203 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Danghen Woolf, on 21 November 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

That was what I was thinking but base armor ratings are calculated at 16/ton (standard armor) with modifiers based on types... Inner Sphere Ferro-Fiberous is x1.12 and Clan is x1.2 etc...

www.sarna.net/wiki/Barrier_Armor_Rating
Barrier armor rating.
All common BT vehicular weapons and most forms of armor in Battletech have a BAR of 10.

This "B.A.R." is what determines the protectiveness, penetrativeness, etc. of the armor. How much it protects against penetration and other factors.

"Basically any unit that is not built on an Armored Chassis hit by a weapon that inflicts more damage than its BAR will need to check for a critical hit, even if the weapon did not damage internal structure.[1] So a Silverfin coastal cutter (BAR 7) hit by a PPC blast will have to check to see if it sustains a critical hit as the artificial lightning leaks through a small gap in the armor plating."

"Heavy Industrial armor is functionally the same as BattleMech armor, with a stated BAR of 10.
Industrial armor also has a BAR of 10, but only offers 67% points per ton that Heavy Industrial armor does. Industrial armor is very similar to Primitive Armor used by the first BattleMechs.
Commercial armor offers 50% more protection per ton of weight, but only has a BAR of 5."

This unfortunately has a very limited coverage, and doesn't list weapons.

For example I read some time ago that 10 damage on a battlecruiser in space is either 100 or 1,000 damage against a battlemech whose BAR is far inferior, as well as the massive critical rolls necessary.

So I was wondering about a list if at all possible.
The basic concept sounds like if I have a BAR of 5, then taking 5 damage or more from a single weapon's attack would require me to check for a through-armor critical. So that might summarize weapons. But then I have about 16 types of armor and a number of chassis types just for mechs alone. Do I assume all except those that specifically say otherwise have a BAR of 10?
Then there's a number of different BARs for vehicles, some I seen with 12, some with 6, the Silverfish Cutter there says 7, and then there are some vehicles with a BAR of 1 (I'd hate to be in that).

Edited by Koniving, 21 November 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Koniving, on 21 November 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

www.sarna.net/wiki/Barrier_Armor_Rating
Barrier armor rating.
All common BT vehicular weapons and most forms of armor in Battletech have a BAR of 10.

This "B.A.R." is what determines the protectiveness, penetrativeness, etc. of the armor. How much it protects against penetration and other factors.

"Basically any unit that is not built on an Armored Chassis hit by a weapon that inflicts more damage than its BAR will need to check for a critical hit, even if the weapon did not damage internal structure.[1] So a Silverfin coastal cutter (BAR 7) hit by a PPC blast will have to check to see if it sustains a critical hit as the artificial lightning leaks through a small gap in the armor plating."

"Heavy Industrial armor is functionally the same as BattleMech armor, with a stated BAR of 10.
Industrial armor also has a BAR of 10, but only offers 67% points per ton that Heavy Industrial armor does. Industrial armor is very similar to Primitive Armor used by the first BattleMechs.
Commercial armor offers 50% more protection per ton of weight, but only has a BAR of 5."

This unfortunately has a very limited coverage, and doesn't list weapons.

For example I read some time ago that 10 damage on a battlecruiser in space is either 100 or 1,000 damage against a battlemech whose BAR is far inferior, as well as the massive critical rolls necessary.

So I was wondering about a list if at all possible.
The basic concept sounds like if I have a BAR of 5, then taking 5 damage or more from a single weapon's attack would require me to check for a through-armor critical. So that might summarize weapons. But then I have about 16 types of armor and a number of chassis types just for mechs alone. Do I assume all except those that specifically say otherwise have a BAR of 10?
Then there's a number of different BARs for vehicles, some I seen with 12, some with 6, the Silverfish Cutter there says 7, and then there are some vehicles with a BAR of 1 (I'd hate to be in that).

Capital weaponry deal 10 times the damage against standard mechs.

Basically if a capital weapon deals 40 capital damage, that's 400 damage in mech terms. Kinda gives you a scale of how massively destructive the BT capital ships can get.

[Nathan Foxbane]

BAR armor rating will take up to its rating in damage from a single weapon before having to check for through armor criticals (TACs). So BAR 5 will take a medium laser and not have to check for TACs no matter how many ML are hitting if it has the armor points to absorb the damage. But if it is hit by an MPL it will have to check for a TAC.

