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Weapon Balance Changes - What Are They? - Feedback


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#301 Nightmare1

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:22 AM

View Postmoso, on 02 June 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:


I know that, but TT isn't MW and vice versa. :P There are so many departures from canons in each MW that seems like it's better to think about game balance. Current situation is that MWO have to be more casual, that other games in series. F2P games have to be widely available or everything they get at the end will be financial collapse. It's sad for fans (I can name myself a moderate fan - first MW experience had with the MW2, and read some books from BT universe when was a teenager), but that's the way the todays materialistic world wags.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one weapon in MWO doesn't offend more than LRMs. It's a pleasure to watch (being already dead <_<) someone who have interesting build and uses all his weapons adding some imagination and quickness. Attacking one mech with LRMs, while shooting ballistics at two other mech at the same time and buging out to cool down and then attack previously noticed mech to it's critically damaged parts... Or anything like that, tons of situations that inspire youself to play better.

And then you watch the last LRM boat hiding in bushes for 3 minutes to be eventually mocked by one-legged light. :unsure: Or watch the same boat, standing dull and pressing one or two buttons to attack mech that he even doesn't see (and sometimes LRM boat don't see any enemy mech until the victorious end of the match). He even haven't to know the map - if the damage is done, he sees reddening of his crosshair.

To gain a better understanding of my point, I don't make light of talented LRM boaters. When you see such you definitely couldn't be mistaken. But current balance allows to use LRM boats as no one other build you can - without any decent skill. That down-grades good skills of people. My point is - LRM boats are great if using them requires high skills, as concerns any other weapon in the game.

...And do something with the flamer please. :) It's so beautiful and so underrated.


I wasn't referencing TT. :)

I agree generally, but I don't think LRMs are as much an issue as people make them out to be. Sure, there is a match every four or so where there are multiple boats, but, by and large, I don't see that many anymore. Usually there are two or fewer in each of my matches.

...Of course, it may be that my ELO bracket is such that I'm in that situation where most of us prefer non-LRM Mechs. It may be interesting to make a second account and start-over, just to see what the experience is like nowadays. They may still be an issue at the newb end of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that LRM boaters higher up the ELO chain should be punished though.

Frankly, I think a nerf to LRM angle of descent would be enough to counter the LRM problems we face (It would improve the viability of our cover). A new chaff module would also be nice - trigger it for a 30 second, LRM-free zone around your Mech (disrupts lock temporarily).

Yes! Buff the flamers! Make them viable! :)

#302 Grimm Peaper

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:


It's like that picture - just don't line up or group together. Play smart, and you won't get hit. :P



It's not about having arty or airstrikes in the game or why they are in game, it's WHO has them, i.e. those who don't care about c-bills or $$. Paying for a tactical advantage is p2w. You are paying to help you win. How can you call it anything else? It may not guarantee a win but it is an undeniable advantage that is bought.


View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Rage much bro? <_<


Think much bro?

View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

I well understand the concept of P2W - I've been on the losing end of that before. Your exaggerations might be humorous if they weren't so...pathetic. You would really compare arty strikes to murder and P2W to genocide? Even as an exaggeration, that's pretty extreme and quite revolting.


Wow, such a logical well thought out response. Instead of giving some stunning feat of logic or intellectual retort as to why I am wrong, he simply calls my response "pathetic". Bravo, young man, bravo, you totally missed the whole point.

I'm done arguing with you though, as it's gone beyond debate and moved into "I can't think of a logical retort, so I'll just call them some bad word". Reply all you want, I won't be reading this anymore. The higher you go in elo the more you see arty/airstrikes. The fact that you admit you don't see it much speaks of the level of your elo. The quality of your posts speaks about the rest.

Edited by Grimm Peaper, 02 June 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#303 Nightmare1

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:56 AM

View PostGrimm Peaper, on 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:



It's not about having arty or airstrikes in the game or why they are in game, it's WHO has them, i.e. those who don't care about c-bills or $$. Paying for a tactical advantage is p2w. You are paying to help you win. How can you call it anything else? It may not guarantee a win but it is an undeniable advantage that is bought.


Well, by that logic, purchasing better/more expensive BattleMechs for C-bills could also be considered P2W. Point is, the option is on the table for everyone. P2W is when you spend MC on a strike; spending C-bills is F2P.

Sure it's an advantage - that's why they sell. You seem to be worked up about a non-issue.

View PostGrimm Peaper, on 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Think much bro?


