.

Your right cause i totally couldnt fudge them up and post them if i really wanted to back myself up.

LRMs are doing the most damage of any weapon per game and are the easiest things in the world to use. Thats my issue with them

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Dr HaxZaw, on 13 June 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

... snip ...

OK, so you're averaging about 500 damage per match with ALRM 15 (not including back up weapons) ... definitely doesn't suck ...

Compare that to your U-AC/5 stats, though ... also about 500 damage per match.

They're both good weapon systems, but not without risks when boated ... I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your stalker is 4x ALRM-15, and your U-AC/5 'mechs are running 3 of them (either a JM6 or an Ilya).

All three builds have pretty serious vulnerabilities (namely, taking out the correct side torso on the JM6 or CTF, or any side torso on a LRM-60 STK). You obviously know how to play those 'mechs, but against players who (1) can aim and (2) can exploit those weaknesses consistently, they're definitely not OP.

[Kaldor]

Still hitting the softballs out of the park I see... Its almost like like getting a medal in the Special Olympics when your not "special". /golfclap for the guys at NGNG?

I am happy to see they are working on hit detection. SRMs have been broken for far too long. MM still needs a ton of work. 4X3 is a step in the right direction, but only encourages meta or the tier 1 mechs at each weight class. Consumables like airstrike and arty contributing too much to matches? No way, didnt see that coming.

And why is this "Ask the Devs"? They arent being asked anything... NGNG: heres a few questions the "vocal minority" would like answers to.

Why is the game still saddled with a bad/broken heat system that is overly complex and penalizes players? Ghost heat, low dissipation, huge heat cap and minimal penalties for over heating

What are they doing to combat the complete direct meta that this game as turned to? SRM fix will help, but is not the complete answer.

Why are they not looking at balancing some the oversized mechs that are obviously suffering because they have a poor armor to size to speed ratio? Most mediums and some heavies Im looking at you.

Why is UI 2.0 still a pile that requires a 100 clicks to get one thing done? Why cant we do something as simple as locate where all our equipped and unequipped gear such as engines and modules are? Why do we need to see every single piece of gear, even the stuff we dont own, when we try to assemble a mech? Why can it not be as simple as what Smurfy has on a website?

When will we get real info about community warfare? How will it function? Will the players have control? Will units actually have a role?

When will we get the ability to play with our friends in groups larger than 4? I think most units would be more than ecstatic with group sizes set at 8 max.

Just because the "silent majority" doesnt want or care to know the answers to these questions, doesnt mean they dont need to be addressed with more than an offhand comment and potentially fixed.

Thats all for now...

Edited by Kaldor, 13 June 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[Cimarb]

Dr HaxZaw, on 13 June 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Your right cause i totally couldnt fudge them up and post them if i really wanted to back myself up.

LRMs are doing the most damage of any weapon per game and are the easiest things in the world to use. Thats my issue with them

I'm not sure what your point with the fudging is. My point is your sample size is very small. For instance, you have the same number of matches as me with AC20s (1). Your accuracy is actually higher than mine (61.11% vs. 68%), yet my per match number dwarfs yours (1129 vs. 378, respectively) because I fired almost four times as many rounds (90 vs. 25) during that one match.

Here is a comparison of four weapon systems, showing the amount of damage per trigger pull ("fired" stat):

ALRM5

yours: 0.29 (x5=1.457)

mine: 0.315 (x5=1.574)

LRM15

yours: 0.365 (x15=5.475)

mine: 0.388 (x15=5.82)

AC20

yours: 15.12

mine: 12.54

UAC5

yours: 2.668

mine: 3.080

If LRMs were overpowered, they would be doing similar damage to other weapons of comparable damage output. An ALRM5 should have the same damage per trigger as a UAC5, since they both do a potential 5 damage, but based upon our numbers, an ALRM5 is doing roughly HALF of the damage of a UAC5.

