127 replies to this topic

[BARBAR0SSA]

Karl Berg, on 02 June 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Sure, I'll throw this at design as a heads up. I'm reasonably certain design is looking into tabletop style heat changes and leg fall damage tuning to help reduce the amount of jump sniping though.

In regards to this about target loss and pop tarting.

Mawai, on 30 May 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:
<snip..>
I think he is absolutely right. It is hard enough already to fire at mechs that pop in and out of cover using jump jets and firing pinpoint direct damage weapons. Addition of this module would make them virtually immune to LRMs and immediate loss of targeting would make it difficult to tell whether they are moving to a new firing position or staying put. I am just wondering if this is an intended or unintended side effect of the design? Of course the module will benefit any mechs fleeing LRMs but I think it will help pop tarts more ..



REALLY hoping Karl was accurate in that.

Edited by shad0w4life, 04 June 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[FupDup]

The question is, what part of TT heat is he referring to? There are multiple different paths that could point to.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

FupDup, on 04 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

The question is, what part of TT heat is he referring to? There are multiple different paths that could point to.

One assumes on-the-fly heat penalties scaled based on heat %.

[3rdworld]

FupDup, on 04 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

The question is, what part of TT heat is he referring to? There are multiple different paths that could point to.

My guess is heat generation for JJs

[Fut]

FupDup, on 04 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

The question is, what part of TT heat is he referring to? There are multiple different paths that could point to.

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

[Fishhawk]

I would love to see them implement some sort of "Modifier to Fire" penalty for heat. I'm not sure about it mimicking the JJ shimmy-shake or maybe have the crosshairs enlarge or bend. It probably needs to be something relatively random so that you don't always know what it's going to do.
Of course, I would prefer them to remove Ghost Heat before they added this type of modifier.

[Eddrick]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

I hope they go that rought, too. However, people seem to misunderstand, that Heat Scale doesn't kick in till after you generate more Heat then what your Heat Sinks can handle. It happens at the end of the Turn in TT. I can generate 37.5 (45 if you count Heat Cap boost) Heat with 19 MWO DHS, with Elite Efficiencies, before that Heat Scale kicks in.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 June 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Would be nice if they fixed this BEFORE adding in the Clans...since I don't know...it'll mess up their balance entirely along with the IS.

[BARBAR0SSA]

I'll take the balance penalty and let it get worked on with a revamped heat scale that requires some heat management skills and variety builds for optimum mech damage output.

[General Taskeen]

He may be referring to heat build up when using Jump Jets in TT. Similar to MW:LL in that regard as well.

[Kaldor]

Fut, on 04 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

Lets hope they dont...

How will you effectively bring all these modifiers to the table without totally pissing everyone off?

Movement: Doable. -5% speed and acceleration per "movement point"?
Modifier to Fire: How? We dont roll dice. There are no CoF mechanics in game
Shutdown: Pretty much in place allready
Ammo Explosion: Yeah, because ammo explosions are so common anymore...


And yes, I understand they are used when you get above what your heat cap is.

[Damocles]

Kaldor, on 04 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Movement: Doable. -5% speed and acceleration per "movement point"?
Modifier to Fire: How? We dont roll dice. There are no CoF mechanics in game
Shutdown: Pretty much in place allready
Ammo Explosion: Yeah, because ammo explosions are so common anymore...

Speed: Yeah movement and acceleration could debuff, but also torso twist/pitch and arm movement should also be slowed. These penalties need to be real.
Fire Modifiier: Steam/heat/cockpit screen condensation aka: visibility problems.
-
Ammo explosions: yeah make them more common or disruptive. You dont have to change the damage numbers but if your cockpit is shook/jostled/rumbled significantly, than this will be something that you don't want to experience in combat.

Edited by Damocles, 04 June 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Kaldor, on 04 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Lets hope they dont...

How will you effectively bring all these modifiers to the table without totally pissing everyone off?

Movement: Doable. -5% speed and acceleration per "movement point"?
Modifier to Fire: How? We dont roll dice. There are no CoF mechanics in game
Shutdown: Pretty much in place allready
Ammo Explosion: Yeah, because ammo explosions are so common anymore...

And yes, I understand they are used when you get above what your heat cap is.

Modifier to fire could easily be done via the reticle bounce of jump jets or 3rd person. Or you could have it create sort of a heat haze/fog to make it harder to see.

The fact that people don't worry about running out of ammo is a good reason to add an ammo explosion modifier.

