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Dev Vlog #4


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#221 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:54 PM

Same broken mechanics. A fresh coat of paint on a POS is still a POS.

See below quote:

Quote

Still hitting the softballs out of the park I see... Its almost like like getting a medal in the Special Olympics when your not "special". /golfclap for the guys at NGNG?

I am happy to see they are working on hit detection. SRMs have been broken for far too long. MM still needs a ton of work. 4X3 is a step in the right direction, but only encourages meta or the tier 1 mechs at each weight class. Consumables like airstrike and arty contributing too much to matches? No way, didnt see that coming.

And why is this "Ask the Devs"? They arent being asked anything... NGNG: heres a few questions the "vocal minority" would like answers to.

Why is the game still saddled with a bad/broken heat system that is overly complex and penalizes players? Ghost heat, low dissipation, huge heat cap and minimal penalties for over heating

What are they doing to combat the complete direct meta that this game as turned to? SRM fix will help, but is not the complete answer.

Why are they not looking at balancing some the oversized mechs that are obviously suffering because they have a poor armor to size to speed ratio? Most mediums and some heavies Im looking at you.

Why is UI 2.0 still a pile that requires a 100 clicks to get one thing done? Why cant we do something as simple as locate where all our equipped and unequipped gear such as engines and modules are? Why do we need to see every single piece of gear, even the stuff we dont own, when we try to assemble a mech? Why can it not be as simple as what Smurfy has on a website?

When will we get real info about community warfare? How will it function? Will the players have control? Will units actually have a role?

When will we get the ability to play with our friends in groups larger than 4? I think most units would be more than ecstatic with group sizes set at 8 max.

Just because the "silent majority" doesnt want or care to know the answers to these questions, doesnt mean they dont need to be addressed with more than an offhand comment and potentially fixed.

Thats all for now...


Until they actually fix the base issues of the game, it will never change

#222 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:02 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Same broken mechanics. A fresh coat of paint on a POS is still a POS.

See below quote:



Until they actually fix the base issues of the game, it will never change

Same broken mechanics, what are you going on about? They just fixed SRMS and they are Awsome, plus they put weapons in line. All you got left is CW and some promise years ago, let it be and give them a chance. They are working on it, so give them a break,

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 15 June 2014 - 02:05 PM.


#223 IraqiWalker

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:51 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Same broken mechanics. A fresh coat of paint on a POS is still a POS.

See below quote:



Until they actually fix the base issues of the game, it will never change


Ok, I'm going to have to ask you to actually go play the game, because you clearly haven't played in months. Even three weeks ago, the SRMs were doing just fine. With the new weapon implementations and what's coming on June 17th. The game is going to be great. Seriously, stop whining and repeating statements that aren't that true anymore.

The one broken mechanic we have in this game is instant convergence, and coolant flush. So two. Other than that, everything else is either in a good place, or is getting tweaked and will be in a good place.

#224 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Until they actually fix the base issues of the game what I think is important, it I will never change

Fixed that for you ...

I actually agree with most of your points, but ...

Ghost heat is here to stay ... I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Combatting the meta directly ... apparently they don't believe that PPCs on their own are the culprit, but rather the minimal risk / maximum reward provided when using them in combination with ACs (or Gauss), cover, and jump jets. They've nerfed ACs repeatedly, added a skill mechanic to Gauss, can't really nerf cover, and are adding more skill mechanics (heat and damage) to jump jets. What more do you really want to know? With the recent SRM buff, and a whole slew of new concerns with Clan Weapons, things are going to get interesting very quickly.

Balancing oversized 'mechs ... I agree that about half of the 'mechs released before about December 2013 need to be looked at for hit boxes, size scaling, and quirks. However, be careful what you wish for ... given the same relative dimensions and density, compare a box that holds 100 tons of water (2m x 5m x 10m) to one that holds 25 tons of water (approx 1.26m x 3.15m x 6.3m) ... do you really want a Commando that is 63% the height of an Atlas? But, that doesn't answer your question "Why are they not looking into this?" ... I'm guessing it's because they were focusing on Clan 'mechs. And, for a while, the game balance focus will remain on clan 'mechs.

U.I. 2.0 ... yeah, still needs work.

Community Warfare ... my advice, enjoy the game we have right now, but they have said several times that CW is the "next big thing" (now that Clan 'mechs are out). Hopefully, they don't let marketing drive development (again) and try to sell us something else until CW is at least started.