[IraqiWalker]

Dr HaxZaw, on 13 June 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

LRMs are doing the most damage of any weapon per game and are the easiest things in the world to use. Thats my issue with them

But that is so flawed. The LRMs are doing inflataed damage amounts but have one of the weakest kill potentials of any weaopn in the game. (other than Flamer). They spread their damage way too much. If you give me an AC5 and I get to deal 900 damage with it. I will have killed almost the entire enemy team. compated to LRMs which will deal lots of damage, ALL OVER THE PLACE. An atlas has 618 points of armor on it. With LRMs I'll deal it 300 or so damage before I can hope to kill it. With ACs, or Lasers, I'd be able to kill it with half that damage.

[Cimarb]

IraqiWalker, on 13 June 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

But that is so flawed. The LRMs are doing inflataed damage amounts but have one of the weakest kill potentials of any weaopn in the game. (other than Flamer). They spread their damage way too much. If you give me an AC5 and I get to deal 900 damage with it. I will have killed almost the entire enemy team. compated to LRMs which will deal lots of damage, ALL OVER THE PLACE. An atlas has 618 points of armor on it. With LRMs I'll deal it 300 or so damage before I can hope to kill it. With ACs, or Lasers, I'd be able to kill it with half that damage.

Look at my numbers, though. They AREN'T doing inflated damage numbers per trigger. You can just equip so much ammo - and actually go through it all - that you can get a large amount of damage per match. Otherwise you are spot on.

[Kilo 40]

Kaldor, on 13 June 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Still hitting the softballs out of the park I see... Its almost like like getting a medal in the Special Olympics when your not "special". /golfclap for the guys at NGNG?

I am happy to see they are working on hit detection. SRMs have been broken for far too long. MM still needs a ton of work. 4X3 is a step in the right direction, but only encourages meta or the tier 1 mechs at each weight class. Consumables like airstrike and arty contributing too much to matches? No way, didnt see that coming.

And why is this "Ask the Devs"? They arent being asked anything... NGNG: heres a few questions the "vocal minority" would like answers to.

Why is the game still saddled with a bad/broken heat system that is overly complex and penalizes players? Ghost heat, low dissipation, huge heat cap and minimal penalties for over heating

What are they doing to combat the complete direct meta that this game as turned to? SRM fix will help, but is not the complete answer.

Why are they not looking at balancing some the oversized mechs that are obviously suffering because they have a poor armor to size to speed ratio? Most mediums and some heavies Im looking at you.

Why is UI 2.0 still a pile that requires a 100 clicks to get one thing done? Why cant we do something as simple as locate where all our equipped and unequipped gear such as engines and modules are? Why do we need to see every single piece of gear, even the stuff we dont own, when we try to assemble a mech? Why can it not be as simple as what Smurfy has on a website?

When will we get real info about community warfare? How will it function? Will the players have control? Will units actually have a role?

When will we get the ability to play with our friends in groups larger than 4? I think most units would be more than ecstatic with group sizes set at 8 max.

Just because the "silent majority" doesnt want or care to know the answers to these questions, doesnt mean they dont need to be addressed with more than an offhand comment and potentially fixed.

Thats all for now...

[Dr HaxZaw]

Quote

They're both good weapon systems, but not without risks when boated ... I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your stalker is 4x ALRM-15, and your U-AC/5 'mechs are running 3 of them (either a JM6 or an Ilya).

Usually ran twins with various jager builds. Running 3 of one weapons annoys me as I like to go in a scale of twos lol. Only mech I have that is current runnins UAC5s is a banshee build with 2 AC2s and 2 UAC5s purely for the fun of running a dakka mech now that AC2s are dead.

Quote

OK, so you're averaging about 500 damage per match with ALRM 15 (not including back up weapons) ... definitely doesn't suck ...

Running back up weapons would defeat my point that LRM boats are OP. So I dont run backup weapons to give myself some sort of challenge otherwise its too easy.

Quote

All three builds have pretty serious vulnerabilities (namely, taking out the correct side torso on the JM6 or CTF, or any side torso on a LRM-60 STK). You obviously know how to play those 'mechs, but against players who (1) can aim and (2) can exploit those weaknesses consistently, they're definitely not OP.