BAR 1 is little better than cold rolled steel plate. Just about anything other than Light MGs will cause TACs. I am not sure about how missiles work though. Do not know if the damage from the weapon is the number of missiles that hit or the damage from individual missiles themselves. I would think the former.

The least damaging capital weapon not part of the Sub-Capital class is the Barracuda missile and it does the same damage as an AC/20. A Heavy Naval Gauss Rifle will destroy any 'Mech in a single shot doing an absurd 300 damage. But it is what you get for firing 500 kilogram slugs.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 21 November 2014 - 09:53 PM.

[kosmos1214]

Koniving, on 21 November 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

www.sarna.net/wiki/Barrier_Armor_Rating
Barrier armor rating.
All common BT vehicular weapons and most forms of armor in Battletech have a BAR of 10.

This "B.A.R." is what determines the protectiveness, penetrativeness, etc. of the armor. How much it protects against penetration and other factors.

"Basically any unit that is not built on an Armored Chassis hit by a weapon that inflicts more damage than its BAR will need to check for a critical hit, even if the weapon did not damage internal structure.[1] So a Silverfin coastal cutter (BAR 7) hit by a PPC blast will have to check to see if it sustains a critical hit as the artificial lightning leaks through a small gap in the armor plating."

"Heavy Industrial armor is functionally the same as BattleMech armor, with a stated BAR of 10.
Industrial armor also has a BAR of 10, but only offers 67% points per ton that Heavy Industrial armor does. Industrial armor is very similar to Primitive Armor used by the first BattleMechs.
Commercial armor offers 50% more protection per ton of weight, but only has a BAR of 5."

This unfortunately has a very limited coverage, and doesn't list weapons.

For example I read some time ago that 10 damage on a battlecruiser in space is either 100 or 1,000 damage against a battlemech whose BAR is far inferior, as well as the massive critical rolls necessary.

So I was wondering about a list if at all possible.
The basic concept sounds like if I have a BAR of 5, then taking 5 damage or more from a single weapon's attack would require me to check for a through-armor critical. So that might summarize weapons. But then I have about 16 types of armor and a number of chassis types just for mechs alone. Do I assume all except those that specifically say otherwise have a BAR of 10?
Then there's a number of different BARs for vehicles, some I seen with 12, some with 6, the Silverfish Cutter there says 7, and then there are some vehicles with a BAR of 1 (I'd hate to be in that).

yah this is right from my under standing of bt B.A.R

IraqiWalker, on 21 November 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Capital weaponry deal 10 times the damage against standard mechs.

Basically if a capital weapon deals 40 capital damage, that's 400 damage in mech terms. Kinda gives you a scale of how massively destructive the BT capital ships can get.

Nathan Foxbane, on 21 November 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

BAR armor rating will take up to its rating in damage from a single weapon before having to check for through armor criticals (TACs). So BAR 5 will take a medium laser and not have to check for TACs no matter how many ML are hitting if it has the armor points to absorb the damage. But if it is hit by an MPL it will have to check for a TAC.

BAR 1 is little better than cold rolled steel plate. Just about anything other than Light MGs will cause TACs. I am not sure about how missiles work though. Do not know if the damage from the weapon is the number of missiles that hit or the damage from individual missiles themselves. I would think the former.

The least damaging capital weapon not part of the Sub-Capital class is the Barracuda missile and it does the same damage as an AC/20. A Heavy Naval Gauss Rifle will destroy any 'Mech in a single shot doing an absurd 300 damage. But it is what you get for firing 500 kilogram slugs.

and some mech dies yep you dont want to be hit by thoughts if you have any kind of choice

[Danghen Woolf]

IraqiWalker, on 21 November 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Capital weaponry deal 10 times the damage against standard mechs.

Basically if a capital weapon deals 40 capital damage, that's 400 damage in mech terms. Kinda gives you a scale of how massively destructive the BT capital ships can get.

And people still want orbital strikes as a consumable...

