147 replies to this topic

[Peiper]

A small flame heats up a small mech the same as a large flame would heat up a big mech. I don't understand why larger mechs would generate more heat than smaller ones. Physics wise: we're talking about a large amount of heat being dissipated/distributed over a large area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor vs. a small amount of heat dissipating over a small area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor plates. Sometimes model rocks explode on the launchpad. Sometimes space shuttles explode. Same idea here. There's no reason mechs should get hotter simply because of size/weight. More jump jets, yes, more heat, more lift, faster lift, that all makes sense. But not just, well, you know those jump snipers...

Two things can work to fix pinpoint damage uber-builds: convergence and/or appropriately sized hardpoints. But whatever, you keep mucking about and do what you want rather than what makes sense...

[Cimarb]

Peiper, on 06 June 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

A small flame heats up a small mech the same as a large flame would heat up a big mech. I don't understand why larger mechs would generate more heat than smaller ones. Physics wise: we're talking about a large amount of heat being dissipated/distributed over a large area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor vs. a small amount of heat dissipating over a small area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor plates. Sometimes model rocks explode on the launchpad. Sometimes space shuttles explode. Same idea here. There's no reason mechs should get hotter simply because of size/weight. More jump jets, yes, more heat, more lift, faster lift, that all makes sense. But not just, well, you know those jump snipers...

Two things can work to fix pinpoint damage uber-builds: convergence and/or appropriately sized hardpoints.

I completely agree with all this, but I do think there is another alternative, in that burst-fire ballistics will dramatically help the jump-sniping "issue". Doing something with PPCs will be the other key to that (see my signature).

[Kirtanus]

waiting for real numbers. hope it will affect heat enough significantly!

[Adran]

Peiper, on 06 June 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

A small flame heats up a small mech the same as a large flame would heat up a big mech. I don't understand why larger mechs would generate more heat than smaller ones. Physics wise: we're talking about a large amount of heat being dissipated/distributed over a large area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor vs. a small amount of heat dissipating over a small area via heat sinks, blast doors and armor plates. Sometimes model rocks explode on the launchpad. Sometimes space shuttles explode. Same idea here. There's no reason mechs should get hotter simply because of size/weight. More jump jets, yes, more heat, more lift, faster lift, that all makes sense. But not just, well, you know those jump snipers...

Two things can work to fix pinpoint damage uber-builds: convergence and/or appropriately sized hardpoints. But whatever, you keep mucking about and do what you want rather than what makes sense...

This is true, until you consider that those mechs are using TOTALLY different TYPES of Jumpjets. The sheer amount of power necessary to lift any mech is of course going to create heat, but the difference between lifting 20 tons, and lifting 100 tons, is HUGE. Of COURSE the larger jumpjets are going to generate significantly more heat. Your comparing the Jumpjets to a shuttle is laughably inaccurate to the situation at hand.

[MountainCopper]

I know the numbers in the post are just as an example, but 0.1 h/s for the smallest JJ seems pointless to my mind, when 1 continuously fired Medium Laser has 1.0 h/s in comparison.

If the Spider had a good amount of JJs, let's say 5. After using all JJs for the whole duration of 4 (?) seconds, that's 4 s *(5 * 0.1 h/s) = 2 h
If it were 10 times per heat, 1.0 h/s per Class V jump jet, that would be 20 heat. The equivalent of firing 5 ML once. That seems a bit too much and then would discourage the use of more JJs...

Tricky thing to implement. Maybe a non-linear system to keep the use of multiple JJs not too disadvantageous simply because of heat.

Edited by GoldenFleece, 07 June 2014 - 12:27 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

OK for those of you that are not jump brawlers let me share several ways this kills jump brawlers if there is much heat made at all.

1. You have over heated from firing weapons. Now as soon as your mech turns back on you can jump and turn. This helps people not be able to core a torso. But with jump jet heat you will just instantly overheat again and fall.

2. In the middle of a fight you have not over heated but are riding the limit. Because of jump jet heat you can now not jump jet at all without over heating. Until the brawl is over you are basicly without jump jets if you are firing.

So can this be compensated for? Well you can make your mech run very very cool. But you will either be very slow or very under powered.

My late light sleep deprived prediction is that this will kill jump brawling for larger mechs as we know it. There will be to many downsides. People will either not take jump jets or will only take enough to get over rocks etc.

[Reno Blade]

Two things I like to add here.

