208 replies to this topic

[Relic1701]

Will the Highlander have a reduction in leg damage due to the upgraded actuators it has for the 'Highlander Burial' it is famous for? Say 10% would be a nice quirk.

[Wintersdark]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 07 June 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

So, it would seem the new falling damage rule would also apply to any non-JJ mech that falls a great distance, such as an Atlas that falls off one of the cliff sides of the I9 hill on Alpine. This means non-JJ brawling mechs would get a nerf, too!

Only if they're falling for more than one second. This is highly unlikely, as you tend to "land" multiple times mid-fall on maps like Alpine.

[D34K]

This is another perfect example of why the game keeps getting broken; the lessons just aren't being learned and PGI -- despite their good intentions here -- is listening to the wrong people once again. This "fix", if implemented, will not "solve" poptarting and it will not make brawling more viable.

Listen to the top teams from the recent tournament; they understand the current meta and will have more useful ideas about how to even its curve (from new player to skill player). Anyone posting here along the lines of "yay, this will stop the evil poptarts" is not going to make the game better -- they're coming from the wrong place and they just don't get it. They will end up even more the victims of the jump jet game mechanic.

This is going to be another ghost heat and I'm afraid the playerbase can't take another hit like that.

[YueFei]

D34K, on 07 June 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

This is another perfect example of why the game keeps getting broken; the lessons just aren't being learned and PGI -- despite their good intentions here -- is listening to the wrong people once again. This "fix", if implemented, will not "solve" poptarting and it will not make brawling more viable.

Listen to the top teams from the recent tournament; they understand the current meta and will have more useful ideas about how to even its curve (from new player to skill player). Anyone posting here along the lines of "yay, this will stop the evil poptarts" is not going to make the game better -- they're coming from the wrong place and they just don't get it. They will end up even more the victims of the jump jet game mechanic.

This is going to be another ghost heat and I'm afraid the playerbase can't take another hit like that.

Exactly. This aims a nerf gun, misses the intended target, and ends up hitting innocent bystanders.

Jump snipers make the shortest jump possible to clear their weapons to fire. They don't jump waaaay up and make themselves an easy target to be hit. Meanwhile other people trying to use their jets for big jumps have to change how they play, or wreck their legs. Leaps that used to be possible to make now, won't be possible in the future without suffering significant leg damage.

And the non-JJ mechs get screwed some more. Imagine you try to drop off a ledge to evade the heat coming your way. You don't have JJ's to cushion your fall. This change makes JJs even more mandatory (as if the hill-climbing restrictions didn't already do that).

I can already picture my Centurion running up the ramp on HPG, taking a few potshots, and then running off the ledge and destroying my own legs. =/

[Valdemaar]

YueFei, on 06 June 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

There are mechs without JJ's, and Light mechs without JJs tend to wreck their legs just from running around on uneven terrain.

Kinda reminds me of the fall-damage that Warriors sometimes took in World-of-Warcraft when charging. Use charge to run at an opponent, at 100% health, and then drop dead instantly from fatal fall damage.

True, but they also mentioned that only falling for 'x' amount of time would trigger the damage.

[condor1X1]

This sounds like a nice idea.


Each Mech takes equal fall damage based on % of their weight class.....but;

"the armor a Meh brings into the battle"

does that mean the whole armor count of the Mech ...or just the legs?



Also... "fall speed and time in air"


for an example..... lets say im piloting a spider that is going 150Kph and I have 4 JJs and i do a full Jump.....and i land on the ground doing fall damage.


Would that same jump in a spider that is not moving do the same damage? ....(i jumped straight up in the air and landed with out moving forward)



Another thing that is not as relavant.....is like the atals and banshee ,which dont have JJs and are the heaviest of mechs....that kinda hurts them when they fall off a ledge ...i know i just thought id throw it in there


Honestly i dont really like envrio damage effects at all but i know its in the TT version....


and also i dont really think it will effect poptarts at all either they will just drop some wieght to add more JJs.... and still poptart.


thx for reading.

