54 replies to this topic

[John1352]

I started playing this game a couple of weeks ago, and it is a lot of fun, but there is one really painful problem for me: Standard heat sinks.

I've played around in smurfy's mechlab, and found quite conclusively that there is no sensible mech (exc maybe machine gun lights) that is better off with standard heat sinks. As someone starting off, I didn't kill anyone for 40 or so games, got my 8m bonus, bought a jenner F and a catapult C1, and started kitting them out. Unfortunately I couldn't really fight, because I would just overheat before I could cause any damage (lrms worked ok, but lasers were terrible). Eventually I grinded my way to double heat sinks for both of them, at 25-50k credits a game, and started to be able to play properly, even managing to do over 600 damage in my catapult once! Now I am trying to elite my jenners, but having the same problem over again, I need to buy DHS again, and am lucky to get 100 damage on any of the non ice maps.

Engine heat sinks make up almost all of the heat dissipation for most mechs, making double heat sinks 2x as effective as normal ones.

Do the designers really want all the new players who are still learning the game to have:

• 50% of the heat capacity of opponents (from SHS)
  
• A further 15% less dissipation than opponents (elite skills)
  
• A further 20% less capacity than opponents (elite skills)

It just doesn't make sense to punish new players so badly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Huh, so why does your account say you started today?


Something smells of old fish..............

But hey, use the Trials, earn your cadet bonus, and do what the rest of us did.

UPGRADE your bloody heatsinks.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 June 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Huh, so why does your account say you started today?

Known issue, your account doesn't begin until you log into the forums. Make an Alt if you need to confirm.


As for the issue, yes, SHSs are absolutely useless in a DHS game. Working as intended. 1.0 dissipation against 3x heat with a rising heat cap.

[Scratx]

I don't think forum accounts are created automatically alongside the game account so if he never logged on until today... (ninja'd on this)

Still, his complaint is perfectly valid and we've been telling PGI that SHS just suck TOO MUCH. DHS can still be a straight upgrade without having SHS be a deathtrap.

Hell... STOCK MONDAYS prohibits double heat sink stock mechs for a reason!

Now, if PGI made engine SHS count for, say 1.5x? Oh, yeah, you could actually USE them and not be too gimped. DHS would still be a straight upgrade on almost every case but at least the difference would be smaller.

[John1352]

@bishop steiner: That was my first post on forums, which is why it would say I started today. Half the fun of a game like this is customisation (for me anyway). Trial mechs lack it.

[Solahma]

John1352, on 06 June 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

@bishop steiner: That was my first post on forums, which is why it would say I started today. Half the fun of a game like this is customisation (for me anyway). Trial mechs lack it.

Trial mechs are meant to teach you the game. Customization comes later. And so does the grind.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Half the point of the Champion Trial Mechs is that it gives new or poor players access to upgraded and (allegedly) optimized builds. Just keep running Trials until you have enough c-bills to kit your owned mechs out properly. You have a dozen options to chose from, as of the last patch.

[Jun Watarase]

I dont know why they dont just do what MW4 did and give everyone the same heatsinks. Standard heatsinks are not competitive with DHS. They are not meant to be.

Pretty much nobody would complain at all if newbies didnt have to pay 1.5 mil to upgrade to DHS to be competitive.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jun Watarase, on 06 June 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

I dont know why they dont just do what MW4 did and give everyone the same heatsinks. Standard heatsinks are not competitive with DHS. They are not meant to be.

Pretty much nobody would complain at all if newbies didnt have to pay 1.5 mil to upgrade to DHS to be competitive.

Cause MW4 was set in 3066-3067 when double Sinks were on almost everything being produced!

[Solahma]

If we had more objective play instead of the common "slaughter the other team until only one remains" from 90% of games... even on conquest...

Would be less of a concern at that point. Also, if role-warfare actually had real in-game objectives and rewards instead of everything being based on kills and damage...

Edited by Solahma, 06 June 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

John1352, on 06 June 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

@bishop steiner: That was my first post on forums, which is why it would say I started today. Half the fun of a game like this is customisation (for me anyway). Trial mechs lack it.

trial mechs lack it til you have dropped 25 times, earned your cadet bonus and start modding your shiny new mech like the rest of us. Sorry, no real sympathy here.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 June 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Solahma]

To expand on what I meant by in-game objectives, I mean objectives that you can track during the game. Cumulative goals that are monitored and displayed for players to be aware of. Here are a few examples:

Light Objective: "Spot Enemy Lance"
- value shows X/4 spots for lance Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie. 3 separate objectives. Once all 4 mechs of a lance have been spotted, that objective has been completed and reward given (c-bill, xp, etc). Perhaps require successful readouts gathered for each enemy mech.

Light Objective: "Bait"
- successfully lead enemy mechs in your direction. Only applies to Heavies and Assaults who move in your direction and have targeted you. Game mechanic would read if that mech is closing distance to your position. Once that mech has moved a certain distance in your direction, the objective has been completed. This could also be awarded by recognizing if you attacked a target, and then if that target turned his mech around a certain number of degrees. For example: you get behind an enemy assault and shoot its rear CT. The mech turns around, objective complete.

Light Objective: "Hold Target"
- can be earned several times, only on separate targets. Light mech holds a continuous target lock on an enemy mech for a period of time. X seconds until objective is completed.

Light Objective: "Pursue Lights"
- Game tracks your position relative to an enemy light mech that you have targeted. If you are within a certain tolerance of that mech's position for a given amount of time (X seconds) then the objective is complete.