Groups of more than four ... Karl has hinted that design is investigating.

You do have some valid concerns, but when you start your post with insults and fill it with hyperbole (and more insults), it detracts from the message.

Edited for grammar, spelling and other early-morning posting issues.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 15 June 2014 - 07:40 PM.


#225 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:30 PM

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Fixed that for you ...


You didnt fix anything to be honest. You are projecting your opinion into my sentence.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ghost heat is here to stay ... I don't like it, but I can live with it.


Ghost heat is a bad, broken, complex mechanic, that never combated what it was supposed to. It actually made the game worse on alot of levels. The entire heat system needs an overhaul to a more dynamic system system that doesn't penalize builds that require damage over time such as almost all real brawler types.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Combatting the meta directly ... apparently they don't believe that PPCs on their own are the culprit, but rather the minimal risk / maximum reward provided when using them in combination with ACs (or Gauss), cover, and jump jets. They've nerfed ACs repeatedly, added a skill mechanic to Gauss, can't really nerf cover, and are adding more skill mechanics (heat and damage) to jump jets. What more do you really want to know? With the recent SRM buff, and a whole slew of new concerns with Clan Weapons, things are going to get interesting very quickly.


Precisely, PPCs and the direct fire, low risk, high reward of them is the problem. They are the one thing that hasnt changed since the current FLD Direct Fire meta started. It is their lack of foresight, and the will to actually make a big change that has allowed these shenanigans to go on as long as they have. We really have to see if Clan weapons are balanced as its way too early to tell. This is a golden opportunity for PGI to actually do something right, and maybe turn this around. They just need to reach out and seize it.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Balancing oversized 'mechs ... I agree that about half of the 'mechs released before about December 2013 need to be looked at for hit boxes, size scaling, and quirks. However, be careful what you wish for ... given the same relative dimensions and density, compare a box that holds 100 tons of water (2m x 5m x 10m) to one that holds 25 tons of water (approx 1.26m x 3.15m x 6.3m) ... do you really want a Commando that is 63% the height of an Atlas? But, that doesn't answer your question "Why are they not looking into this?" ... I'm guessing it's because they were focusing on Clan 'mechs. And, for a while, the game balance focus will remain on clan 'mechs.


Mech scaling cannot be balanced via volume. This is an FPS so smaller targets are harder to hit, harder to hit increases TTL/TTK, which is logical. They need to pick an absolute upper and lower limit, and scale appropriately. Armor - Speed - Size/Scale are the 3 things that determine a mechs survivability. You cannot really modify armor anymore, speed is kind of set in stone, so that leaves scale as the only thing to be modified. Find images and tell me that a Cent with 338 armor which is almost as big as an Atlas that carries 614 armor is OK? Ive made this comparison across a dozen mechs, numerous times for PGI.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

U.I. 2.0 ... yeah, still needs work.


Thats not the half of it...

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Community Warfare ... my advice, enjoy the game we have right now, but they have said several times that CW is the "next big thing" (now that Clan 'mechs are out). Hopefully, they don't let marketing drive development (again) and try to sell us something else until CW is at least started.


CW has been the next big thing for the last 18 months. If they derp around with it, and dont actually let the players have some involvement, getting houses and their units heavily involved, it will fall on its face. Its it turns into something where they just look at how many matches each faction player won across general drops, in other words, the same crap we have now, except with a carrot, it will be bad.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Groups of more than four ... Karl has hinted that design is investigating.


This alone would be a great change as it would bring back a part of the player base that was hit the hardest by 4 man, which is house and units. Units have been together in Mechwarrior for years. They have outlived multiple titles. PGI needs to bring their focus back on to them, not the casual player with a 15 minute attention span. They are the people that will deliver success to them on a silver platter, not catering to the "CoD kiddies" with daddies credit card.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 15 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

You do have some valid concerns, but when you start your post with insults and fill it with hyperbole (and more insults), it detracts from the message.


My tone is warranted. Ive seen this game go from something with real promise, to a shadow of what it was in closed beta. Ive seen the devs go from openly communicating on a regular basis, to ignoring concerns that players brought up 2 years ago that now have bit them in the ass.

I still hold out some hope. I play from time to time. The game is progressing. However, they are trying to build solid systems on top of bad systems. You can build the nicest house in the world, but if the foundation is crap, what happens?