Wow, really?

View PostGrimm Peaper, on 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Wow, such a logical well thought out response. Instead of giving some stunning feat of logic or intellectual retort as to why I am wrong, he simply calls my response "pathetic". Bravo, young man, bravo, you totally missed the whole point.

I'm done arguing with you though, as it's gone beyond debate and moved into "I can't think of a logical retort, so I'll just call them some bad word". Reply all you want, I won't be reading this anymore. The higher you go in elo the more you see arty/airstrikes. The fact that you admit you don't see it much speaks of the level of your elo. The quality of your posts speaks about the rest.


Well, at least I'm not throwing mud. :P

The sad/funny thing is, you're the one that's upset. I've maintained my cool while you jumped feet first into the "rage poster" stereotype. <_<

What bad word? Seriously, don't make such generalized statements if you can't back them up.

What level elo are you? How do you know that you see them the higher you go? Qualify that.

As for arguing, I'm not trying to - just debate and converse. You continue to become more and more agitated with each post, to the point where you are now posting a string of generalized statements and insults and then rage-quitting a discussion (if not the whole thread). That's actually kinda funny.

#304 Thrudvangar

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:06 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:


I'm a very good HBK pilot who knows how to run the Mech, although I appreciate your effort to educate me. :P

What I was driving at, is that you often find yourself in a less-than-ideal situation. When that happens, being able to hit someone at 500 meters, and deal damage, is very advantageous when you are seeking to close, find better cover, etc. Now that the Brawler HBK's range will be reduced so drastically, it will be regulated to hunkering with its head-down until the end of the match when the enemy team pushes forward to roll the HBK's team, or when there are few enough Mechs for it to come out of cover without getting ripped asunder by PPCs, Gauss, LL's, LRMs, etc.

I have multiple HBKs with a variety of builds. Some are being buffed by this patch, like my 4P. Some are getting buffed and nerfed simultaneously like my GI and 4H. My overall contention is that the AC/20-packing HBKs are already at enough of a disadvantage that they don't need this nerf. The AC/20 forces them to sacrifice substantial speed to pack the weapon, so they can't close quickly if caught in the open (that is one of the counters to the brawler HBK - outmaneuver and shred it before it can close to range).

What I predict, is an exodus from the AC/20 HBK Brawler field and more AC/5 builds if people keep their 4G's and 4H's. Otherwise, we will see them start to vanish until only the other variants are often seen.



...I heard about you - you're whining is legendary! Haven't had the misfortune to drop in game with you yet (fortunately!) though. <_<

Just fyi, since you clearly don't know much about MechWarrior: The ability to boat and build whatever you want on your Mech is a cornerstone to the game since it's inception. The MechWarrior game series has always had this in it (haven't played TT, so I can't speak for it). Furthermore, canonically, the books often featured boats and pop-tarters.

Learn to deal with it. Sure, it's no fun to get rained on by an LRM boat, but that probably means you weren't using cover effectively. Sure, it's no fun to get boomed by a Boom Jager, but that probably means you weren't cognizant of your surroundings, or you charged down his throat. PPC and Gauss snipers are difficult to counter, but again, proper use of cover can foil them until you can close to range.

Each Mech build has its own advantages and disadvantages. Simply because you are not good at reading the sensor data to determine those factors and then decide how to fight that enemy does not mean that the game should be bent out of whack into something unrecognizable.

Non-UAC's jam? No way!
Increase the tonnage per JJ? Doesn't make any sort of logical sense...
Lights boating lasers? Well, they're too light to fit AC/20's (except that one Raven...) so you should be thankful!
9 ML HBK? Sure, but he has to deal with the heat load and be able to pilot effectively - there are downsides!
Alpha as last ditch effort? Sure, but a good pilot can also use it as a starter to drive a wedge into enemy armor - learn to use it yourself.
Decrease damage and add armor? Not canonical bud - get used to it. You can't take over a dozen years of precedent (game-wise, not counting the books) and turn it on its head.
Max of 2 MPL fired before Ghost Heat? That's already in the game bud.
1 LL...PPC...Double heat? Also in-game already.
LRM chainfire...etc. Not canonical and really ridiculous. I can't stand LRM boaters but, love 'em or hate 'em, your demand is really unreasonable!
MGs are good as they are - buy the range extension module if you need extra (I did - it was worth it!)



