147 replies to this topic

[Shogun459]

I like it.
Anything that brings more realizm to the game is better for gameplay and its immersive qualities.
It's about time that the real energy required to lift something that wieghs tons and the heat that it requires to shift that amount of mass be addressed.

The same goes (in general) for fall damage.
Heck I'd like to see falls from say X height be spectacularly fatal. If you don't have the jet power to stop the desent your cockpit should pound right into the ground and your core go critBOOM hehe.

Gravity sucks.
(How about a high grav map? Say, falls double in speed mech movement halved, AS IS MISSILE RANGE AND BALLISTIC what do you think? )

[fat4eyes]

I'd like to suggest that JJ heat be like Terra Therma lava in that it brings your heat up but doesn't actually make your mech shut down. Dodging enemy fire in a JJ light would become frustrating if using JJs can (directly) cause you to shutdown.

[Tlords]

I love the idea of falls being catastrophic for great heights. Jumping and firing should be a skill that also imparts risk. The risk is major damage to your legs.q

[GreyGriffin]

While I am all for jump jets having some kind of heat burden versus none, the implementation above really doesn't punish the abuse of jump jets for low exposure jump sniping, while making them extremely dangerous to use for close ranged ambushes and escapes.

I don't think that is the kind of change in gameplay dynamic that we need.

[Artax33]

This gives me a little concern for the Summoner and the Nova. Their 5 JJs are hardwired. You can't decide how many you take, so even a little thrust could cause some problems. The Summoner is already in a rough spot having only 21 tons free with almost full armor.

[Cimarb]

Artax33, on 23 June 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

This gives me a little concern for the Summoner and the Nova. Their 5 JJs are hardwired. You can't decide how many you take, so even a little thrust could cause some problems. The Summoner is already in a rough spot having only 21 tons free with almost full armor.

That is actually why they decided not to implement this portion of the "fix" yet.

[Artax33]

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

That is actually why they decided not to implement this portion of the "fix" yet.

They said this patch has a fix that makes you jump height linear based on the number of JJ you have. Something about having only one giving more height then it should. Kind of a nerf, and they didn't want to put 2 in one patch. It doesn't matter when they do the JJ heat thing, the Nova and the Summoner will not be able to control to the same degree how much heat they have from JJ.

[Cimarb]

Artax33, on 23 June 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

They said this patch has a fix that makes you jump height linear based on the number of JJ you have. Something about having only one giving more height then it should. Kind of a nerf, and they didn't want to put 2 in one patch. It doesn't matter when they do the JJ heat thing, the Nova and the Summoner will not be able to control to the same degree how much heat they have from JJ.

I'm completely missing something, or you are complaining about heat that you can "turn off" by letting go of the space bar... You have 100% control over the heat from JJs, regardless of how many are equipped.

[Artax33]

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

I'm completely missing something, or you are complaining about heat that you can "turn off" by letting go of the space bar... You have 100% control over the heat from JJs, regardless of how many are equipped.

Not complaining, just stating a concerning. There is a small loss of control when you can't remove some JJ, just using them to maneuver will cause more heat then other mechs. The summoner is kind of a niche mech to begin with, between its free weight and hard points. More skill will be needed to use it and this change might up the skill needed a little more.

Edited by Artax33, 23 June 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Artax33, on 23 June 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

They said this patch has a fix that makes you jump height linear based on the number of JJ you have. Something about having only one giving more height then it should. Kind of a nerf, and they didn't want to put 2 in one patch. It doesn't matter when they do the JJ heat thing, the Nova and the Summoner will not be able to control to the same degree how much heat they have from JJ.

