71 replies to this topic

[Alexandrix]

XX Sulla XX, on 28 May 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Kinda like nerfing the Victors so they were now second class at brawling but still worked fine as jump snipers. Yes it will not fix it but they are at least now looking in the correct area instad of nerfing mechs.

Don't get me wrong,i'm not disagree'ing with you.
Really this is pretty much my reaction to 90% of PGI's "balance" attempts -

[XX Sulla XX]

Ya I do hope they can get the balancing just right. I want jump sniping to have a place along with lrms and brawing etc etc. To be honest I am glad its not my job to come up with a perfect balance for the game haha.

[Khobai]

PPCs are the one weapon thats present in every single poptart build. So the logical thing to do is nerf PPCs.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Please. Cutting AC range to 2X will still make them prime sniping weapons coupled with PPCs. PGI is just ugh...

And let's talk about unnerfing Victors and Highlanders after we see how the nerfs will affect poptarting. This is coming from a meta DS owner.

Putting Victors on the same JJ rules as Highlanders means that they can both have their agility on the GROUND un-nerfed. They should try it. If Victors had 2T JJs and slower liftoff with less height per JJ, it solves the issue.

[Trauglodyte]

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OK it looks like they are working weopons balance finally to fix poptarting some. So now can you guys balance the Victors and Highlanders from over nerfing them before? Thanks

There isn't anything wrong with the Victor or Highlander. And the changes that were made were simply a fix to the JJ types and those changes were made for all JJ types, not just those used by the Victor and Highlander. The only thing that was mech specific was the turning/torso twisting speed and, quite frankly, that is fine. Prior to the fixes, it was rather difficult to keep the back of one of those mechs. Now, it is much more possible like it is with all other Assaults in and around their weights.

Not offense, Sulla, but it gets really old having people complain about mech tweaks when they were heads and shoulders above other mechs. For that matter, they're still phenomenal weapons platforms and are still better than the alternatives of the Awesome, Battlemaster, or Atlas.

[Ultimax]

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

There isn't anything wrong with the Victor or Highlander. And the changes that were made were simply a fix to the JJ types and those changes were made for all JJ types, not just those used by the Victor and Highlander. The only thing that was mech specific was the turning/torso twisting speed and, quite frankly, that is fine. Prior to the fixes, it was rather difficult to keep the back of one of those mechs. Now, it is much more possible like it is with all other Assaults in and around their weights.

It's not fine.

I run a 350 engine in my Boar's Head, and a 350 engine in my Victor.

They have the exact same torso twist speed.


One weighs 80 tons, and the other weighs 100 tons.
One has about 490 armor and the other has about 600 armor.

Why shouldn't the lighter one twist faster?

Why shouldn't it twist faster than the Battlemaster or even the Banshee?

There is nothing remotely fine about that.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[elitewolverine]

FupDup, on 28 May 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

The AC range isn't really causing the problems we see today. The real problem is that we can put huge volumes of damage/weapons into a single spot, in one big spike that rips holes in the heaviest of armor.

Shhhh, we need instant pixel i see what i hit no matter what my mech is doing.

They can fix so many bugs and issues with 3 very simple fixes, just 3, its not rocket science but pgi thinks so.

[Gyrok]

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

There isn't anything wrong with the Victor or Highlander. And the changes that were made were simply a fix to the JJ types and those changes were made for all JJ types, not just those used by the Victor and Highlander. The only thing that was mech specific was the turning/torso twisting speed and, quite frankly, that is fine. Prior to the fixes, it was rather difficult to keep the back of one of those mechs. Now, it is much more possible like it is with all other Assaults in and around their weights.

Not offense, Sulla, but it gets really old having people complain about mech tweaks when they were heads and shoulders above other mechs. For that matter, they're still phenomenal weapons platforms and are still better than the alternatives of the Awesome, Battlemaster, or Atlas.

Negative, torso twist and turning speed are the same as the Atlas on the Victor, and the arm movement is miniscule. Same engine Atlas and Victor, victor is faster in a straight line, they turn/twist the same amount.

[elitewolverine]

Ultimatum X, on 28 May 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

It's not fine.

I run a 350 engine in my Boar's Head, and a 350 engine in my Victor.

They have the exact same torso twist speed.


One weighs 80 tons, and the other weighs 100 tons.
One has about 490 armor and the other has about 600 armor.

Why shouldn't the lighter one twist faster?

Why shouldn't it twist faster than the Battlemaster or even the Banshee?

There is nothing remotely fine about that.