You sire don't know about BattleTech in any way... i've read books and played the tabletop and also the computergames since i was 12 and that was a looooong time ago, Please don't show me what kind of idiot you are, thanks.

i've NEVER read, and/or played a book/tabletop/PC Game where boating and poptarting was shown/written.... Boating Except for Thunderbolt (and with boating i dont mean 2 weapons of one kind).

i'm also not talking about any other mechwarrior game, i'm talking about MWO, if you understand.. and this game is too fast, the damage is too high and ppl only rely on less than a handfull mechs and their loadout (you're one of those, i bet) and THIS cannot be. This game turns into a counterstrike like **** or whatever first person shooter all the kids like to play (also you).

About the armor thing.. about what BT/MW universe you're talking about "canon".... think about it. If you wanna play "canon"wise, you'll be one of the first idiots who scream that they're getting killed so fast.... If this game was canon-like. I wish it is but it is clearly not.

where in the world do Larger Lasers and PPC have double the heat when fired 2 of them at once? where.... i dont see that ingame...

about the medium (PULSE) laser.. : http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#weapon_beam

check this out mr. knoweverything.... normal medium lasers getting heat penalties when ONLY shot 7 or more at one time.. ridiculous.. medium pulse lasers dont even have that. Lager Lasers and PPC at 3 btw...

ah damn i wrote back to this ****. i should know better that this game gets worse every day.

just make it a little slower and it makes more fun to play, i'm tired about getting one alpha after another with 40+ damage to lose an arm or torso or leg instant. thats my point, i'm out.

right now this game is for snipers and LRM *****, nothing between and you have a large disadvantage when you dont play the meta **** (what i refuse to play) period!

Edited by Enzlaved, 02 June 2014 - 11:16 AM.


#305 Heffay

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:51 AM

View PostEnzlaved, on 02 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

i've NEVER read, and/or played a ...PC Game where boating and poptarting was shown/written.... Boating Except for Thunderbolt (and with boating i dont mean 2 weapons of one kind).


:P

#306 Thrudvangar

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:56 AM

Posted Image

so much for MWO right now

Edited by Enzlaved, 02 June 2014 - 11:57 AM.


#307 Nightmare1

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostEnzlaved, on 02 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:



You sire don't know about BattleTech in any way... i've read books and played the tabletop and also the computergames since i was 12 and that was a looooong time ago, Please don't show me what kind of idiot you are, thanks.

i've NEVER read, and/or played a book/tabletop/PC Game where boating and poptarting was shown/written.... Boating Except for Thunderbolt (and with boating i dont mean 2 weapons of one kind).

i'm also not talking about any other mechwarrior game, i'm talking about MWO, if you understand.. and this game is too fast, the damage is too high and ppl only rely on less than a handfull mechs and their loadout (you're one of those, i bet) and THIS cannot be. This game turns into a counterstrike like **** or whatever first person shooter all the kids like to play (also you).

About the armor thing.. about what BT/MW universe you're talking about "canon".... think about it. If you wanna play "canon"wise, you'll be one of the first idiots who scream that they're getting killed so fast.... If this game was canon-like. I wish it is but it is clearly not.

where in the world do Larger Lasers and PPC have double the heat when fired 2 of them at once? where.... i dont see that ingame...

about the medium (PULSE) laser.. : http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#weapon_beam

check this out mr. knoweverything.... normal medium lasers getting heat penalties when ONLY shot 7 or more at one time.. ridiculous.. medium pulse lasers dont even have that. Lager Lasers and PPC at 3 btw...

ah damn i wrote back to this ****. i should know better that this game gets worse every day.

just make it a little slower and it makes more fun to play, i'm tired about getting one alpha after another with 40+ damage to lose an arm or torso or leg instant. thats my point, i'm out.

right now this game is for snipers and LRM *****, nothing between and you have a large disadvantage when you dont play the meta **** (what i refuse to play) period!


Wow, rage much? :P

...You're pretty rabid there. I've heard about you from other pilots before - funny to see that what they say is true! If you're going to rage-whine, at least try to sound half-way intelligent and take time to fix your typos.

I don't mind you referring to me as "Sire" though. You may kneel. <_<

View PostHeffay, on 02 June 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:


:)


I know, right? He's apparently never heard of the Archer or any other Mechs of its type. :unsure:

View PostEnzlaved, on 02 June 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Posted Image

so much for MWO right now


Assuming that you are actually correct. The rest of us have no way of verifying this.