#226 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:37 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 15 June 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:


Ok, I'm going to have to ask you to actually go play the game, because you clearly haven't played in months. Even three weeks ago, the SRMs were doing just fine. With the new weapon implementations and what's coming on June 17th. The game is going to be great. Seriously, stop whining and repeating statements that aren't that true anymore.

The one broken mechanic we have in this game is instant convergence, and coolant flush. So two. Other than that, everything else is either in a good place, or is getting tweaked and will be in a good place.


I play regularly enough to keep tabs on whats going on, what works, and what doesnt. SRMs are still not what they should be. They need to be the absolute knockout punch for a brawler mech. They are not. Ive tested several mediums (Hunch SP, Cent, SHawk) trying to get to a place where I feel they are effective, and they are not. I keep an eye on what the top players are doing. Are they boating SRMs? Nope. They choose the most effective weapon for the job. SRMs are not it.

I will agree with you, instant convergence and as an extension of that, arm lock, is bad. Coolant flush was added as a bandaid for a bad heat system. Its been proven how fail the heat system is in this game a 1000 times over.

#227 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:46 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 15 June 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Same broken mechanics, what are you going on about? They just fixed SRMS and they are Awsome, plus they put weapons in line. All you got left is CW and some promise years ago, let it be and give them a chance. They are working on it, so give them a break,


Blood, you will always be the PGI white knight I guess. Hundreds of people have proven you wrong on these forums time and time again, but you continue to stumble around, spouting nonsense like its the gospel. Please stop.

To address the foolishness of you post. SRMs are not fixed. Please read my last post to IraqiWalker stating my opinion. Maybe in your little world they are good, and if your happy with that, good for you.

The weapon adjustments are fine in and of themselves and are probably warranted. I think the AC changes would have been better adjusted using a different falloff curve, and 3x range, but hey, its a start. The root of the issue still needs to be addressed, and PPCs are the true culprit in this case. They are the only thing that is a constant in the meta for the last 18+ months. This coupled with instant weapon convergence, arm lock, and a massive heat cap, have created this monster that players warned them about 2 years ago in closed beta.

I give no breaks just FYI, and if you want, "come at me bro", I can do this all day.

#228 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:04 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:


Blood, you will always be the PGI white knight I guess. Hundreds of people have proven you wrong on these forums time and time again, but you continue to stumble around, spouting nonsense like its the gospel. Please stop.

To address the foolishness of you post. SRMs are not fixed. Please read my last post to IraqiWalker stating my opinion. Maybe in your little world they are good, and if your happy with that, good for you.

The weapon adjustments are fine in and of themselves and are probably warranted. I think the AC changes would have been better adjusted using a different falloff curve, and 3x range, but hey, its a start. The root of the issue still needs to be addressed, and PPCs are the true culprit in this case. They are the only thing that is a constant in the meta for the last 18+ months. This coupled with instant weapon convergence, arm lock, and a massive heat cap, have created this monster that players warned them about 2 years ago in closed beta.

I give no breaks just FYI, and if you want, "come at me bro", I can do this all day.

I was in the PTS. I RAN QUAD SRMS 6's. damage was above 600 every time and i was never short on kills. Maybe it is because i play the game before i start throwing around complaints.

I do not need to refer to another post, anyone that participated In the Last test will say the same thing. There wasnt a meta build i could not get through in my timberwolf. Even the 6x Ac/5 Dire wolf is not as menacing as people make it out to be.

By calling me a white knight you are just insulting everyone who doesn't thing the game still has these major issues some of which a purely subjective. There are plenty of people like me already argued against the nonsense your viewpoint has from a past perspective such as closed Beta. The game had no balance, of course your gonna dislike it when the game limits what you can do but it was for the best. None of those problems i felt were an issue when i was testing. There are still problems with the game and nothing is perfect but it is a better game then what you are making it out to be.

PPC's were not even a problem, I was using every weapon effectively and PPC's fit well with AC's. Sure more tweaking is necessary but i never had a major issue. Most of the time i was using 2XEr large, 2xER Med, 2mch guns, and a med pulse. I was able to stand up to every mech. Sure i did not win all of the time but i was not short on kills. Heat was not a problem, I was never overheating unless i meant to do it.