Thats why I dont hate on the AC/PPC build. Take the banshee: kill its right torso and all of a sudden its low armour level for an assault bites it in the arse. My issue with LRMs is that while they are useless below 200m beyond 200m they do far to much damage for how hard they are to aim and that the amount of headshake they create makes it impossible to aim well enough to take bits of a mech apart.

Quote

I'm not sure what your point with the fudging is. My point is your sample size is very small. For instance, you have the same number of matches as me with AC20s (1). Your accuracy is actually higher than mine (61.11% vs. 68%), yet my per match number dwarfs yours (1129 vs. 378, respectively) because I fired almost four times as many rounds (90 vs. 25) during that one match.

Stats can prove what ever you want to a certain extent. A good comparison is looking at the gauss vs ALRM15. The gauss has a similar damage per game but to do that it requires double the accuracy to achieve that. Point about skill levels each weapon requires is only being shown up more and more. But these developers clearly are reading different stats and playing a different game.

Quote

But that is so flawed. The LRMs are doing inflataed damage amounts but have one of the weakest kill potentials of any weaopn in the game. (other than Flamer). They spread their damage way too much. If you give me an AC5 and I get to deal 900 damage with it. I will have killed almost the entire enemy team. compated to LRMs which will deal lots of damage, ALL OVER THE PLACE. An atlas has 618 points of armor on it. With LRMs I'll deal it 300 or so damage before I can hope to kill it. With ACs, or Lasers, I'd be able to kill it with half that damage.

You do realise that positions affects which part of the mech your LRMs will hit. I get a lot of kills with LRMs by simply timing shots so that my LRMs are consistently hitting the centre torso. If a mech has no front armour and lots of rear armour I simply wait till I've got a good chance of hitting his frontal area before launching. It's really not that hard, same thing with any ammo weapon its about getting a bang for your buck. The thing is if we get 1 or 2 kills up I just dump LRMs on everything because if I get all my ammo out before I die we have a very good chance that any of the laser or ac weapons will be able to quickly get through any armour left on a mech.

Edited by Dr HaxZaw, 13 June 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[Kaldor]

Kilo 40, on 13 June 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

/removedstupidgif

Typical response from a player who never played this game when there was some semblance of balance who thinks they are clever. Keep allowing them to make a 1 dimensional game, and even you will get tired of it eventually.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Kaldor, on 14 June 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Typical response from a player who never played this game when there was some semblance of balance who thinks they are clever. Keep allowing them to make a 1 dimensional game, and even you will get tired of it eventually.

You can not still be talking about this game Quineg?

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 14 June 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Kaldor]

BLOOD WOLF, on 14 June 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

You can not still be talking about this game Quineg?

At one point in time, in closed beta, the game was much better balanced than what we have now.

We had long range fire in the form of people running gauss builds. LRMs were viable because there wasnt a bunch of hard counters against them. Brawling was alive and well because SRMs, while somewhat inaccurate beyond 150m, could deliver that knockout punch in a brawl.

Now we have a FLD direct fire Meta that we have been playing in for over a year now. SRMs are borderline worthless still as they dont really do enough damage and hit reg is still sketchy. LRMs are simply OK, but are shut down far too easy with a bunch of hard counters, namely a broken implementation of ECM first and foremost.

Tell me, which would you prefer? Ill vote closed beta play. In spite of the bugs we had, it was still more fun.

[Cimarb]

Kaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

At one point in time, in closed beta, the game was much better balanced than what we have now.

We had long range fire in the form of people running gauss builds. LRMs were viable because there wasnt a bunch of hard counters against them. Brawling was alive and well because SRMs, while somewhat inaccurate beyond 150m, could deliver that knockout punch in a brawl.

Now we have a FLD direct fire Meta that we have been playing in for over a year now. SRMs are borderline worthless still as they dont really do enough damage and hit reg is still sketchy. LRMs are simply OK, but are shut down far too easy with a bunch of hard counters, namely a broken implementation of ECM first and foremost.

Tell me, which would you prefer? Ill vote closed beta play. In spite of the bugs we had, it was still more fun.

Based upon your "now" paragraph, I would assume you haven't played the Public Test to see how things will play starting June 17th. You may want to check it out this afternoon.