[Pht]

Not to mention that BT space warships easily carry multiples of weapons doing that kind of damage ... and they do splash damage across several hexes, so one shot won't just destroy (beyond any chance of repair or salvage) A mech ... it'll destroy *multiples.* If you want to be REALLY jerkish, point out that they hit from ABOVE, so use the "hit from above" table.

It's not "some mechs die" - it's "any that are in the AOE die." When the capitol class weapons start unloading on your battlefield, count yourself lucky if you get out with your skin intact.

For instance, a mckenna can bring every one of its *heavy* naval ppccs to bear onto a battlefield; that's I think either 16 or 24 heavy naval ppcs at 60 (600) damage a piece. A full broadside from a mickey with ALL of it's weapons is 505 (5,050) damage.

Splash is something like three hexes in all directions from the center of hit, from each weapon fired.

Edited by Pht, 24 November 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[kosmos1214]

Pht, on 24 November 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Not to mention that BT space warships easily carry multiples of weapons doing that kind of damage ... and they do splash damage across several hexes, so one shot won't just destroy (beyond any chance of repair or salvage) A mech ... it'll destroy *multiples.* If you want to be REALLY jerkish, point out that they hit from ABOVE, so use the "hit from above" table.

It's not "some mechs die" - it's "any that are in the AOE die." When the capitol class weapons start unloading on your battlefield, count yourself lucky if you get out with your skin intact.

For instance, a mckenna can bring every one of its *heavy* naval ppccs to bear onto a battlefield; that's I think either 16 or 24 heavy naval ppcs at 60 (600) damage a piece. A full broadside from a mickey with ALL of it's weapons is 505 (5,050) damage.

Splash is something like three hexes in all directions from the center of hit, from each weapon fired.

are you ready to die to some one who had the 9mil or so to burn on that it would suck

[Metus regem]

kosmos1214, on 26 November 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

are you ready to die to some one who had the 9mil or so to burn on that it would suck

They would have to be a clan pilot, as the clans are the only faction in game that has access to warships right now...

[IraqiWalker]

Metus regem, on 26 November 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

They would have to be a clan pilot, as the clans are the only faction in game that has access to warships right now...

Not really. all capital ships had capital weaponry, the warships just had more of everything, and were significantly tankier.

Even IS ships had capital waponry on them. So everyone would be getting these.

[Metus regem]

IraqiWalker, on 27 November 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Not really. all capital ships had capital weaponry, the warships just had more of everything, and were significantly tankier.

Even IS ships had capital waponry on them. So everyone would be getting these.

As far as I knew, the only warships or rather ships armed with capital class weapons, were in ComStar's hands, and when they finally owned up to having them all the major powers were like "WTF!?!?!"

[IraqiWalker]

Metus regem, on 27 November 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

As far as I knew, the only warships or rather ships armed with capital class weapons, were in ComStar's hands, and when they finally owned up to having them all the major powers were like "WTF!?!?!"

You are correct. I made the mistake of thinking that they all had capital weapons. Mostly Pocket warships did, and some of the combat jump and dropships had some capital weaponry.

[Risen]

Since I try to play TT at least once every 2 weeks I know really have to try out this MegaMek stuff!

While reading the combat logs I wonder about some rules, maybe you can clarify before I have to search my head off.

- Whats with the glancing blows and direct hits?

- Why do weapons have variable damage values (the Clan medium pulse lasers sometimes does 8 or 9 damage (and by TT rules it should be 7 anyway ^^))


After some testing I would really like to play a few matches, most likely Stock 3025-3039 era.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Risen, on 28 November 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Since I try to play TT at least once every 2 weeks I know really have to try out this MegaMek stuff!

While reading the combat logs I wonder about some rules, maybe you can clarify before I have to search my head off.

- Whats with the glancing blows and direct hits?

- Why do weapons have variable damage values (the Clan medium pulse lasers sometimes does 8 or 9 damage (and by TT rules it should be 7 anyway ^^))


After some testing I would really like to play a few matches, most likely Stock 3025-3039 era.

It is probably running using an advanced rules set (as I understand those are optional within the system itself). Easier use those rules when running software than in a table top game because of computation turn around times. The only things the players need to do using a program is make movement and attack decisions.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 28 November 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Koniving]

Risen, on 28 November 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Since I try to play TT at least once every 2 weeks I know really have to try out this MegaMek stuff!