[Xolin]

Does this account for blaring the JJs right before you hit the ground to soften the landing?

I'm assuming it does....

[ImperialKnight]

Light mechs should not take fall damage and Class V JJs should produce no heat. Stop nerfing a class that already nobody wants to play

[Galenit]

3 Points i would change:

1. Falldamage should have no max., if you drop from to high, you should smash your legs.
Dont know why they chosed 30/60 for the min/max speed of dropping?

2. Fall damage should go to the legs and the gyro (center) internals.
Its not the armor its the structur that gets damaged.
Dont know if the damage in the formular posted goes to one leg or if its divided to both legs?

3. You should be able to slow down your fall with jumpjets to 0 damage, but you need some fuel to do it.
Maybe this is allready covered in the fallspeedpart?

Edit:

And a question:
Why this complicated system?
You have the fallspeed and the weight, physics give you the impactforce, take some resistence for each weightclass in the formular and thats all you need.

Time in the air means nothing, impactforce its whats damages you.

Edited by Galenit, 07 June 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Li Song]

Lets go back to physics instead of making convoluted solutions please!

Assume a mech is falling with vertical speed: X [m/s]. As the mech lands it will optimally flex it's legs in an effort to reduce the impulse of hitting the ground. As the mech hit's the ground assume that it de-accelerates with rate 'a' [m/s2] until it reaches vertical speed zero. We simplify and let 'a' be a constant (in reality it should be a critically dampened spring system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping).

So we have: "X - a*K = 0" where K is the number of seconds the impact takes until the mech reaches equilibrium.

We know that the impulse is the integral of the force from the impact time until equilibrium is reached. If 'a' is constant then the integral of the force is:

I = K*m*a

where 'I' is the impulse and 'm' is the mass of the mech. Solving for 'a' from the first equation gives us: a = X/K. Inserted into the above:

I = K * m * X / K = m *X

In other words, the impulse delivered to the legs is: Impulse = Mass * FallSpeed.

So please PGI, I beg of you, do the physically correct thing and just let the fall damage be proportional to "mass*fallspeed" and save yourself and us a big hassle.

If you want to go one step further you can say that a mech has about 1-3m of flex in the legs and calculate the duration of the impact ('K' above) using that and get the acceleration and you can have thresholds and break internal items if the forces are too strong.

Edited by Li Song, 07 June 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Zordicron]

Fall dmg as I see it:

The original issue:
I take (1) Locust and (1) Atlas. I take them both to the same ledge in tourmaline, or FC, or alpine or wherever.

I drop the atlas off the ledge, it is about the same distance as the actual height of the atlas. Atlas takes zero fall dmg.
I drop the locust off the same ledge. because the locust is shorter, it is a drop more then the height of the locust, perhaps twice the height of the locust, or 2.5 times(IMO locust is about half the height of an atlas). The Locust takes leg dmg.

Speed here doesnt matter, if i take the atlas off at 20kph and the locust at 20kph the same result occurs. Tonnage was never factored in.

THAT WAS THE ISSUE. The light mech that requires speed and maneuvers to survive, and logically should be able to handle a resonable fall better then a heavier mech, took dmg, while the 100 ton monster could drop twice it's own towering height for zero dmg. Combine this with how a light mech has it's legs targeted 50x more often, and how losing said leg = game over, and it comes off as a severe, severe penalty to not have JJ on a light mech, where the Fatlas it is almost irrelevent in the fall scenario.

Changes coming down the pipe: DO NOTHING TO CHANGE THIS. Nowhere in this fix does it say anything other then fall time, which on the two mechs I mention is so close to identicle it doesnt matter. The only thing I can see that may be a boon is in the falls where the heavy took no dmg, perhaps now the light wont either, where in reality it should just be reversed. the light should have an advantage in navigating terrain, especially bad terrain with some drop offs etc, and the heavier mech should have the penalty. Right now:totally opposite, atlas can handle drops much better then a scout mech. NEW PATCH: maybe puts them on even standing, better then nothing. WHAT IT SHOULD BE: heavy takes dmg from smaller(shorter) drops then light mechs.