I do know that I can still consistently accrue 600+ damage with 3 or 4 kills without using PPCs, LRMs, or ACs. That makes it hard for me to believe that they are broken or OP right now.

You just have to fight smart.

Anyways, enough with all that. I thought it might be entertaining to debate you for a little bit, but your hostility and naivety take the fun out of it. :)

#308 BlackDrakon

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:41 PM

Almost 2 years with broken SRMs and now you say you are fixing them?

I'm about to cry....

Now, if you could just fix their trajectory, if they could go as they did like 2 years ago, with the circle grouping...that would be great.

I take any buff you can give to SRMs on their damage, so, I'm glad you are putting them at 2.2 per missile. We are almost there.

When are this changes taking effect??

#309 moso

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:



LRMs are not an issue until it allows to people witout skills to defeat people who have them quite easily. :P Of course this problem could be ignored, but each of the list of nerfed weapons require skill to use: 6xAC2 Jagers, 5-6xPPC Stalkers, Disco-machines with LL etc. While all described required steady aim and correct moving. Only LRMs allow to make heat-friendly builds, slow (though 8 of 10 LRM boat players use their mechs as mobile turrets and speed isn't necessary) but allowing to get 1-button wins. It's not fatal, but so supid.
And if it won't be an issue at all, no one will meet complaints on LRM boats instead of... Well, SRM boats? <_< Or MG boats? Or even ML boats. It's only LRMs all the time.

#310 Heffay

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:51 PM

View PostBlackDrakon, on 02 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

When are this changes taking effect??


Tomorrow.

#311 johntherussian

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:20 PM

THEY TOOK ERR JERBZ! "Insert obligatory rant about nerf and or buff". Nerf XL engines!

#312 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:27 PM

The autocannon nerfs again will only hamper people who use them in brawling configs. If you are going to hit the range on them, Buff the rate of fire back to what it was before and PLEASE buff the shell velocity of the ac10 to make it useful again.

Glad to see the SRMS me be fixed....and I guess the pulse laser buff will be nice, but I still wont use them. Unless they have a nice damage increase on the mediums or a much shorter duraton, they lose to medium lasers every time.

No word on the gauss rifle...

And no word on ghost heat....

View Postmoso, on 02 June 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:


LRMs are not an issue until it allows to people witout skills to defeat people who have them quite easily. :angry: Of course this problem could be ignored, but each of the list of nerfed weapons require skill to use: 6xAC2 Jagers, 5-6xPPC Stalkers, Disco-machines with LL etc. While all described required steady aim and correct moving. Only LRMs allow to make heat-friendly builds, slow (though 8 of 10 LRM boat players use their mechs as mobile turrets and speed isn't necessary) but allowing to get 1-button wins. It's not fatal, but so supid.
And if it won't be an issue at all, no one will meet complaints on LRM boats instead of... Well, SRM boats? ;) Or MG boats? Or even ML boats. It's only LRMs all the time.



There is a difference between LRM boating and Fire support. Most lrm boats i see dont even have support weapons. I dont even like running an lrm mech without at least 4 medium lasers, and supporting streaks or srms if possible. I dont hide out near the edge of the map, im usually just outside the brawl, picking the freshest, biggest mech and letting him have it. Dont lump me with those glorified turrets.

#313 moso

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:59 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:




Exactly what I mean in the post #300. :angry:
And as I said before it is more common to see other type of LRM users - strict LRM boats, awkward slowly moving box carriers full of thousands of rockets, and the only other weapon you can see there is a TAG. Best of them install a TAG (or even two, though didn't see three at once ;)), but most of them don't see any enemy mech by own eyes by the end of the victorious match.

I say over and over again but to my way of thinking it's an example of a bad game balance when non-skilled person could have good results using certain type of weapon.
I can't image that you can download the game never playing any of MW games before, take any ballistic or energy weapons and have good results. But current situation allows that while using LRMs.
This equalizes good players who use LRMs and those who are off game.

Drawing a crude analogy - it's possible to bring auto-aim in the game (bad, bad idea!). Guns&Lasers (need to patent as a name of rock band) will stick automatically to a CT when you match some circle of a decent size with a mech and you can push mouse button. That won't make great players weak, they still will be better than average and novice. But it will weaken difference between them for sure.

Evading an issue of playing against LRM boats but thinking about own experience. I tried to play LRM boat before as an experiment (one of the reasons of my average K\D ratio - I don't like to play for result, I prefer fun and variety without feeling that I'm working), and had found that it's not challenging enough. 'Piano' builds with LRMs = results vary, fun enough. LRM boat = steady effective, boring.