While reading the combat logs I wonder about some rules, maybe you can clarify before I have to search my head off.

- Whats with the glancing blows and direct hits?

- Why do weapons have variable damage values (the Clan medium pulse lasers sometimes does 8 or 9 damage (and by TT rules it should be 7 anyway ^^))

After some testing I would really like to play a few matches, most likely Stock 3025-3039 era.

Advanced rulesets with a combination of Total Warfare, Tactical Operations, Strategic Operations, and rules from other sources (all able to be used or discarded by checking boxes). There are also some unofficial rules that could be used, such as all "autocannons can be used twice" though non-UACs have a higher chance of jams, as well as "unjamming" options.

I personally enjoy the Design Quirks, as unlike classic tabletop it can take into account the actual BT designs such as a mech with a low or high profile visage (body size and shape) will be easier or more difficult to hit, lore-friendly 'issues' (such as older Vindicators which are known for having difficult ejections due to the head-mounted laser will, in fact, have difficult ejections. Dragons, known for being difficult to knock over, are difficult to knock over. Etc.) Needs to be turned on though in order to function.
----
As for glancing and direct blows:
Consider that TT is a summary rather than a clear statement of events. For instance medium lasers are generically categorized as being 5 damage and 3 heat within a firing cycle

Spoiler

which for the Rassal Blue Beam is a single shot after a chargeup with a rediculously long cooldown time, incredible heat spike, bad cooling jacket, EM Interference, etc., but is essentially the medium laser most known for having front loaded damage and incredible accuracy to exist. It is most noteworthy for its blue-colored beam and distinct "Eeeeyuuu-wong" sound during the charge up.

However, while that model is super rare, the ever so common "Defiance B3M Medium Laser" is known for requiring 3 shots to deal 5 damage and upon the completion of those 3 shots, would generate 3 heat. (That is 1.67 [rounded] damage per shot on average and 1 heat per shot).

Some standard medium lasers require a greater number of shots. Some don't require so many. There are 44 truly unique models, and over 60 models in total of standard medium laser.

So as one can see, there can be a great variety in what they are and what they do, and none of it is truly encompassed into the tabletop game due to the overwhelming rules for every single variant and it has been stated that a TRO-style manual of just standard medium lasers would easily require between 300 and 500 pages to cover every single variant and sub-variant. Just the ML, not the IS and Clan ER ML, MPL, and Clan MPL. Scary, isn't it?

In an attempt to accommodate this variety, as well as to reflect concentrated fire or only partial hits (say that Defiance B3M only hit one and a half of those shots rather than all three on the same body part), we have the glancing and direct blows system. It still suffers BT's pinpoint issues (yes, compared to fluff BT, tabletop BT has horrendous pinpoint damage issues), but at least it introduces some variations to reflect a lot more than basic TT.

A direct blow demonstrates the effect of a hard, heavy or otherwise nearly perfect hit in which the conditions of that hit resulted in higher than typically rated damage. For example if you were to compare it to MWO, then imagine when you fire a laser and you get the entire beam's duration in exactly one spot you get bonus damage.

A glancing blow reflects a not so good hit. For example in MWO, when you fire a laser but you can only keep part of the beam duration on the target or it spreads out across the enemy too sloppily to register much damage.

You might also notice that during the Phoenix versus Clan fight, many of the Blackhawk (Nova)'s shots actually only did 3 damage with the ER MLs even with standard blows [4 with direct, 2 or less with glancing] and generated 1 heat. This is due to weapon mode selection, where you can change LRMs from direct fire (very accurate) to indirect fire (very inaccurate despite having a spotter;

Spoiler

unless the spotter has tag or something else, as supposedly the spotter who is without a C3 system is actually relaying the information by simple grid coordinate in the same way you'd say "Target is at grid coordinates Baker 03-57-90." "Roger that, aligning for coordinantes Baker 03-57-90." "Adjust for heading 325 degrees, speed 53.3 kph." "Adjustment confirmed." "Fire for effect." "Firing."

) as well as firing modes for PPCs to have field inhibitors on and off, and for lasers what you get is an optional power / duration / use setting. Full power for an ER ML is obviously 7 damage for 5 heat. But you can reduce it to 6 damage for 4 heat, 5 damage for 3 heat, etc. It will always generate "1" heat minimum however regardless of how low you set it.

