210 replies to this topic

[Xeno Phalcon]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

TLDR: if you have proof that they have lied to you - put up or shut up.

I don't much care either way, but mighty hard with stuff like mwomercs.com/robots.txt in place,which is sort of like internet c**kblocking for websites like web.archive.org.

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 09 June 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Xeno Phalcon, on 09 June 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I don't much care either way, but mighty hard with stuff like mwomercs.com/robots.txt in place,which is sort of like internet c**kblocking for websites like web.archive.org.

Allow me to rephrase that TLDR since apparently 2 paragraphs of 1 sentence each was actually to long for you.

If you have proof that they lied to you that is a legal crime.


Do something about it or shut up.

Which means - take it up with the law........ or shut up.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Allow me to rephrase that TLDR since apparently 2 paragraphs of 1 sentence each was actually to long for you.

If you have proof that they lied to you that is a legal crime.


Do something about it or shut up.

Which means - take it up with the law........ or shut up.

Hey dont turn your angry at me, I was just pointing out how it would be difficult for your other chew toy to provide any such proof.

[Prezimonto]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

The game I want to play is so complex it will probably never get made - and I have been waiting for it since Mech2.


Destruction of parts of the mechs that have yet to even have any pressence outside of a few novels (IE a laser melting the casing ejection port on an autocannon - rendering the AC useless - without destroying it - damaging the loading mechanism - or the stabalizers - or the specific threads of myomer fibers - without actually destroying the legs ability to move)

Punching holes in specific parts of the arm or leg or torso - not just pounding him with a small laser and somehow removing armor from the entire left side of an Altas....


I have said it before - I will say it again.

If you have proof that they have deliberately and knowingly lied to you - that is called Fraud.

Fraud is a serious crime - and if you have proof of that and chose not to actually do anything about it (and no - whining on the forum does not count) then you are just as much to blame for the state of things as they are.


Just like someone witnessing a murder but not saying anything can be held responsible for the murderer remaining at large.






TLDR: if you have proof that they have lied to you - put up or shut up.

I have no proof. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to shut up about it. It's entirely possible they're incompetent at determining work load and time projected time lines for work. But it's either that (repeatedly) or they lied (repeatedly).

Either way my confidence in the developers to deliver the game they presented to Founders through the Dev Diaries is essentially nil.

And I agree, I would love a much more simulation oriented mech experience(perhaps not down to a million buttons, but certainly with the kind of granularity in damage you're describing), particularly with the advent of technology like TrackIR and Oculus Rift.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 June 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Either way my confidence in the developers to deliver the game they presented to Founders through the Dev Diaries is essentially nil.

So you have no proof - but you believe it strong enough that you are going to keep waving the flag?


Gotcha.

For the record though?
My confidence that any developer could make the game I want never existed.


My opinion on MWO can be summed up as such:

After MW4 actively peed on the game mechanics....
After Mechassault...

After MW:LL did just as much changing as MWO has - if not even more.....
(gee - and to think they could have got the license to make MWLL into MWO..........)



MWO is at least a step in the right direction.

Xeno Phalcon, on 09 June 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Hey dont turn your angry at me

Then don't go phrasing it like you are looking for a fight.

That does wonders for the way people respond to you.



But then, I guess PGI is the only one who should be getting in trouble for being lousy at communication.

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

that I was lied to outright about projected content and delivery rate.

THAT attitude however - is beyond old and tired.


That attitude.... is the same sort of poor communication and thinking.....that people keep getting upset at PGI for having.


Isn't life wonderful that way?

[Xeno Phalcon]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Then don't go phrasing it like you are looking for a fight.

That does wonders for the way people respond to you.

But then, I guess PGI is the only one who should be getting in trouble for being lousy at communication.

While I wouldnt call my post angelic I clearly pointed out right off the bat that

Quote

I don't much care either way

in regards to if there was or was not any proof but had information showing that it was unlikely the argument could go much farther due to a general lack of possibility for such proof, but hey if it makes you feel better to lash out at others you go right on ahead.



And have a kitten.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Xeno Phalcon, on 09 June 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

While I wouldnt call my post angelic I clearly pointed out right off the bat that

You would be surprised how often I run into people trying to start an argument that way (IRL as well as the forums )



.....customer service...worst job in the world - I would rather be scrubbing toilets.


Having said that - thanks for the kitten - sorry the best I can do in return is a pokemon - but at least it isn't a Pikachu.

[Prezimonto]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

MWO is at least a step in the right direction.

Then don't go phrasing it like you are looking for a fight.

That does wonders for the way people respond to you.