What I understand regarding jump jet mechanics and upcoming fixes (thrust scaling, heat balancing, damage scaling) is this ...
- thrust scaling ... right now, for all jump-capable 'mechs except highlanders, one jump jet provides more thrust than it should, and they're working out a system so that for all jumpers, more jets = more thrust, and (in general) one jet is not going to be enough to clear most hard cover (not to be implemented this patch, because they haven't figured out exaclty how to scale it)
- heat balancing ... when thrust scaling is implemented, they will implement linear heat application, where each class of jump jets will produce a fixed amount of heat over time ... a 3 jump jet spider pilot pressing space for one second will produce one quarter of the heat of 12 jump jets over the same amount of time, for example (not to be implemented this patch so that they're not overly penalizing a 5-jump jet Summoner, which can't change it's load, over, for example a, 1-jump jet Cataphract)
- damage scaling ... beyond a certain falling speed, the damage you take will depend on how fast you're falling and how heavy your 'mech is (unlike now, where a 20-tonner falling from a certain distance at a certain speed will take the exact same amount of damage as a 100-tonner) ... this will be implemented this patch.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Artax33, on 23 June 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Not complaining, just stating a concerning. There is a small loss of control when you can't remove some JJ, just using them to maneuver will cause more heat then other mechs. The summoner is kind of a niche mech to begin with, between its free weight and hard points. More skill will be needed to use it and this change might up the skill needed a little more.

The trade-off will be this ... more jump jets = less time required to reach a certain altitude (assuming they scale things linearly):
- the 5-jump jet Summoner will require one second to reach a certain height (and generate a certain amount of heat)
- a 2-jump jet Cataphract will require 2.5 seconds to reach the same height (and generate the same amount of heat)

The other trade off (compared to IS 'mechs) is the ability to swap hard points around by changing out omnipods. (BTW - I don't think that jump jets should be optional on clan 'mech omnipods ... they should be hard-wired like heat sinks, etc.)

[Estonniel]

In a way, even if i dont mind seeing sometimes a Jump Shooting mech sometimes. seeing 8+ all with the same builds and covering the play field as if a horde of Skippy Kangaroo mechs coming at you. did make me think of a few ways to make it so that the general gaming club isnt so fuzzed up about the meta squads all to much anymore.

What about adding this whole power required story from more then 2 gauss to the formula as well to Jump jet weapon use. Any High powered weapon is unable to be used due to the power requirements to jump yet, say any single weapon doing more then 7dmg. like at best clan ER Medium lasers and below. and all other weapons are turned off until you release the Jump button so the weapons doing more then 7 dmg recharge "as if fired" to be usable again.

a little minor heat generation is not going to effect a lot. unless you Jump jet up. and shoot 2x PPC / ERPPC / C-ERPPC. and instantly shut down taking heat dmg per jump attempt, would be another thing. every jump shot giving 10% CT dmg. due to reactor heat overload using high powered weapons.

i took a pause of the game a little and saw the end of may tournament 12v12's and i wonder did this game fully evolve into Jump PPC online ? 8 to 10 mechs on both sides running the same builds. its like counterstrike. bunny hopping your way around. and making every other weapon available simply seem pointless. just imagine a whole game just with JJ mechs and all running the same builds.

Now i didnt mind seeing groups of em sometimes but Jump Jets + weapon fire should have major drawbacks (recoil midair preventing the use of big guns + Massive heat penalty + maybe instant shutdown after using high powered weapons due to Jump Jet use) seem simulator based realistic. Raven 4x + AC 20 Mid flight Shoots and gets knocked over midair would be funny.

[Gorgo7]

Estonniel,

Very interesting take with the recharge of the heavy weapons. I don't think I could support it personally. I like the idea of landing and firing my weapons at my opponent from close range as opposed to jump sniping.
I do like your thinking though.

Very original! Cheers!

[Fire and Salt]

The problem is actually that the formula for jump height is all wrong.
It seems to be:
Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
Where
Jh is the Max Jump Height (in M)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant jump height, per jumpjet (in M)
Gm is the gravity multiplier of the planet (a multiplier in relation to terra)




Really, you should be calculating acceleration, instead of height, like so:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Where
Am is the acceleration of the mech (in M/S^2)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant acceleration, per jumpjet (in M/S^2)
Ag is the gravitational acceleration caused by the planet (In M/S^2 a negative number, ex: -9.81 M/S^2 for 1x gravity)
When Am is positive, the mech is accelerating upwards (this includes falling and decelerating), when it is 0, it is traveling at constant speed (up or down) and when it is negative, it is accelerating downwards (though it may still be moving up.)

Also - the total burn time should be the same, regardless of the number of jets. The jets work in parallel, not in series.
For the sake of this post, I will assume they burn for 1 second.

Not only is this more technically correct, it also solves the problem of a single jumpjet being overly useful:
Consider the following example:
Lets say we assign the Spider an acceleration of of 12 M/S^2 per jumpjet.
Assume we are on a normal map with 1x gravity, so Ag is 9.81 M/S^2.