Summary: Imagine you are standing at a ten foot drop off, wall or otherwise.

You hop down off it, just yourself. Yes, might be a rough landing, ten feet is a long way. but you should be fine, get up and run off.
Now you ride a bike of the edge.(medium mech) Hmm, well thats going to be a lot rougher landing, might get some bruises or a little worse, hopefully your bike is ok, should be able to ride off, or at least get up and keep moving.
Now you drive a dumptruck off the ledge. (Atlas) Uhhh... well, smash, now there you are, your truck is l;ikely rolled over or otherwise destroyed.

In the current game, taking yourself and skiing down alpine = 20% of your leg is busted, while driving the dumptruck down the same slope = perfectly fine. It is completely backwards, and the next patch will just make both mechs take a similar % dmg, where as it should actually be reversed instead.

In short: lighter should be able to handle the smaller drops better then heavier. Putting all mechs on a one second drop timer is I suppose a uniform easyer solution to implement or code, but it is not the "right" solution. having the timer made on a per chassis(weight class) method not only would make it tweakable per chassis, it would allow the dev team to customize even same tonnage chassis to add quirks.

[Gorgo7]

Excellent!

[Cest7]

Does this mean that collision may get worked on soon?

[Ryvucz]

Can't wait to see this implemented, especially for those that store ammo in their legs.

[Goose]

… Damage should be straight to the internal structure …

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I am not sure where the whole Leg Armor fits into the equation. More important aspects are weight, internal structure, and actuators.

I would so like to point out that a Jenner weighs about 40% of a Highlander, and can carry about 40% of the leg armor of a Highlander, so why does it take only 10% of the damage? If both dropped from a hight of X and suffered maximum damage to their legs, the Jenner could survive 34 falls, while the Highlander only manages 7.

[Watchit]

Really liking the falling damage changes! A great improvement for sure!

Though, I am worried about their tendency to use weight classes instead of tonnage for these kind of things, further increasing the appeal of mechs on the higher tonnage end of the weight classes. Why take a 60 ton mech over a 55 ton or 65 ton mech if the 60 ton mech magically has worse penalties then the 55 ton mech and less tonnage to work with than the 65 ton mech for the same penalty?

Edited by Watchit, 07 June 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[Butane9000]

I agree with this and the heat scaling. Any nerf to poptarts is a good thing.

[YueFei]

Valdemaar, on 07 June 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

True, but they also mentioned that only falling for 'x' amount of time would trigger the damage.

They mentioned 1 second. To fall for 1 second on a planet with roughly 1g (say, 10 meters/sec^2), you need to fall from a height of about 5 meters. Do the math, and double-check for yourself.

That's less than 1 mech height. A Centurion is 14 meters tall. Falling from something less than waist-height would result in leg damage to a Centurion.

Kind've like how Light mechs without JJ's running over un-even terrain already wreck their legs just from running around.

Butane9000, on 07 June 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

I agree with this and the heat scaling. Any nerf to poptarts is a good thing.

This won't nerf poptarts. They jump the very shortest height possible to barely clear their guns to fire. It's like an 8 meter jump, after which they have JJ's to cushion their fall.

Everyone else who isn't poptarting with JJs, and are instead using their JJs for big air and giant leaps? They are the ones who are gonna destroy their legs.

Non-JJ mechs like the Centurion are gonna trash their legs just falling from something less than half its height.

This nerf gun is gonna miss the mark and end up hitting innocent bystanders.

[Blue Boutique]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 June 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I am not sure where the whole Leg Armor fits into the equation. More important aspects are weight, internal structure, and actuators.

You can say that the designers incorporated the armor into help reduce the stress load on the legs so the calculation for fall damage will be catastrophic to those who bring in less than 20% leg armor.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 07 June 2014 - 06:52 PM.