But then, I guess PGI is the only one who should be getting in trouble for being lousy at communication.

I have plenty of proof that they are either:
1) Extremely bad at judging deadlines to report, with many consecutive, "due in 90 days" issues that get pushed another 90 days back.

2) If they aren't essentially incompetent at meeting deadlines then the most obvious conclusion is they lied to us about deadlines.

It's actually a simple problem, either they knew they couldn't meet the deadlines given to supporters, or they thought they could and have been so woefully, inadequately, unable to meet them that two years after the first 90 days later promise we've still got another 90 days to wait.

I can't know the reason for the exceptional failures the devs had to deliver on content other than a handful of maps and new mechs, despite telling us over and over that more is coming. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of proof that they did in fact fail to meet stated goals and deadlines repeatedly.

Add that many of the decisions they've made over the last two years have been highly unsatisfying for someone looking for mech combat in the battletech setting, with a bent towards mech comabt simulation (again as originally presented to founders), and I've had enough. I'd like to think that they're not so incompetent that they couldn't have figured out after the first 90 days were up that they weren't going to many anything close to the projected timeline. If they had been up-front then that it might be a LONG time I wouldn't be nearly as irritated. But we were strung along, offered more mechs without much else, sometimes in expensive packages, and I'm just done with all the shady marketing and communication.

I actually don't know why you're being so hostile about it, I'm letting off a gripe, about a common issue around here, and you're actually telling me to shut up and go away.

I get what you're saying about no game will ever be perfect, exactly what I want to play. That doesn't mean that THIS game hasn't gone down an entirely dissatisfying road. One that de-emphasizes many of the unique features of the setting and strongly discourages larger community groups through lack of support, and actively shutting down the ability to form groups in game and easily find matches. I have no problem with non-cannon changes to make the game feel like battletech and be fun to play as a FPS. I've suggested lots of non-cannon solutions. But that doesn't change that this game still has issues over a year later with stale game play revolving around non-cannon mech builds that heavily emphasize high front loaded damage, often paired with jump jets.

It's just not much fun anymore, outside of Stock Mech Mondays, and it could have been something much, much better.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 June 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I have plenty of proof that they are either:

Proof that they are having problems was never the question.

Proof that they are deliberately lying to people is.

Proof that:

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think this is still what's making me most angry: that I was lied to outright about projected content and delivery rate.

THAT is justified is the question.


Unless of course - you are giving permission for people to scream about you lying when you miss deadlines.

[Prezimonto]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Proof that they are having problems was never the question.

Proof that they are deliberately lying to people is.

Proof that:

THAT is justified is the question.


Unless of course - you are giving permission for people to scream about you lying when you miss deadlines.

I've already admitted that initial statement is, at best, only perhaps correct.

And, yes, I fully expect that if I over the course of a year told my boss that I can't make this deadline, it'll be 3 months more, every three months, and then at the end of that first year said, "wait, no, make than a whole year more." I fully expect that I'd be fired, or at the minimum censured or yelled at.

It would demonstrate that I, honestly, have no real idea what I'm doing, or worse that I was lying the whole time about actually working on the project.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 June 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I've already admitted that initial statement is, at best, only perhaps correct.

Yes you have.


And yet you seem to keep taking offense from it.


Hitting a little to close to home did it?


As for the problems PGI is having there are several many fixes for them.


But alas!

It is sooo much better! to just keep whining in the forum!

[DAYLEET]

Get it straight Prez, when PGI says they are going to do something and then never do(or vice versa) it it's not lying it's business as usual. and im usualy glad about that because i don't realy want to play a hardcore nerdy game.

For exemple, if they never implemented 3rd person view i would never had spent hundreads of $ on colors and camo. Now they could have given us the opportunity to shoot the little uav flying negating the use till the next match(unless you had more in module slot?) but you know...pgi.

Now if you said they mostly make terrible choices in their "timeline?" of stuff to add to the game id say "Right on brother!"

Edited by DAYLEET, 09 June 2014 - 03:18 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yes you have.


And yet you seem to keep taking offense from it.


Hitting a little to close to home did it?


As for the problems PGI is having there are several many fixes for them.


But alas!

It is sooo much better! to just keep whining in the forum!

I'm not taking offense for no reason. I'm defending my feelings, which I've also admitted to having, because they're based on being jilted over and over. It's not like the bitterness stems from a single or even only a few instances of problems.

I've also tried to lend constructive feed back, time and time again. It has essentially added up to nothing. So if good responses are good for nothing, and bad responses are good for nothing... does it matter which way I land on day to basis?