So I'm not a LRM-hater. But at that moment LRMs aren't... Hardcore enough. ;) Too casual in use for such hardcore fundamental, and coupled with a strange-working matchmaker in PUGs even discouragingly sometimes.

Edited by moso, 02 June 2014 - 09:03 PM.


#314 Chavette

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 02:29 AM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 28 May 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:


I've seen this thrown around a few times now so let me respond to it.

There are a total of 9 different builds of MWO on my machine... all at varying stages of completion of new features.

In 7 of these specialized builds, I can turn on specific debug tools that allow me to see exactly what's happening in the game simulation which is something you will never be able to determine in production (live build). I can also dynamically tune things as the game is running in these builds which is also something that is impossible to do on the live servers.

I do play the game, just not on production where I don't have the tools that let me see exactly what's going on in the game engine. Plus I do randomly play now and then on production and I do spectate players quite a bit when I'm not at work.

And remember, PGI is not a huge company where I sit in my office isolated from the team and just messing about doing this or that. I'm very hands on with the dev team and don't have a lot of time to head up features and play the game during the average workday.

So why don't you have a community manager that tells you just exactly that? How the game is getting played?

Edited by Chavette, 03 June 2014 - 02:30 AM.


#315 POOTYTANGASAUR

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 03:35 AM

Now un-nerf the gauss.

#316 QuaxDerBruchpilot

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:23 AM

View PostGrimm Peaper, on 02 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:



It's not about having arty or airstrikes in the game or why they are in game, it's WHO has them, i.e. those who don't care about c-bills or $$. Paying for a tactical advantage is p2w. You are paying to help you win. How can you call it anything else? It may not guarantee a win but it is an undeniable advantage that is bought.
.


So, get rid of all modules, too? Since they can be bought and offer an advantage. Sorry, but I think you happened to take the wrong turn in that topic :)

#317 Willothius

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:46 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 02 June 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Yes! Buff the flamers! Make them viable! :)


They aren't just weak, they are broken: check out the Youtube Video of a Stalker with one flamer dying from overheating..

It looks to me that flamers have a slight ( = major) error, code-wise.. Looks kinda similar to when you chain fire several AC2's and the heat starts to increase exponentially due to Ghost Heat.. But as far as I know, there shouldn't even be Ghost Heat for flamers, let alone for just ONE flamer..

Nikolai, need useful weapons feedback? Look into Flamers..

-EDIT: Here's a vid that shows it well:

-EDIT: And for personal taste: Range of MG's could get a slight boost ;)

Edited by Willothius, 03 June 2014 - 05:52 AM.


#318 JohnnyWayne

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:51 AM

Too lazy to read all this but did anyone propose that you could pulse lasers in an mg like laser system? With short cooldowns so that you can spam it (and according lower damage of course). Best way to handle these in my opinion.

#319 Wintersdark

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:35 AM

View PostWillothius, on 03 June 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:


They aren't just weak, they are broken: check out the Youtube Video of a Stalker with one flamer dying from overheating..

It looks to me that flamers have a slight ( = major) error, code-wise.. Looks kinda similar to when you chain fire several AC2's and the heat starts to increase exponentially due to Ghost Heat.. But as far as I know, there shouldn't even be Ghost Heat for flamers, let alone for just ONE flamer..

Nikolai, need useful weapons feedback? Look into Flamers..


This isn't a bug, sadly. This is how Flamers are supposed to work - it is, alas, a feature.

See, Flamers generate heat on a sliding scale: the longer they are fired, the more heat they generate. The reason they do this is to prevent a mech from just permanently "CCing" an enemy mech by holding flamers on them and eventually just melting them.

Now, the reason this is a flawed design?

Use two flamers. Put them in chainfire. You get a continuous flame output, but without the sliding scale! You can keep two flamers firing this way forever easily. Do you see lots of Twin Flamer mechs out there just wracking up the kills?

*peers about*

*crickets*

Exactly.

#320 FupDup

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:41 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 03 June 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

-
See, Flamers generate heat on a sliding scale: the longer they are fired, the more heat they generate. The reason they do this is to prevent a mech from just permanently "CCing" an enemy mech by holding flamers on them and eventually just melting them.
-

The 90% threshold rule for the guy getting shot already does that by itself. Once the target gets to 90% heat, he can't receive any more heat from Flamers.





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