Just brainstorming random things that a light mech's role involves. Would be nice to see these types of objectives factor into the end score for a team, but that would only work in a respawn-style game with a timelimit similar to MW4.

Many different ways role-warefare can be added, but the current system isn't enough and doesn't provide anything to work toward.

Of course there is the issue of actual GAME DECIDING objectives that would be very nice to have. Like whichever team can destroy the most objectives wins, and have ~20 destroyable objectives. Or a CTF game (like we had in MW4) where points are awarded by the flag being returned to base ( again dependent on respawn system...) Or VIP, which actually works very well when played in private matches. Just some thoughts...

Edited by Solahma, 06 June 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Asakara]

Mcgral18, on 06 June 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Known issue, your account doesn't begin until you log into the forums. Make an Alt if you need to confirm.

...

Not in my experience. I made an account in 2012 and never once logged into the forums or the game with it and it has the 2012 creation date. In addition, I tested it again 6 or so months ago by making a 3rd account which never got on the forums or game but still was searchable with the correct creation date. Finally, if you d/l the client and go to create a new account it opens the web page to make it so there is no way to create an account using only the client and not the web site (this was tested when I made a 4th account).

Therefore based on my experience and tests, I believe your account creation date seems to accurately reflect the day your account was created and not just the day you 1st visited the forums.

[MisterPlanetarian]

DHS vs SHS are a complete mess right now, but then again when you look at it they are basically impossible to balance properly. Even if we had Table Top restrictions DHS would be much better. And honestly, I don't think anyone want all the weapons to be on a 10 sec cycle, that would make for extremely dull gameplay. I'd nerf heat generation across the board though, but mainly with non PPC energy weapons and SRM's.

*You have 12 trial mechs right now though, which give you access to so much more playable builds compared to when I started playing about 19 months ago. We had to make use of STOCK builds.

*That said Something to ease the transition from trial to first owned mech would be great.

*Stick to the trial mechs untill you can afford double heat sinks on your mech. I'd recommend against going for a light as your first mech since they all require you to drop money on atleast 2 million Cbills worth of upgrades, not to mention an expensive engine upgrade.

*If you want to drop a few dollars though the mastery packs in the store are excellent, the light mech ones especially. I really wish I'd have had those when I first started.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 06 June 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[RussianWolf]

I will chime in on this a bit.

Lately I'be been grinding chassis, the faster I can buy them the better so no upgrades. No DHS, no engine changes. The only changes I've made to a mech recently is pulling the Flamers off a firestarter and replacing them with SLs so that I could fire for more than 2 seconds.

I'm running 14 mechs right now from all weight classes and 8 of them are bone stock. I'm running them in the public queue. Its actually fun. But it does make you think about heat management and fire control a lot more. It actually makes this a "Thinking Man's FPS"

Everyone should be trying to do this. It can only make you a better player.

[Bishop Steiner]

MisterPlanetarian, on 06 June 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

DHS vs SHS are a complete mess right now, but then again when you look at it they are basically impossible to balance properly. Even if we had Table Top restrictions DHS would be much better. And honestly, I don't think anyone want all the weapons to be on a 10 sec cycle, that would make for extremely dull gameplay. I'd nerf heat generation across the board though, but mainly with non PPC energy weapons and SRM's.

*You have 12 trial mechs right now though, which give you access to so much more playable builds compared to when I started playing about 19 months ago. We had to make use of STOCK builds.

*That said Something to ease the transition from trial to first owned mech would be great.

*Stick to the trial mechs untill you can afford double heat sinks on your mech. I'd recommend against going for a light as your first mech since they all require you to drop money on atleast 2 million Cbills worth of upgrades, not to mention an expensive engine upgrade.

*If you want to drop a few dollars though the mastery packs in the store are excellent, the light mech ones especially. I really wish I'd have had those when I first started.

yup, they never were remotely balanced in TT either. and boy howdy on SMM yo can find out how unbalanced gimped DHS are really fast.

RussianWolf, on 06 June 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I will chime in on this a bit.

Lately I'be been grinding chassis, the faster I can buy them the better so no upgrades. No DHS, no engine changes. The only changes I've made to a mech recently is pulling the Flamers off a firestarter and replacing them with SLs so that I could fire for more than 2 seconds.

I'm running 14 mechs right now from all weight classes and 8 of them are bone stock. I'm running them in the public queue. Its actually fun. But it does make you think about heat management and fire control a lot more. It actually makes this a "Thinking Man's FPS"

Everyone should be trying to do this. It can only make you a better player.

[RussianWolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Oh come on Bishop, You need to know the joy of killing a meta build with a stock mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

RussianWolf, on 06 June 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Oh come on Bishop, You need to know the joy of killing a meta build with a stock mech.

my YLW IS stock.

[RussianWolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

my YLW IS stock.

nope, but the ones I've been running recently are.

Stalker 4N, Orion VA, Battlemaster 3S (I think its stock DHS though), Shadowhawk 2D, Highlander 733P, couple more.... The Firestarter H is the one I swapped the Flammers for SL/SPLs but the SHS and engine are stock.

[Bishop Steiner]

RussianWolf, on 06 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

nope, but the ones I've been running recently are.

Stalker 4N, Orion VA, Battlemaster 3S (I think its stock DHS though), Shadowhawk 2D, Highlander 733P, couple more.... The Firestarter H is the one I swapped the Flammers for SL/SPLs but the SHS and engine are stock.

no, you said I should try it. I said I do, My YLW is stock. I use it on SMM, but also on normal drops. The precipitous decline in speed is not to my liking, but it makes me a more thoughtful player.