If I didn't still love the setting, I wouldn't still be posting here at all. If stock mech mondays didn't exist I wouldn't be playing the game at all anymore.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I'm not taking offense for no reason. I'm defending my feelings, which I've also admitted to having, because they're based on being jilted over and over. It's not like the bitterness stems from a single or even only a few instances of problems.

I apologize for offending your feelings then.

Unfortunately for you - my feelings are that despite your self proclaimed attempts at constructive feedback - you have on the whole behaved in what has been - for the most part - at best an infantile manor.


So why don't we leave it at that before the moderators get upset?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 09 June 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

I apologize for offending your feelings then.

Unfortunately for you - my feelings are that despite your self proclaimed attempts at constructive feedback - you have on the whole behaved in what has been - for the most part - at best an infantile manor.


So why don't we leave it at that before the moderators get upset?

Heh, and here I was going to point out that our feelings are equally valid, based on evidence(of different sorts and both causing us to be irritated), and at cross purposes. Also, thanks for the parting infantile jibe, that's amazing.

Cheers.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 June 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[codynyc]

with all the money from the gold mechs they got .. hopefully it wont go to develop another game.....

[Shimmering Sword]

Prezimonto, on 09 June 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

based on evidence

You went and said it again man. You keep saying roughly "ok, I concede my point, it's just feelings", then you immediately reassert that you have evidence against them. You don't.

You listed two possible outcomes, stop trying to convince yorself that they're a company of liars and just acept the obvious and very easy to believe option of "they over estimated their abilities".
Regardless of if someone likes or dislikes this game, that's the one undeniable thing, PGI kicked this off from the deep end and couldn't pull through fast enough.
Have they been deliberately delaying the game and changing features just to spite you? No. They've encountered coding roadblocks, scaling issues, an agressively evolving competitive community, and yes, bad delivery estimates.

But what are we getting? Progress, no matter how slow. Arguably the prettiest MW game to date. A huge mech selection, a steadily increasing map pool. Balance and feature changes that better the game (even if slow to come). And eventually, community warfare, which at no point have they ever said they're dropping.

So, despite PGI having trouble with development, they on the whole have good intensions the for the game. If they really wanted to be some evil empire for the sole purpose of ruining the lives of battletech fans, they could have done it in much easier ways.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

The game I want to play is so complex it will probably never get made - and I have been waiting for it since Mech2.


Destruction of parts of the mechs that have yet to even have any pressence outside of a few novels (IE a laser melting the casing ejection port on an autocannon - rendering the AC useless - without destroying it - damaging the loading mechanism - or the stabalizers - or the specific threads of myomer fibers - without actually destroying the legs ability to move)

Punching holes in specific parts of the arm or leg or torso - not just pounding him with a small laser and somehow removing armor from the entire left side of an Altas....


I have said it before - I will say it again.

If you have proof that they have deliberately and knowingly lied to you - that is called Fraud.

Fraud is a serious crime - and if you have proof of that and chose not to actually do anything about it (and no - whining on the forum does not count) then you are just as much to blame for the state of things as they are.


Just like someone witnessing a murder but not saying anything can be held responsible for the murderer remaining at large.

TLDR: if you have proof that they have lied to you - put up or shut up.

Shar Wolf, on 09 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Allow me to rephrase that TLDR since apparently 2 paragraphs of 1 sentence each was actually to long for you.

If you have proof that they lied to you that is a legal crime.


Do something about it or shut up.

Which means - take it up with the law........ or shut up.

this is an official news channel representitive of the componies plans of action.

http://mwomercs.com/...eveloper-update

note:



these dates may have not been set in stone but was an assurance of the developement plans to founders of the game they're purchased products would be going towards. these features regardless were as stated for the open beta phase.

it hasn't happened, pilot trees are still partially broken place holders and CW is still vaporware

now let's confirm that this news statement was in fact a lie.

http://mwomercs.com/...e-inner-sphere/



note CW is associated with plans having no developement towards it until the licence was renewed. ie: they told lies about their developement plans to ensure founders would buy in and then only when money is secured do they say "sorry it was all an act whilst we do more important things". if this isn't fraudulant then it's the worst and most mislleading of management i've ever witnessed and is a perfectly good reason for boycotting this whole project which is still pushing deadlines back and is still underdelivering whilst grabdealing on recycled content.

now i've put up exactly why pgi boast an under 50% founders retention and you can shut up.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 09 June 2014 - 06:58 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Shimmering Sword, on 09 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

You went and said it again man. You keep saying roughly "ok, I concede my point, it's just feelings", then you immediately reassert that you have evidence against them. You don't.