First:
I hope the heat is added on top of whatever you are at, not as the base like moving, running and jumping (4-8 %) we have now. But as it seems, that will be the case. Just want to be sure.

Second:
It might be a good idea to increase the base value and reduce the multiplier for number of heatsinks to give low-numbers not such a great advantage.

E.G.:
now you have Heat x #-of-JJets x Time
lets take a hevy jumping 4 seconds with 1 JJ vs jumping for 2 seconds with 4 JJets for the same hight (estimate) and say Heat is 1.0 per sec
That would be 1heat x 1jj x 4sec = 4 heat vs 1heat x 4JJets x 2sec = 8 heat

What if the formular would be:
Heat x (#-of-JJets + 2) / 2 x Time ?
Lets take the same heavy mech and values as above 4sec/1JJ vs 2sec/4JJ.
1heat x (1JJet +2)/2 x4sec = 6 heat vs 1heat x (4JJets +2)/2 x 2sec = 6 heat

This is just an example/idea of how to lower the overal impact of the number of JJets in the formular where burntime for the same amount of fuel might be the result.

[Alex Warden]

like it, go on

my lights dont burn their jets for long anyway, and assault bunnies will face some serious heat...sounds good enough to try it out..

[Li Song]

Qustion:

The post was a bit ambiguous. Is the heat generated per second a constant or is it a function of time? I.e. do we have:

totalHeatGenerated(t) = k * n * (t-t0)

where 'k' is a jump jet specific constant and 'n' is the number of jump jets.
Or is it:

heatGeneration(t) = k * n * (t-t0)
totalHeatGenerated(t) = heatGeneration(t) * (t-t0) = k * n *  (t-t0)^2

?

As I read the post it could be interpreted both ways.

[p4r4g0n]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I'm starting to think this suggestion technically "reinforces" having 1 JJ instead of 3-4.

Why does this sound a tad backwards?

Good point

Cimarb, on 06 June 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

-snip-
Penalizing players for bringing MORE jump jets, which this system does, 'reinforces' the habit of using less jump jets, exactly as Deathlike stated. The jump jet post says nothing about a change to the current issue of a single jump jet giving just as much boost as a full set, though I do hope you are right on that point.

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

-snip-
IIRC, JJs currently use "scalar values" (aka it's linear).

What they should be is exponential.

Ever wonder why 1 JJ gives essentially "fixed" height increases in the mechlab? That's not good.

Instead of +5m for each JJ, it would be like 3 for JJ #1, then 9 or 10 for JJ #2, and 18-19 for JJ #3, etc.
You can change the lift based on weight or whatever that makes sense.

It would work better really.
-snip-

JJ lift should be exponentially better with more JJs, not linearlly better which is what it happens to be right now.

Using multiple JJs to reach X height should take less time than using a single JJ AND generate less heat (i.e. time to reach said height is significantly quicker using multiple JJs) to incentivise using more JJs at the expense of slots and tonnage ... or is there some technical reason this cannot be done since the exponential vs linear effect of JJs has been discussed multiple times before?

[Pariah Devalis]

p4r4g0n, on 07 June 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

snip re: favoring less jump jets.

I would like to point out this is not a change in a vacuum. This change alone would favor taking minimal jump jets, yes, but combined with the fall damage change it does not.

You would need to make an intelligent loadout choice now. Either you reduce heat generated when jump jetting at the increased chance of having insufficient fuel to cushion your landing and snap your own legs off, or you have enough fuel to safely land at the cost of heat generation while jumping.

In essence, the two changes oppose one another, and do so beautifully. You cannot take one without the other. If it was just this change, then you would be correct that it favors a single jet, whereas if you take the other one alone it only favors taking more. Now there is a very good reason to be taking more than just one or two jump jets. However, doing so is at a cost. Not doing so is also at a cost. It is up to the player to decide which is the lesser one.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 June 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[Duymon]

JJ burn time should be the same whether you have 1 jet or 5 jets, but lift should change dramatically based on number of jets.

1 jet on a victor will be like a fart and only good for bypassing small impediments while 4 would allow for toaster-like popping up, but at the cost of higher heat.

This would also make the Spider 5V a blast to drive with it's kagillion jets.

[East Indy]

Pariah Devalis, on 07 June 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

Either you reduce heat generated when jump jetting at the increased chance of having insufficient fuel to cushion your landing and snap your own legs off, or you have enough fuel to safely land at the cost of heat generation while jumping.