The only boating issue was LRMS, At the same time every mech is capable of running Ams. NO one was running AMS as much as a team needs to

Poptarts are still nonsense to me, I do not get why people do it. In the end you are still exposing yourself, and a good pilot can pick you when popping up.

You are very welcome to come prove me wrong when the next patch hits, Take a meta mech, and try to beat me in Zellbriggen. I welcome the chance for a challenge. What better way to test than too go at it first hand.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 15 June 2014 - 10:29 PM.


#229 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:19 PM

One last thing...

If you think the game is good enough and is heading in the right direction, good for you. Myself, and very large portion of the community, do not.

When we seen what PGI originally came up with as their concept a few years back, I was excited, and that says alot as Im a very jaded old school gamer at 39 years old. Ive played every version of Mechwarrior starting back in 1992'ish. This looked to be something that rolled many of the very good concepts of the series into a unifying title. Where are we in comparison to that original concept and alot of original promises? Search your heart, and answer that question yourself. Im sure you know by now where I stand.

If you continue to alow PGI to make a very average FPS, never raising a hand in objection to where they are headed, dont be surprised when you are the only one left. People like me, the "vocal minority", want PGI to aspire to build something better, and we push for it. Just because we choose to voice our opinion doesnt make us wrong, or trolls, or whatever nickname you choose to give us. I want a game that can stand the test of time, something Id be willing to dump a portion of my large amount of expendable income into for years to come. Right now it is not that. Many other players just like me have either left or are watching from the outside to see what happen. If they can make it work, and it makes the grade so to speak, then kudos to them. Right now, they have a long ways to go, and their timetable is getting tighter and tighter as many other AAA games are simply taking their potential client base because they listen and interact with their community and follow their original vision.

Ask yourself: "Is it good enough? Or could it be better?"

#230 Kaldor

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:24 PM

View PostBLOOD WOLF, on 15 June 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

I was in the PTS. I RAN QUAD SRMS 6's. damage was above 600 every time and i was never short on kills. Maybe it is because i play the game before i start throwing around complaints.

I do not need to refer to another post, anyone that participated In the Last test will say the same thing. There wasnt a meta build i could not get through in my timberwolf. Even the 6x Ac/5 Dire wolf is not as menacing as people make it out to be.

By calling me a white knight you are just insulting everyone who doesn't thing the game still has these major issues some of which a purely subjective. There are plenty of people like me already argued against the nonsense your viewpoint has from a past perspective such as closed Beta. The game had no balance, of course your gonna dislike it when the game limits what you can do but it was for the best. None of those problems i felt were an issue when i was testing. There are still problems with the game and nothing is perfect but it is a better game then what you are making it out to be.


Obviously...

You sir are a genius. You will be the type to reap what you sow. Like I said before, if you think its good enough. Good for you.

You forget, I do play the game... Im just not at the level you are I guess and thats probably a good thing...

#231 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:44 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:


Obviously...

You sir are a genius. You will be the type to reap what you sow. Like I said before, if you think its good enough. Good for you.

You forget, I do play the game... Im just not at the level you are I guess and thats probably a good thing...

you are welcome to Hop in a game with me and you can see for yourself. I think the best way to see the problems one is facing Is to see it from their cockpit.

Also I am not saying their are no issues with the game but Gameplay is purely subject in relation to how a player feels it should be. To me the game felt fine and balanced when I was in the PTS, and i would like to hear from you again after the next 2 patches.

#232 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:49 PM

View PostKaldor, on 15 June 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

snip, because this is too long anyway

Thanks for the dialog.

Ghost Heat ... I think we agree more than we disagree on this, I've just accepted that this is the mechanic that was chosen to try and balance high-alpha builds, and accepted that it's probably not going to change anytime soon. It's too complex by an order of magnitude, barely documented or explained in the game, and I'm not even sure exactly what problem it's trying to solve.

FLD meta ... this was moderately bad about two years ago (gausscat) and started getting worse about a year ago (highlander) and really started to suck when ballistic HSR was fixed ... it has been frustrating that it is taking this long to get role balance right, and it is probably costing them customers, but I'm excited to see how the addition of clans, SRM hit reg, and a few other things impact the game. Assuming Neema's work to acheive the "Buckton Fix" has brought hit reg to a reliable level across all weapon systems, then we finally have a decent framework to start real weapon balancing.