You listed two possible outcomes, stop trying to convince yorself that they're a company of liars and just acept the obvious and very easy to believe option of "they over estimated their abilities".
Regardless of if someone likes or dislikes this game, that's the one undeniable thing, PGI kicked this off from the deep end and couldn't pull through fast enough.
Have they been deliberately delaying the game and changing features just to spite you? No. They've encountered coding roadblocks, scaling issues, an agressively evolving competitive community, and yes, bad delivery estimates.

But what are we getting? Progress, no matter how slow. Arguably the prettiest MW game to date. A huge mech selection, a steadily increasing map pool. Balance and feature changes that better the game (even if slow to come). And eventually, community warfare, which at no point have they ever said they're dropping.

So, despite PGI having trouble with development, they on the whole have good intensions the for the game. If they really wanted to be some evil empire for the sole purpose of ruining the lives of battletech fans, they could have done it in much easier ways.

I myself have said it hundreds of times. PGI should have had UI 2.0 in the works from the very beginning. I feel as if they always waited for the roadblocks to happen instead of anticipating them. I do love this game,it is not perfect but it is fun. I think it can only get better.

[Prezimonto]

Shimmering Sword, on 09 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

You went and said it again man. You keep saying roughly "ok, I concede my point, it's just feelings", then you immediately reassert that you have evidence against them. You don't.

You listed two possible outcomes, stop trying to convince yorself that they're a company of liars and just acept the obvious and very easy to believe option of "they over estimated their abilities".
Regardless of if someone likes or dislikes this game, that's the one undeniable thing, PGI kicked this off from the deep end and couldn't pull through fast enough.
Have they been deliberately delaying the game and changing features just to spite you? No. They've encountered coding roadblocks, scaling issues, an agressively evolving competitive community, and yes, bad delivery estimates.

But what are we getting? Progress, no matter how slow. Arguably the prettiest MW game to date. A huge mech selection, a steadily increasing map pool. Balance and feature changes that better the game (even if slow to come). And eventually, community warfare, which at no point have they ever said they're dropping.

So, despite PGI having trouble with development, they on the whole have good intensions the for the game. If they really wanted to be some evil empire for the sole purpose of ruining the lives of battletech fans, they could have done it in much easier ways.

What, you need me to dig up the repeated times they said, "another 90 days" before CW? or UI 2.0 which was the block to CW? Stop being a lazy forum goer and look it up yourself. Just because you draw the prettiest, awesomest mechs, doesn't mean you get to call me wrong for calling events that happened, evidence.

My feelings of irritation stem from:
A lack of CW after 2 years (yes, I realize I need to wait longer).

A UI that's more clunky than before (yes, I know fixes are on the way).

Stale gameplay, which hasn't significantly changed in a year (I see no reason this will change anytime soon, unless clan mechs significantly change the way the game is played).

Lack of support for groups between 5 and 11 players. (possible fixes in the distant future, caused most of my personal group to abandon ship a long time ago, as we couldn't all play together)

There's more, but at the end of the day I agree, the devs have good intentions for the game. They care, or at least many of them do, and that's obvious, but for much of this it's going to be too little and/or too late.

I also don't think, IF they were lying about deadlines that it had anything to do with pissing off battletech fans, I think it has everything to do with making money. And that's where we get to a number of decisions that necessary or not also have the tang of being shady:
The announcement that PGI secured the license to the game for additional years, AND THEN started work for real on CW and UI 2.0 after "launch".
The handling of gold mechs being "limited" in number with no actual number of mechs or way to verify how many actually exist, it's certainly possible, but usually you get a number like 048/100 so you know you're buying something special and not a random marketing scheme to increase hype.
The same goes for the bonus prizes on the phoenix and clan packs... those numbers don't move, nothing tells us how many people need to sign up/pay out to get to the next level, it again looks like a pure marketing ploy to generate enthusiasm using the tools of kickstarted material without the accountability. Am I glad people will get their extra bits, that that might not have gotten at all? Yes. Is it ethically dubious? I sure looks that way to me.

In short, I'm worn out. I wouldn't be upset if I didn't genuinely like the game, at least at one point. Or if I wasn't invested fairly heavily into the game. But the only solution is "wait", and part of the problem is the cycle of hope and disappointment I've ridden with the game, while waiting, for years now. Hope that all will better with the next patch, fix, solution, addition, mech, map, and more often not disappointment that it's not actually getting better in a significant fashion. Small, incremental changes have happened, but even those are a mixed bag, dealing with one problem and causing more.

Edited by Prezimonto, 09 June 2014 - 07:17 PM.