I'd also make damage happen at 90%.

And the movement modifier could even be something like limiting twist speed.

[Khobai]

Quote

Lets hope that it's something along these lines:

Adding heatscale penalties punishes ALL mechs, not just poptarts though. If all mechs are punished the same as poptarts it still doesnt fix poptarts. The only way to fix poptarts is to reduce pinpoint damage; without pinpoint damage poptarting is no longer effective.

Quote

How will you effectively bring all these modifiers to the table without totally pissing everyone off?

You do it exactly like tabletop. Your heatsinks would give you a buffer zone that you can safely overheat in. But if you exceed that buffer zone you start experiencing penalties.

So for example if you have 20 DHS, your buffer zone would be 20*2 = 40. So for the first 40 heat you would experience no penalties. But from 41-70 you would start experiencing heat penalties based on the 30 heat scale. So 45 heat would be like 5 heat on the scale, 50 heat would be like 10 heat on the scale, 70 heat heat be like 30 heat on the scale, etc...

Since Battletech uses 10 second turns, every 10 seconds the game would check your heat, and apply or remove the corresponding penalties based on your current heat level. These penalties would last for 10 seconds until the next "heat check" and if youre still over the heat threshold during the heat check it would reapply the penalties for another 10 seconds.

That copies the battletech heatscale almost identically.

Edited by Khobai, 04 June 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Damocles]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

No thanks. Adding heatscale penalties punishes ALL mechs, not just poptarts. If all mechs are punished the same as poptarts it still doesnt fix poptarts.

And if one of these heatscale penalties (maybe movement) also affected a chance to fall when landing JJs, maybe that would provide some fix for poptarting without entirely removing the playstyle. (Assuming certain builds are very heat-heavy and would realistically reach these penalties)

[BARBAR0SSA]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Adding heatscale penalties punishes ALL mechs, not just poptarts though. If all mechs are punished the same as poptarts it still doesnt fix poptarts. The only way to fix poptarts is to reduce pinpoint damage; without pinpoint damage poptarting is no longer effective.



You do it like tabletop. Your heatsinks would give you a buffer zone that you can safely overheat in. But if you exceed that buffer zone you start experiencing penalties.

So for example if you have 20 DHS, your buffer zone would be 20*2 = 40. So for the first 40 heat you would experience no penalties. But from 41-70 you would start experiencing heat penalties based on the 30 heat scale. So 45 heat would be like 5 heat on the scale, 50 heat would be like 10 heat on the scale, 70 heat heat be like 30 heat on the scale, etc...

If they add heat to JJ's and then you fire off a PPC AC meta you might be sitting there waiting for it to go down, I've seen a lot of metas that shoot and overheat or get very close to the threshold. Adding more heat to the equation would be excellent. If they lower the DPS then it's not nearly as effective of a build and brawlers could close in and nullify the PPC.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Khobai, on 04 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Adding heatscale penalties punishes ALL mechs, not just poptarts though. If all mechs are punished the same as poptarts it still doesnt fix poptarts. The only way to fix poptarts is to reduce pinpoint damage; without pinpoint damage poptarting is no longer effective.

I think a heatscale with penalties is a good idea in general.

It's just one part of the many things I think should be changed. But no, it's not a fix to poptarts.

Know what it does do though? Gets rid of a need for Ghost Heat.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 June 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

General Taskeen, on 04 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

He may be referring to heat build up when using Jump Jets in TT. Similar to MW:LL in that regard as well.

this would be the smart thing to do. other posters are just blowing hot air onto the screen -

[Khobai]

Quote

And if one of these heatscale penalties (maybe movement) also affected a chance to fall when landing JJs

You dont even need heatscale penalties for that.

Theyre adding fall damage to legs. So whenever your legs suffer X amount of fall damage your mech should have to make a piloting check to see if you fall down. That way if you dont cushion your landings with jumpjets you can fall down. Or if a mech falls off a cliff without JJ they can fall down. That makes sense to me.

[Kyle Wright]

If they do do these heat scales, and there are chances of overheating and cooking ammo off more frequent, We could see more drawn out fights, that allow for closer engagements with more heat efficient weapons. Aside from Poptarts getting hot, I know from experience LRM boats have a tendency to run their heat up super high close to shutdown. With all that ammo should be a chance to cook off when the heat scale spikes up into the danger zone. Could mean more balanced builds, but who knows what goes on in the microcosm know as PGI.