Now solve for 1 jumpjet:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (1 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 2.19
So the mechs acceleration is only 2.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 1.1 meters high, and the jumpjet will run out
About 1/4 to 1/5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 1.35 meters above the gound.

Now solve for 2 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (2 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 14.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 14.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 7.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 1.5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 17.3 meters above the ground.

Now solve for 6 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (6 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 62.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 62.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account. Thats like 6Gs!
After 1 second, the mech will be about 31.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 6.33 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 228 meters above the gound.
...
The mech will then plummet for about 6.8 seconds, before slamming into an enemy direwolf at 240kph, completely destroying his head as well as your legs.
...
It would be insane to try to jump this high in anything but a Spider 5v, though because you need lots of jets left to cushion the landing.
I would also cap the acceleration at like 6 jumpjets worth, due to 'structural limitations' and possible game engine limitations as well.
so 1-6 jumpjets give you varying acceleration for 1.0s
while 7-12 jumpjets give you the same aceleration as 6 jets, but with a longer burntime. 12 jumpjets being a full 2 seconds.




I know this will never happen, though, because it would be far too awesome.






But, how about a half-way point, by tweaking your current Jump Height formula, from:
Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
To:
Jh = (Ct * Mc) - (5*Gm)

So basically, each jumpjet may allow 6 meter jumps, but (normal) gravity negates 5 meters over a 1.0s burn time.
So:
1 jet = 1 meter
2 jets = 7 meters
3 jets = 13 meters
4 jets = 19 meters
5 jets = 25 meters
6 jets = 31 meters
...
12 jets = 67 meters


This also allows you to scale the heat linearly based on the number of jumpjets used, yet still favor mechs with more jumpjets.
Say each jumpjet created 5 heat / second, and we need to jump onto a 7 meter object.
with 2 jets, we burn them both for a full second, create 10 heat (2*5*1), and reach 7 meters.
with 3 jets, we only need to burn them for around .55 seconds so we create 8.25 heat (3*5*.55)
with 4 jets, we only need to burn them for around .37 seconds so we create 7.4 heat (4*5*.37)

Balance aside, this is actually realistic. This is very similar to the reason that airliners fly with a higher throttle setting when they are facing a headwind - they have to counter the headwind for the duration of their trip, so by going faster, they have to counter less headwind total. They actually save fuel in regards to gound distance traveled, even though their fuel consuption per air distance traveled increases - they travel less air distance because the air currents don't have as much time to push them away from their destination, so they save fuel overall. Same applies for jumpjets and countering the force of gravity - we can save on total heat generated by applying more thrust over a shorter duration. In Mechwarrior, we do this by adding more jumpjets.



Now, on to the next issue: Why the Highlander is crap.
You guys applied a smooth scale of jumpjet performance to a stepped scale of jumpjet weights.
This means that the first mech to move up to a heaver jumpjet gets crapped on (Highlander, Quickdraw, Light mechs)
And the heaviest mech in a jumpjet class gets a bonus (Shadowhawk, Victor)
You need to fix this by changing the height per jumpjet for these mechs.
A highlander should be BETTER with a single jumpjet than a Victor is with a single jumpjet because 1 ton vs 2 tons is more singificant than 80 tons vs 90 tons.
I realize that they take the same amount of crits, so it shouldn't be 2x the force.... but 1.5x seems totally reasonable.
Take into account the weight difference, and the Highlander should jump 1.3x as high with a single jumpjet as the Victor does.
Those extreme JJ nerfs on the HGN should go to the Victor, which can easily compensate by mounting 4 JJs for a measly 4 tons.
The comparably good JJ performace of the Victor should go to the HGN (on a per-jet basis) because those things are freaking heavy!
6 tons for 3 jets on the HGN - Im willing to accept that it is a little worse than a 4 ton 4 jet Victor... but C'mon - it is WAY worse.

Buff the Highlander. (and other 90 tonners)
Buff the Quickdraw. (and other 60 tonners)
Buff the Catapult slightly. (and other 65 tonners)
Buff all lights, but especially the Spider. (Seriously, their jets weigh the same as on a medium)
Nerf the Victor. (and other 80 tonners)
Nerf the Timberwolf slightly. (and other 75 tonners)
Nerf the Shadowhawk. (and other 55 tonners)
Nerf the Nova slightly. (and other 50 tonners)
The Blackjack, Cataphract, Summoner, etc. are the most balanced, since they are in the middle of their JJ weight class.