Edited by Koniving, 29 November 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[kosmos1214]

yah this is why mechs in the tprg im makeing work so different from battle tech TT its do to looking at TTs problems and there are a lot of them at times when i read how TT works i cant help but think fasa dident know what the words "play testing" meant

[Metus regem]

kosmos1214, on 29 November 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

yah this is why mechs in the tprg im makeing work so different from battle tech TT its do to looking at TTs problems and there are a lot of them at times when i read how TT works i cant help but think fasa dident know what the words "play testing" meant

As much as I love the Clans, they are a great example of that.

[Pht]

Risen, on 28 November 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

- Whats with the glancing blows and direct hits?

"glancing blow" represents a shot that just barely, barely hits a target, and thus it "glances off."

These happen when you JUST make your to-hit roll. Say, if you needed a 7, and you only rolled a 7, your hit would be a glancing blow, and it also would only deal half damage.

"direct blow/hit" - supposed to imitate the "lucky/I'm obscenely GOOD" shots where you hit a weak spot.

I forget the exact roll, but I think it's a "margin of success" thing, where how much you go OVER your to-hit roll determines if you get a direct hit or not. If you get a direct hit, you shot does more damage. Personally, I don't really care for this rule.

Quote

- Why do weapons have variable damage values (the Clan medium pulse lasers sometimes does 8 or 9 damage (and by TT rules it should be 7 anyway ^^))

That's an advanced optional rule; making for more realistic energy weapons damage. Basically, if you're up close, you do more damage, if you're at mid range, you do rated damage, if you're way out, you do less damage.

Quote

After some testing I would really like to play a few matches, most likely Stock 3025-3039 era.

Be certain to familiarize yourself with the game rules in megamek. There is a rule setting for "what year" does your game take place, and if memory serves it will disallow all stuff that was added after that year.

Also check out the random army builder; in particualr in it the "unoffical" random army lists. They don't cover as many eras and wars as the offical lists, but they're actually more accurate fan work based random lists. That way you can build up a truly faction-specific era-specific force to play with.

Also, yes, MM is a LOT faster than tabletop, but you still might want to limit yourself to 4 v 4 to start with until you're comfortable using MM.

If you want to play the AI, when you get the game launched, "add a bot."

If you check out my pinned thread in the top of this forum it will give you information where to find megamek and some custom mech/vehicle building programs that will make mechs/vehicles/etc that work in MM.

The format that MM uses is *.mtf - you save them into your MM/data/mechfiles folder, and when you do delete the "cache" file, forcing MM to rescan the mechfiles folder so it will find your new unit.

Sometimes you will add a custom unit to MM and do this and MM won't allow it to be used in game; that's normally when you use hardware in your unit that MM isn't setup to use (yet). If you want to use the unit anyways, check the "allow invalid designs" option, and you should be able to use your unit. Beware, though, this will allow virtually ANYTHING to be used as far as custom units, so NEVER enable "allow invalid designs" when playing another human.

[kosmos1214]

Metus regem, on 29 November 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

As much as I love the Clans, they are a great example of that.

yah iv heard the storys of how the clans where to say the least OP and at times out and out broken and i know how you feel i like the clans to so you are not alone and ona side note any tips for geting megamek runing on windows 7 i tryed it once but it dident want to run


edit for spelling

Edited by kosmos1214, 30 November 2014 - 05:24 PM.

[Koniving]

kosmos1214, on 30 November 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

yah iv heard the storys of how the clans where to say the least OP and at times out and out broken and i know how you feel i like the clans to so you are not alone and ona side note any tips for geting megamek runing on windows 7 i tryed it once but it dident want to run

So far the only thing OP about the Clans is the Clan BAP in Double Blind rules. Just remember to close your distance in on Clan mechs and fight them up close; they are virtually helpless.

Far as megamek on Windows 7...
Simply run it. You will want to use the Windows version (there are 3 versions of Megamek. Windows, Mac and Linux), and it is java-script based so if you do not have any form of java-script installed you may need to acquire it.

Megamek is the game itself.
Megamek Lab is to build your own mechs or edit others.
Megamek HQ is the campaign center.

[kosmos1214]

ok thanks