Not to mention my awesome can only get a 300 engine, i can stuff it full of HS and no matter how many i put 2 LL will fry my mech. My acceleration of a 80tonner makes it feel like the atlas had an overweight baby.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

There isn't anything wrong with the Victor or Highlander. And the changes that were made were simply a fix to the JJ types and those changes were made for all JJ types, not just those used by the Victor and Highlander. The only thing that was mech specific was the turning/torso twisting speed and, quite frankly, that is fine. Prior to the fixes, it was rather difficult to keep the back of one of those mechs. Now, it is much more possible like it is with all other Assaults in and around their weights.

It really is not fine. As was said they now turn and twist the same as the 100 ton atlas. But they are ment to be a fast and agile brawler (for assault) not a sluggish poptart. That is why they have close range brawling weopons on their standard loadout. The Victor was never ment to turn and twist like an Atlas.


The Victor approaches the concept of support in an unorthodox way for a 'Mech of its weight class. While only possessing a ground speed of 64.8 km/h, the Victor achieves a high degree of mobility instead through the use of four jump jets, allowing it to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. A Victor can therefore "support" friendly units by jumping directly into the fray and bringing its deadly close range arsenal to bear, an ability which can surprise inexperienced Mechwarriors and prove advantageous in mountainous terrain. One sacrifice made for this superb mobility is the 'Mech's relatively light armor of only eleven and a half tons, while the lack of proper anti-infantry capabilities is a minor problem. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor

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Not offense, Sulla, but it gets really old having people complain about mech tweaks when they were heads and shoulders above other mechs. For that matter, they're still phenomenal weapons platforms and are still better than the alternatives of the Awesome, Battlemaster, or Atlas.

No offense but you are wrong. They were nerfed in an ill advised way to fix something. Victors should be a great short range brawler with more speed and maneuverability than an Atlas but less armor. They should also turn a bit slower than cataphract. But in tonage they are closer to a cataphract than an Atlas. In other words they need to move like an 80 ton mech like they were originally intended.

[elitewolverine]

XX Sulla XX, on 28 May 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

It really is not fine. As was said they now turn and twist the same as the 100 ton atlas. But they are ment to be a fast and agile brawler (for assault) not a sluggish poptart. That is why they have close range brawling weopons on their standard loadout. The Victor was never ment to turn and twist like an Atlas.


The Victor approaches the concept of support in an unorthodox way for a 'Mech of its weight class. While only possessing a ground speed of 64.8 km/h, the Victor achieves a high degree of mobility instead through the use of four jump jets, allowing it to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. A Victor can therefore "support" friendly units by jumping directly into the fray and bringing its deadly close range arsenal to bear, an ability which can surprise inexperienced Mechwarriors and prove advantageous in mountainous terrain. One sacrifice made for this superb mobility is the 'Mech's relatively light armor of only eleven and a half tons, while the lack of proper anti-infantry capabilities is a minor problem. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor



No offense but you are wrong. They were nerfed in an ill advised way to fix something. Victors should be a great short range brawler with more speed and maneuverability than an Atlas but less armor. They should also turn a bit slower than cataphract. But in tonage they are closer to a cataphract than an Atlas. In other words they need to move like an 80 ton mech like they were originally intended.

Thumbs up.

You fix the underlying mechanics and other things will fix themselves. Poptarts would be balanced by longer recycle times and harder to hit penalties, like in the well CBT lol. You dont see 3/4 pilots poptarting around a TT map at extended range...why? Because a 3/4 pilot cannot make that shot. You mimic that here without gun nerfing and you have better pilots with skill poptarting.

You dont need to nerf, ppcs, ac's, lrms. You fix the mechanic as to why they were broken in the first place and the rest becomes mute. IMO that is.

Edited by elitewolverine, 28 May 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm fine with them being a good short ranged brawler. That was how they were designed. The problem is, and we all know this, that they're not being used as a short ranged brawler but rather as a jump sniper. You can't fix the problem based on the weapons that they carry so they were fixed based on how they're primarily used.

Look, I didn't like it but I still play my Victor just fine. They're more sluggish but I can get past that. I don't much like that they have the same twist rate as an Atlas and I've gone on record as saying that. But, people want them to go back to exactly how they were pre-nerf and that isn't good for the game. Period. If we didn't have perfect pin point damage, it might not be an issue. But, we do so we're stuck with how it is. I don't like PGI's approach but how do you fix the problem based on the problem without bringing us back to the original problem? And, more importantly, where do you stop? To make it more understandable, there is NO point in changing the nerf when people aren't playing the stock load outs. The second everyone starts running nothing but heavy ballistics and SRMs, PGI can look at it. But, even with the upcoming nerf to ACs, the meta is still going to be the Dragonslayer w/ PPCs and ACs.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 28 May 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I'm fine with them being a good short ranged brawler. That was how they were designed. The problem is, and we all know this, that they're not being used as a short ranged brawler but rather as a jump sniper. You can't fix the problem based on the weapons that they carry so they were fixed based on how they're primarily used.