This chassis specific nerf of course, comes after a JJ count based balancing that:
Nerfs 1 jumpjet
Nerfs 2 jumpjets slightly
3 Jumpjets are generally fine, so leave the height as-is
Buffs 4 jumpjets slightly
Buffs 5+ jumpjets
And makes the 12jj spider 5v into a rediculous leaping machine that can leg itself instantly.


FINALLY, once all the other issues are fixed, you can add heat to balance them out.





...and most importantly...
Add DFA.
The damage done to the mech on the ground should scale the same way as fall damage does.
Hell, just be lazy and add a 10x multiplier for collision damage to the head component. I don't care.
It also punishes reckless jumpsnipers for stomping all over their team-mates. I stomp on my teammates heads all of the time. I used to avoid it, back in MW4, but I see no point in MWO. It does like 1 damage.

[anonymous161]

Yeah I remember being so satisfied when I managed to jump on an enemy mech and for it to nearly kill it in mw4. I also miss having knock downs.

[Gorgo7]

Fire and Salt...Excellent post! Bravo!
The mechanics you've described are the way to go.
Obviously the one second burn time/acc has to go...this is a video game after all not a lunar lander simulator. We need fuel for landing and some time to turn mid flight etc.
The modelling you propose though, is first rate and I would love to mess with it.
Again, excellent!

[Bloodweaver]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

2 JJs is enough for most, but I already run 4 JJs on a Victor as it is, so I dunno what to tell you. JJ lift should be exponentially better with more JJs, not linearlly better which is what it happens to be right now.

It's not linear right now, actually. It's less than linear. Four jets doesn't give you twice as much of a boost as two does. If anything, it may be negatively exponential(?). Linear boost values would probably actually work perfectly, so long as we got rid of the initial "hop" that comes from just tapping the space bar.

[Cimarb]

Fire and Salt, on 09 July 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

The problem is actually that the formula for jump height is all wrong.
It seems to be:

Spoiler

Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
Where
Jh is the Max Jump Height (in M)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant jump height, per jumpjet (in M)
Gm is the gravity multiplier of the planet (a multiplier in relation to terra)

Really, you should be calculating acceleration, instead of height, like so:

Spoiler

Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Where
Am is the acceleration of the mech (in M/S^2)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant acceleration, per jumpjet (in M/S^2)
Ag is the gravitational acceleration caused by the planet (In M/S^2 a negative number, ex: -9.81 M/S^2 for 1x gravity)
When Am is positive, the mech is accelerating upwards (this includes falling and decelerating), when it is 0, it is traveling at constant speed (up or down) and when it is negative, it is accelerating downwards (though it may still be moving up.)

Also - the total burn time should be the same, regardless of the number of jets. The jets work in parallel, not in series.
For the sake of this post, I will assume they burn for 1 second.

Not only is this more technically correct, it also solves the problem of a single jumpjet being overly useful:
Consider the following example:
Lets say we assign the Spider an acceleration of of 12 M/S^2 per jumpjet.
Assume we are on a normal map with 1x gravity, so Ag is 9.81 M/S^2.

Now solve for 1 jumpjet:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (1 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 2.19
So the mechs acceleration is only 2.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 1.1 meters high, and the jumpjet will run out
About 1/4 to 1/5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 1.35 meters above the gound.

Now solve for 2 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (2 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 14.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 14.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 7.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 1.5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 17.3 meters above the ground.

Now solve for 6 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (6 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 62.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 62.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account. Thats like 6Gs!
After 1 second, the mech will be about 31.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 6.33 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 228 meters above the gound.

...
The mech will then plummet for about 6.8 seconds, before slamming into an enemy direwolf at 240kph, completely destroying his head as well as your legs.
...

Spoiler

It would be insane to try to jump this high in anything but a Spider 5v, though because you need lots of jets left to cushion the landing.
I would also cap the acceleration at like 6 jumpjets worth, due to 'structural limitations' and possible game engine limitations as well.
so 1-6 jumpjets give you varying acceleration for 1.0s
while 7-12 jumpjets give you the same aceleration as 6 jets, but with a longer burntime. 12 jumpjets being a full 2 seconds.