'Mech Scaling ... again, I think we agree more than we disagree. I don't think the "oversized" 'mechs are that bad, but there are some 'mechs that are, due to their geometry, simply less survivable than others, and that's frustrating, especially to fans of those particular chassis.

PGI has proven over and over again that they can only deal with one "next big thing" at a time ... while CW should have been the "next big thing" for the past 18 months, it really wasn't. A year ago, it might have briefly been the "next big thing", but if the "State of the Inner Sphere" CC post from December '13 is any true indication, the actual "next big thing" was convincing MicroSoft that PGI should get an extension on the license.

About the same time, I think they had the realization that UI 1.0 wouldn't be able to handle CW ... so UI 2.0 was the most important "next big thing". But, a new UI desn't convince M$'s army of lawyers, budgeteers, and accountants of anything, so the Phoenix Packs and subsequently, the Clan Packs, got to the top of the list.

As a result, I think we got a "minimally viable product" for UI 2.0, we got Clan 'Mechs (which will probably be either the greatest thing to happen to the game since 12v12 or the biggest hot steaming mess since the last real LRM-pocalypse), and Community Warfare is finally, actually, the "next big thing" (assuming Clan 'mechs and weapon systems aren't completely AFU).

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Karl has done with the new match maker when it's released (on July 1st) ... 4x3 will be the best change to balanced and fun games since 12v12 ... and he mentioned "group size" in Dev Vlog #5 ... I sincerely hope he's talking about more than just four-per-group, because this will bring teams back together.

Whether you like the process or not, PGI is re-building an aircraft in flight. I play almost every day, and even though the game has problems, I'm still hopeful that PGI's vision can be realized in the next year or so. Nothing is moving as fast as anyone (especially PGI) has hoped, but I disagree with your assertion that the foundation is rotten ... it may not be what you expected or hoped for, but I think it is on the right track.

Again, thanks for the dialog, and I apologize for the snarky "FTFY".

#233 Cimarb

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:28 AM

I agree with Kageru pretty much 100%.

Kaldor, you really should have tried out the Public Test. PGI may have lots of issues still, but they hit it out of the park with Clans and the SRM fix.

#234 Kaldor

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 05:29 PM

View PostCimarb, on 16 June 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

I agree with Kageru pretty much 100%.

Kaldor, you really should have tried out the Public Test. PGI may have lots of issues still, but they hit it out of the park with Clans and the SRM fix.


I thought about it but playing the single Dad while the wife is away for 2 weeks for work has seriously cut into my time. Ive heard mixed reviews from guys that I know still play this game like a job. Time will tell. I am "cautiously optimistic" as that would be the best phrase I can put to it right now.

#235 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:39 PM

View PostKaldor, on 16 June 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:


I thought about it but playing the single Dad while the wife is away for 2 weeks for work has seriously cut into my time. Ive heard mixed reviews from guys that I know still play this game like a job. Time will tell. I am "cautiously optimistic" as that would be the best phrase I can put to it right now.

You were speaking as if you witnessed firsthand. Also would have been good to give both brief summaries of both sides of the reviews.

#236 Cimarb

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 05:33 AM

View PostKaldor, on 16 June 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:


I thought about it but playing the single Dad while the wife is away for 2 weeks for work has seriously cut into my time. Ive heard mixed reviews from guys that I know still play this game like a job. Time will tell. I am "cautiously optimistic" as that would be the best phrase I can put to it right now.

If someone feels like playing is a job, I wouldn't take anything they said to heart, because it's a game.

Don't be disheartened, regardless. PGI still has a long way to go, but they are at least fighting for our support finally, and that is what really matters. Good things on the horizon, so I'm very hopeful!

#237 KursedVixen

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 07:46 PM

So when can I use the polygon camo on my kitfox and direwolf configurations that aren't prime?

#238 CyclonerM

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:33 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 17 June 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

So when can I use the polygon camo on my kitfox and direwolf configurations that aren't prime?

I can use it on my Timberwolf C :)

#239 IraqiWalker

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:19 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 18 June 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

I can use it on my Timberwolf C :)

When the clan mechs were released the Kitfox and Direwolf couldn't put the Polygon camo on. Now they can, by the way. It was a problem with the redemption system. Got fixed quickly.

#240 Cimarb

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:38 AM

Is it on purpose that polygon is the ONLY other camo pattern? I wanted to put my Crusader camo on my Warden mechs :D





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