They can be fixed in the way weopons work etc. And the mech nerf did not fix jump snipers. Victors still are the top choice for that.

Quote

Look, I didn't like it but I still play my Victor just fine. They're more sluggish but I can get past that. I don't much like that they have the same twist rate as an Atlas and I've gone on record as saying that. But, people want them to go back to exactly how they were pre-nerf and that isn't good for the game. Period. If we didn't have perfect pin point damage, it might not be an issue. But, we do so we're stuck with how it is. I don't like PGI's approach but how do you fix the problem based on the problem without bringing us back to the original problem? And, more importantly, where do you stop? To make it more understandable, there is NO point in changing the nerf when people aren't playing the stock load outs. The second everyone starts running nothing but heavy ballistics and SRMs, PGI can look at it. But, even with the upcoming nerf to ACs, the meta is still going to be the Dragonslayer w/ PPCs and ACs.

Where people want the turning is where it is logical for a mech that size. As stated what would probably be some place between what they had and what we have now. What they need to do is address pin point damage at range. Because even if they nerf jump jets into the ground you just end up with hill humpers with long range pinpoint alphas. Long range shots need to be less accurate and this can be done in several ways.

[Trauglodyte]

Like I said, I don't oppose a buff. They went heavy handed and it is always easy to pull it back. The original problem is that the added sluggishness to address the problem with the poptarting and the quick twitch capabilities. It is just a weird situation cause the mech isn't getting used as it should which means that those that are end up getting screwed. That leaves us with the issue of what are the ramifications of increasing the twitch stats on the current meta? Can you weaken it so that it isn't even more of the go to mech without hampering the AC/missile users? But, as you said, that is a weapon thing and not so much of a Victor thing. Sadly, they take forever to adjust weapons which is why we've had 12+ months of poptart silliness.

[Ultimax]

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

I'm fine with them being a good short ranged brawler. That was how they were designed. The problem is, and we all know this, that they're not being used as a short ranged brawler but rather as a jump sniper. You can't fix the problem based on the weapons that they carry so they were fixed based on how they're primarily used.

What actually changed about them jump sniping?


This was a nerf that inexplicably hurt Victor brawling and did nothing, literally nothing, to reign poptart builds in.

Don't know about you, but I still see plenty of VTR poptarts but I see nearly no VTR brawling builds of any kind (aside from trial 9S).

So I'm having a hard time grasping how this nerf had any kind of success.

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

But, even with the upcoming nerf to ACs, the meta is still going to be the Dragonslayer w/ PPCs and ACs.

The meta will always be driven by attempting to deal as much damage as possible while taking as little damage as possible in return.

It doesn't matter if you jackhammer nerf one or two chassis into the ground. Players will always find someway to play peek-a-boo and shoot the enemy.

There are about a half dozen other things the devs could do to reign this in, without inexplicably making the VTR chassis exclusively good at poptarting and mediocre to bad at basically anything else. Which is easily silliest result of the nerf.

[Eddrick]

Ultimatum X is a little off. From Smurfy Mechlab.

Victor-9S with 350 Engine stats: 78 kph with speed tweak. Turn speed 50.16 degrees a second. Torso Twist speed 74 degrees a second.
Boar's Head with 350 Engine Stats: 62.4 kph with speed tweak. 40.13 degrees a second. Torso Twist speed 70 degrees a second.

Two Mechs that move at similar speed will normally have similar agility (Regardless of weight difference). The Victor is still more agile then a Atlas is this case. It's just not as obvious, post nerf.

I have a ShadowHawk (255 Engine), Catapuilt (300 Engine), and BattleMaster (400 Engine). All have similar speed and agility. Because, they all move close to 80 kph (82-84 kph specifically).

[Trauglodyte]

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What actually changed about them jump sniping?


This was a nerf that inexplicably hurt Victor brawling and did nothing, literally nothing, to reign poptart builds in.

Don't know about you, but I still see plenty of VTR poptarts but I see nearly no VTR brawling builds of any kind (aside from trial 9S).

So I'm having a hard time grasping how this nerf had any kind of success.

Nothing really changed with jump sniping. Maybe I didn't word it right or you're not getting me. Regardless, the point of the nerf was based on the fact that both the Victor and Highlander were able to utilize the combination of JJs and a very good turning speed/torso twisting stats to keep targets in their frontal arc. There are a number of vids where a Light mech would try to get within a non-damage taking arc against a good piloted V/H and they were simply incapable of doing so. Essentially, the combination of the JJ and the pre-nerf stats made them too agile. Combine that with multiple PPCs/ACs and you had a wrecking ball of a mech with no down sides. THAT was the point of the nerf. PGI felt that they were able to bring too many weapons to bear on too nimble of a frame, especially considering the state of their Assault equals.