I know this will never happen, though, because it would be far too awesome.

But, how about a half-way point, by tweaking your current Jump Height formula, from:

Spoiler

Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
To:
Jh = (Ct * Mc) - (5*Gm)

So basically, each jumpjet may allow 6 meter jumps, but (normal) gravity negates 5 meters over a 1.0s burn time.
So:
1 jet = 1 meter
2 jets = 7 meters
3 jets = 13 meters
4 jets = 19 meters
5 jets = 25 meters
6 jets = 31 meters
...
12 jets = 67 meters

This also allows you to scale the heat linearly based on the number of jumpjets used, yet still favor mechs with more jumpjets.
Say each jumpjet created 5 heat / second, and we need to jump onto a 7 meter object.
with 2 jets, we burn them both for a full second, create 10 heat (2*5*1), and reach 7 meters.
with 3 jets, we only need to burn them for around .55 seconds so we create 8.25 heat (3*5*.55)
with 4 jets, we only need to burn them for around .37 seconds so we create 7.4 heat (4*5*.37)

Balance aside, this is actually realistic. This is very similar to the reason that airliners fly with a higher throttle setting when they are facing a headwind - they have to counter the headwind for the duration of their trip, so by going faster, they have to counter less headwind total. They actually save fuel in regards to gound distance traveled, even though their fuel consuption per air distance traveled increases - they travel less air distance because the air currents don't have as much time to push them away from their destination, so they save fuel overall. Same applies for jumpjets and countering the force of gravity - we can save on total heat generated by applying more thrust over a shorter duration. In Mechwarrior, we do this by adding more jumpjets.

Now, on to the next issue: Why the Highlander is crap.

Spoiler

You guys applied a smooth scale of jumpjet performance to a stepped scale of jumpjet weights.
This means that the first mech to move up to a heaver jumpjet gets crapped on (Highlander, Quickdraw, Light mechs)
And the heaviest mech in a jumpjet class gets a bonus (Shadowhawk, Victor)
You need to fix this by changing the height per jumpjet for these mechs.
A highlander should be BETTER with a single jumpjet than a Victor is with a single jumpjet because 1 ton vs 2 tons is more singificant than 80 tons vs 90 tons.
I realize that they take the same amount of crits, so it shouldn't be 2x the force.... but 1.5x seems totally reasonable.
Take into account the weight difference, and the Highlander should jump 1.3x as high with a single jumpjet as the Victor does.
Those extreme JJ nerfs on the HGN should go to the Victor, which can easily compensate by mounting 4 JJs for a measly 4 tons.
The comparably good JJ performace of the Victor should go to the HGN (on a per-jet basis) because those things are freaking heavy!
6 tons for 3 jets on the HGN - Im willing to accept that it is a little worse than a 4 ton 4 jet Victor... but C'mon - it is WAY worse.

Buff the Highlander. (and other 90 tonners)
Buff the Quickdraw. (and other 60 tonners)
Buff the Catapult slightly. (and other 65 tonners)
Buff all lights, but especially the Spider. (Seriously, their jets weigh the same as on a medium)
Nerf the Victor. (and other 80 tonners)
Nerf the Timberwolf slightly. (and other 75 tonners)
Nerf the Shadowhawk. (and other 55 tonners)
Nerf the Nova slightly. (and other 50 tonners)
The Blackjack, Cataphract, Summoner, etc. are the most balanced, since they are in the middle of their JJ weight class.

This chassis specific nerf of course, comes after a JJ count based balancing that:
Nerfs 1 jumpjet
Nerfs 2 jumpjets slightly
3 Jumpjets are generally fine, so leave the height as-is
Buffs 4 jumpjets slightly
Buffs 5+ jumpjets
And makes the 12jj spider 5v into a rediculous leaping machine that can leg itself instantly.

FINALLY, once all the other issues are fixed, you can add heat to balance them out.

...and most importantly...
Add DFA.

Spoiler

The damage done to the mech on the ground should scale the same way as fall damage does.
Hell, just be lazy and add a 10x multiplier for collision damage to the head component. I don't care.
It also punishes reckless jumpsnipers for stomping all over their team-mates. I stomp on my teammates heads all of the time. I used to avoid it, back in MW4, but I see no point in MWO. It does like 1 damage.