Except height is determined by thrust, and in MWO all jets have identical fuel stores.

If I have 2 jump jets and complete a 50% burn, I should have comparable thrust to cushion my landing as if I burned 50% with 8 jump jets. Well, except for that if I made a mistake, I'd pay higher fall damage costs with 8 jets.

Quote

You would need to make an intelligent loadout choice now.

Yes: as few jump jets as possible, since based on Paul's example a single press of the jump keybind would generate 700% additional heat.

Players who don't oppose the penalty for multiple jets have yet to explain:

1. Where this high-up ledge everybody will suddenly be jumping to exists

2. Why players need a heat disincentive to equip more jets

Edited by East Indy, 07 June 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Deitz]

This is aimed at the Jump sniping meta for sure. That's ok... I never really liked the jump sniping meta anyway. I would also like to point out we've been here before. We'll be back 4 to 6 months from now when people start to figure out what the next meta is.

[Mechteric]

After this change, how about jump jets that aren't so slow and floaty? Lets get these things rocket propelled!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 07 June 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Livewyr]

Sounds like a good step in the right direction- While you're at it (explicitly, preferably at the same time you implement JJ heat) please to take a pass at the JJ thrust:

1 JJ shouldn't be sufficient to put the mech higher than couple meters off the ground.. pretty much just used for snap turns.


And if it were up to me, I'd make the JJs:
A: Generate ridiculous amounts of heat.. like 2-4 per second so they become maneuver tools, not pop-tart/crouching tiger fighting tools.
B: Generate quick thrust upwards and burn for less time.

This would make them the mobility tools they should be.

[Matta]

Jakob Knight, on 06 June 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

According to the table-top rules, the farther and higher a battlemech jumped, the more heat it generated. Why you think Light Mechs should not be penalized for having the longer and higher jump abilities over other battlemechs seems odd. Why should a light mech pilot -not- have to balance their jump jet use against the heat generated by heavy use of this system, when other units do?

Ever since I saw a stationary Jenner take two AC/20 hits from another stationary firing unit at close range directly to its rear torsos and only take yellow armor damage, I've long suspected a bias towards bending the rules for light mechs, and this smacks of the same. If a light mech is not engaging in combat while using their jump jets overmuch, then there wouldn't be a problem with heat, would there? Yet, apparently, the same issue that is attempting to make heavier units not use their jump jets in combat is something light mechs are intended to get a pass on?

Quit making special cases for light mechs, and just let every unit be treated fairly under the rules. Heavier units already have to pay more tonnage for their jump jets, -and- cannot jump as far. Why must they now also take -more- heat simply because they are not lighter units?

Light mechs already have the advantages of speed, damage reduction, and small size. They do not need, nor should have, any other 'special rules' simply because they are Light mechs. Let light mechs be -light- units.

Maybe they doing all these "favors" to light Mechs because they want that someone actually play them ?
Or you think that Light Mechs should be erased from the game completely because they are just waste of tonnage anyway ?

About your case with Jenner and yellow torso after AC40 hit:
Most people around see that as broken hit-reg, not "Light Mechs conspiracy theory".

[Alek Ituin]

CapperDeluxe, on 07 June 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

After this change, how about jump jets that aren't so slow and floaty? Lets get these things rocket propelled!

Our 'Mechs would need a TWR of 1 or higher to not be slow or floaty. That means that for every 1kg of 'Mech, we need roughly 10N of force.

So assuming metric tons, a 20 ton 'Mech should be 20000kg, which would require 200kN of engine power to lift at a TWR of 1. A 100 ton 'Mech is even harder to lift, being 100000kg and requiring a whopping 1000kN of thrust to lift at a TWR of 1. 200kN of thrust is a LOT of thrust, even with today's standards, and 1000kN of thrust is just insane.


Sure we're using plasma jets, but that's still a f**k-ton of thrust needed. There's a certain point at which even Handwavium just doesn't work, and 20+ tonne 'Mechs with a TWR of 1 or higher is getting close to it.

[DevilCrayon]

There aren't any values on your time axis. -10pts

[n r g]

So long as the heat doesn't totally nerf/eliminate/pose a huge threat to jump sniping, I'm OK with it. I'm sure this "JJ heat" is going to be negligible and very similar to the "jump jet shake" added to JJ mechs.

In other words, we just snipers are going to barely notice it and otherwise adapt, so if you kiddies thought this was the end of jump sniping, think again