As for the meta, it will always exist whether it is a Monk in EQ, the stealther or life tapping Albion caster in DAoC, Rogue/Mage/Priest or Warlock/Druid/something in WOW, etc. As long as people are willing to take the time to test and push the limits of the game, the meta will exist. It is up to PGI to try to prevent mechs from being the meta simply because they combine the hard points and JJs.

And Eddick points out something very important. Agility is based on a formula of engine size and mech weight. Some of it will be identical (turning speed) regardless of the mech weight as long as all mechs are using the same size engine. Other stats will be similar as long as the ratio of engine to weight is similar. In the case of the Victor vs. Atlas, it isn't so much that they have the same turn speed stats/multipliers but rather that they use the same engine. And it isn't so much that they have the same/similar torso twist speeds but rather that you've got 100/320 and 80/320 which are very close (see Eddick's values). That still isn't to say that the Victor and Highlander don't need some of that nerf taken away, but rather that the math supports the differences.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 28 May 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 28 May 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

PPCs are the one weapon thats present in every single poptart build. So the logical thing to do is nerf PPCs.

What about dual gauss CTF-3Ds? They don't need PPCs to poptart.

Boom. Blew that one up for ya!!

[Ultimax]

Eddrick, on 28 May 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Ultimatum X is a little off. From Smurfy Mechlab.

Victor-9S with 350 Engine stats: 78 kph with speed tweak. Turn speed 50.16 degrees a second. Torso Twist speed 74 degrees a second.
Boar's Head with 350 Engine Stats: 62.4 kph with speed tweak. 40.13 degrees a second. Torso Twist speed 70 degrees a second.

Torso Yaw Speed = Torso Twist Speed




Here's more:

Battlemaster with 300, not 350 = 70 degrees per second
Battlemaster with 350 = 82 degrees per second

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[Ultimax]

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Nothing really changed with jump sniping. Maybe I didn't word it right or you're not getting me. Regardless, the point of the nerf was based on the fact that both the Victor and Highlander were able to utilize the combination of JJs and a very good turning speed/torso twisting stats to keep targets in their frontal arc. There are a number of vids where a Light mech would try to get within a non-damage taking arc against a good piloted V/H and they were simply incapable of doing so. Essentially, the combination of the JJ and the pre-nerf stats made them too agile.

My issues with this is that

1) The Victor at least is supposed to be agile. As of right now, it's most just faster than "some" other assaults in a straight line.
2) The ability to turn mid-air with JJs was separately nerfed, without much time between that and a separate VTR chassis nerf (to test the JJ nerf)

The VTR chassis didn't have some special twisting mechanism, it works off of the exact same formula as other mechs.

So all of those mechs can twist faster right now, using a variety of engine sizes.

The main issue was probably JJs, but we can't test it as the chassis was also nerfed.

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

And Eddick points out something very important. Agility is based on a formula of engine size and mech weight. Some of it will be identical (turning speed) regardless of the mech weight as long as all mechs are using the same size engine. Other stats will be similar as long as the ratio of engine to weight is similar. In the case of the Victor vs. Atlas, it isn't so much that they have the same turn speed stats/multipliers but rather that they use the same engine. And it isn't so much that they have the same/similar torso twist speeds but rather that you've got 100/320 and 80/320 which are very close (see Eddick's values). That still isn't to say that the Victor and Highlander don't need some of that nerf taken away, but rather that the math supports the differences.

If you put the same size engine into other assaults, their torso twist speed goes much higher.

Even the awesome with a 300 engine has better twisting speed than the VTR does with a 350. They are both 80 ton mechs.

The VTR with a 350 has the same torso twist speed as the BLR with a 300. That's a 5 ton advantage for the BLR.

BNC with 335 has the same torso twist speed as the VTR does with a 350.


Torso twist speed is based off of a simple calculation:

Twist Speed = 20 * Engine / Tons


Calculate the VTR at 100 tons, and you get it's current torso twist speeds. That's a 20 ton penalty.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


EDIT:

Just to keep things in perspective, we are about to have a 75 ton mech, with a 375 XL, JJs, customizable omni-pods, lighter LB ACs, etc. dumped on us.

Holding onto to the VTR nerf in the face of this is just laughably silly.

20 * 375 / 75 = 100 degrees per second, with a linear speed of nearly 90kph.


Could they nerf it? Yeah I guess. Good luck seeing that nerf inside of 6 months after people plopped down hundreds of dollars on a clan pack.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 May 2014 - 08:45 PM.