I wish I could vote for MVPost of a thread. Very excellent post, FnS. I had to spoiler most of it due to length, but it is very well thought out and explained, even to a simpleton like myself. Oh, and I want to see the Spider example happen...pls PGI?

[Prezimonto]

Alexander Malthus, on 08 June 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

PGI deviated from TT rules more than enough already. It's not BT anymore after you look at what they did to clan mechs and weapons. What's the difference here then ? It's not a problem to tweak stock builds to compensate for JJs tonnage. It's not a problem to tweak JJs classes and set them like lights&meds=0,5, heavies=1, assaults=2.

Right now VTR is one of the best assaults because of it's jumping capabilities and hardpoint layout. HGN was on par right before JJs agility was nerfed. After the nerf it barely jumps and you can't fit alot of JJs as they are 2 tonns each. Yet VTR is all the same. That's why I'm saying that in addition to jump heat VTR JJs should be balanced as well.

This is why I want different flight profiles for mechs, rather than a uniform JJ mechanic.

If you could tune a mech's flight profile... make it easier for them to get up hills, and land, turn, but not rise high (VTR/Highlander) or rise high with a bit for forward momentum but not turn easily (Catapult), overall decent but not great movement (Griffon) or wonderful movement in all directions (Spider)... then mechs would actually fill roles intended by the hardpoints/setting.

[Agent of Change]

Fire and Salt, on 09 July 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

The problem is actually that the formula for jump height is all wrong.
It seems to be:
Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
Where
Jh is the Max Jump Height (in M)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant jump height, per jumpjet (in M)
Gm is the gravity multiplier of the planet (a multiplier in relation to terra)




Really, you should be calculating acceleration, instead of height, like so:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Where
Am is the acceleration of the mech (in M/S^2)
Ct is the number of jets (no units, just a count)
Mc is the mech specific constant acceleration, per jumpjet (in M/S^2)
Ag is the gravitational acceleration caused by the planet (In M/S^2 a negative number, ex: -9.81 M/S^2 for 1x gravity)
When Am is positive, the mech is accelerating upwards (this includes falling and decelerating), when it is 0, it is traveling at constant speed (up or down) and when it is negative, it is accelerating downwards (though it may still be moving up.)

Also - the total burn time should be the same, regardless of the number of jets. The jets work in parallel, not in series.
For the sake of this post, I will assume they burn for 1 second.

Not only is this more technically correct, it also solves the problem of a single jumpjet being overly useful:
Consider the following example:
Lets say we assign the Spider an acceleration of of 12 M/S^2 per jumpjet.
Assume we are on a normal map with 1x gravity, so Ag is 9.81 M/S^2.

Now solve for 1 jumpjet:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (1 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 2.19
So the mechs acceleration is only 2.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 1.1 meters high, and the jumpjet will run out
About 1/4 to 1/5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 1.35 meters above the gound.

Now solve for 2 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (2 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 14.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 14.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account.
After 1 second, the mech will be about 7.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 1.5 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 17.3 meters above the ground.

Now solve for 6 jumpjets:
Am = (Ct * Mc) + Ag
Am = (6 * 12) - 9.81
Am = 62.19
So the mechs acceleration is now 62.19 M/S^2 after gravity is taken into account. Thats like 6Gs!
After 1 second, the mech will be about 31.1 meters high, and the jumpjets will run out
About 6.33 seconds later, the mech will reach the highest point in its trajectory, about 228 meters above the gound.
...
The mech will then plummet for about 6.8 seconds, before slamming into an enemy direwolf at 240kph, completely destroying his head as well as your legs.
...
It would be insane to try to jump this high in anything but a Spider 5v, though because you need lots of jets left to cushion the landing.
I would also cap the acceleration at like 6 jumpjets worth, due to 'structural limitations' and possible game engine limitations as well.
so 1-6 jumpjets give you varying acceleration for 1.0s
while 7-12 jumpjets give you the same aceleration as 6 jets, but with a longer burntime. 12 jumpjets being a full 2 seconds.




I know this will never happen, though, because it would be far too awesome.






But, how about a half-way point, by tweaking your current Jump Height formula, from:
Jh = Ct * Mc * (1/Gm)
To:
Jh = (Ct * Mc) - (5*Gm)

So basically, each jumpjet may allow 6 meter jumps, but (normal) gravity negates 5 meters over a 1.0s burn time.
So:
1 jet = 1 meter
2 jets = 7 meters
3 jets = 13 meters
4 jets = 19 meters
5 jets = 25 meters
6 jets = 31 meters
...
12 jets = 67 meters


This also allows you to scale the heat linearly based on the number of jumpjets used, yet still favor mechs with more jumpjets.
Say each jumpjet created 5 heat / second, and we need to jump onto a 7 meter object.
with 2 jets, we burn them both for a full second, create 10 heat (2*5*1), and reach 7 meters.
with 3 jets, we only need to burn them for around .55 seconds so we create 8.25 heat (3*5*.55)
with 4 jets, we only need to burn them for around .37 seconds so we create 7.4 heat (4*5*.37)

Balance aside, this is actually realistic. This is very similar to the reason that airliners fly with a higher throttle setting when they are facing a headwind - they have to counter the headwind for the duration of their trip, so by going faster, they have to counter less headwind total. They actually save fuel in regards to gound distance traveled, even though their fuel consuption per air distance traveled increases - they travel less air distance because the air currents don't have as much time to push them away from their destination, so they save fuel overall. Same applies for jumpjets and countering the force of gravity - we can save on total heat generated by applying more thrust over a shorter duration. In Mechwarrior, we do this by adding more jumpjets.



Now, on to the next issue: Why the Highlander is crap.
You guys applied a smooth scale of jumpjet performance to a stepped scale of jumpjet weights.
This means that the first mech to move up to a heaver jumpjet gets crapped on (Highlander, Quickdraw, Light mechs)
And the heaviest mech in a jumpjet class gets a bonus (Shadowhawk, Victor)
You need to fix this by changing the height per jumpjet for these mechs.
A highlander should be BETTER with a single jumpjet than a Victor is with a single jumpjet because 1 ton vs 2 tons is more singificant than 80 tons vs 90 tons.
I realize that they take the same amount of crits, so it shouldn't be 2x the force.... but 1.5x seems totally reasonable.
Take into account the weight difference, and the Highlander should jump 1.3x as high with a single jumpjet as the Victor does.
Those extreme JJ nerfs on the HGN should go to the Victor, which can easily compensate by mounting 4 JJs for a measly 4 tons.
The comparably good JJ performace of the Victor should go to the HGN (on a per-jet basis) because those things are freaking heavy!
6 tons for 3 jets on the HGN - Im willing to accept that it is a little worse than a 4 ton 4 jet Victor... but C'mon - it is WAY worse.

Buff the Highlander. (and other 90 tonners)
Buff the Quickdraw. (and other 60 tonners)
Buff the Catapult slightly. (and other 65 tonners)
Buff all lights, but especially the Spider. (Seriously, their jets weigh the same as on a medium)
Nerf the Victor. (and other 80 tonners)
Nerf the Timberwolf slightly. (and other 75 tonners)
Nerf the Shadowhawk. (and other 55 tonners)
Nerf the Nova slightly. (and other 50 tonners)
The Blackjack, Cataphract, Summoner, etc. are the most balanced, since they are in the middle of their JJ weight class.

This chassis specific nerf of course, comes after a JJ count based balancing that:
Nerfs 1 jumpjet
Nerfs 2 jumpjets slightly
3 Jumpjets are generally fine, so leave the height as-is
Buffs 4 jumpjets slightly
Buffs 5+ jumpjets
And makes the 12jj spider 5v into a rediculous leaping machine that can leg itself instantly.


FINALLY, once all the other issues are fixed, you can add heat to balance them out.





...and most importantly...
Add DFA.
The damage done to the mech on the ground should scale the same way as fall damage does.
Hell, just be lazy and add a 10x multiplier for collision damage to the head component. I don't care.
It also punishes reckless jumpsnipers for stomping all over their team-mates. I stomp on my teammates heads all of the time. I used to avoid it, back in MW4, but I see no point in MWO. It does like 1 damage.

I'm quoting this in it's entirety because it is a great well thought out explanation, using real math and actual coherent thought.

If only we could see something like this.