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Clan And Is Weapon Update - Feedback


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#21 Lightfoot

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:25 PM

Will the Clan LB-20X be able to split it's criticals into adjacent mech sections as in Battletech?

#22 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:26 PM

In contrast to the epic LRM fumble, I actually think their plan for Clan ERPPCs sounds decent. You have 15 heat compared to 10 for I.S. PPCs but you get to do up to 5 extra damage and hopefully they will also weigh 1 ton less and take 1 slot less. And of course no minimum range.

The fact that there's people above worrying they will be both underpowered and overpowered suggests they may be close to the sweet spot balance wise.

#23 Livewyr

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:28 PM

Gauss: understood. . I actually just read the Phelan Wolf fight in the book, so that doesn't bother me.

LBX- not ideal, but it is what I world have done given the same situation, as a stop gap.

ERPPC, this frustrates me. The more I read about the balancing to the clans, the more I think: DOA.

Omni customization, interesting, but it's the only customization. Period.
FLD: I.S. ONLY. (When really, nothing should have it. (Even the PPC had a slight "burn time" being effectively lightning)
The advantage all of this nerfing is trying to counter, the formidable weapons package, is effectively being nullified before it earns the nerfs.

I think the clan mechs are slowly turning into ultra missile boats, and LBX-AC 20 boats, before they get here.

#24 Mcgral18

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:28 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 07 June 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Will the Clan LB-20X be able to split it's criticals into adjacent mech sections as in Battletech?


They stated awhile back there wouldn't be crit-splitting. They haven't really mentioned it since then. I think it was in one of the ATDs?

#25 Khobai

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:29 PM

Quote

In contrast to the epic LRM fumble, I actually think their plan for Clan ERPPCs sounds decent. You have 15 heat compared to 10 for I.S. PPCs but you get to do up to 5 extra damage and hopefully they will also weigh 1 ton less and take 1 slot less. And of course no minimum range.


Completely agree. Its actually better than the IS PPC. Because even though its doing the 5 arcing damage, it has no min range, and a better max range. Plus it takes up less tonnage and crits. And on top of that clan mechs can slot more heatsinks. CERPPC is 100% fine at 15 heat. However the IS ERPPC needs its heat reduced to 13-14.

#26 Snowseth

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:34 PM

Not a fan of the LRM solution.
They're supposed to full damage even at 1m, so let each missile do that.

Instead, give them a very wide spread. With the maximum spread at 90m and reducing to IS spreads at 180m.
By wide spread, I mean at 90m at most half of the launched missiles will hit an Atlas.
And that spread will guarantee that the damage is distributed over pretty much the whole mech.
Each missile still does full damage, but the volley will do, at best, 50% possible damage and not even close to being in one component.

Point blank firing will still allow for focused damage, of course. Meaning it like a lower damage, more dispersed SRM at ranges less than 180m.

But actually directly reducing missile damage seems to be a not so good solution.
Not that I've actually played with the new LRMs yet (obviously) ... so what do I know!

edit

Actually ... if the damage scaling is being done to ensure max possible damage is roughly 50% at ~90m, and higher (~75% per missile) 0-90m, and 100% per missile at 180+m... it'd be functionally the same.
So ... never mind?

Edited by Snowseth, 07 June 2014 - 09:43 PM.


#27 Cavendish

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:44 PM

View PostKhobai, on 07 June 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:


Completely agree. Its actually better than the IS PPC. Because even though its doing the 5 arcing damage, it has no min range, and a better max range. Plus it takes up less tonnage and crits. And on top of that clan mechs can slot more heatsinks. CERPPC is 100% fine at 15 heat. However the IS ERPPC needs its heat reduced to 13-14.


I dont know if I agree with you here. Clans do not have the option to use "regular" PPCs and if you look at the Adder for example you will have a mech with 11 DHS that runs 2 CERPPCs .... so in essense it shoots once then you have a break for a quick smoke while it cools down. To me, at least, it sort of makes the prime Adder a build that is hidiously DOA, 2 energy hardpoints on a 35 ton mech while Jenners runs around with 6?

I hate to drag up the TT game since it is really not a good foundation to build a Mechwarrior game on, but since they are using it for hardpoint design they need to recognize that the reason for the Clan mechs having fewer hardpoints was 1) the Omni system (which is sorta inferior to the IS mech system of customization we already have here, everyone is a special snowflake) and 2) the Clan weapons were rediculously overpowered (which they will not be here). In the MWO translation they kept the limitations but since the situation is reeeeaaaalllly diffrent here they are ending up culling a lot of mechs. While I do not wish to have the Clan weapons as the TT (because lets face it, it would ruin the game) I think they should have looked at the hardpoints on the Clan mechs and modified them by bumping up the numbers slightly,

#28 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:46 PM

Gauss Rifles ... only 2 Gauss Rifles can be charged at one time.
This is very interesting.

Clan ER-PPC ... spreading its damage across multiple components.
Doesn't suck ... to all the "but the heat!" cries out there, remember that Clan DHS only take 2 slots.

Clan LBX Cluster vs Slug ... one off weapon type ...
Very interested to see how this works in practice. Even more interested to see how ammo switching is going to work.

Clan LRM Minimum Range ... have not had the time to get this fully working for the Clan launch.
I can't help but wonder, was there any design work done on the Clan 'mechs before they were announced? I'm guessing, "no".

I greatly appreciate the increased information flow, and hope that it keeps coming. However, someone needs to feed back to whoever is doing your marketing that trying to sell stuff that hasn't been at least partially fleshed out upsets your customers.

#29 Phlinger

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:46 PM

So.... with all these changes going in, how are IS weapons being handled? Same as they currently are?

Why doesn't the IS PPC get splash damage?

Why don't IS AC's do dot damage?

Seriously, if you are going to normalize it, then normalize it all around. Don't sell a bunch of Clan mechs with certain builds, the Adder and the Summoner come to mind and then say that the build that those come with (Which was terrifying in BT) isn't feasible in the current meta. The Summoner can only field 23 tons of weapons, on a 70 ton mech. What good will they do if the LRM's won't fire at close range, the AC does DoT damage and the PPC splashes. Wet noodle indeed.

#30 SpiralFace

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:47 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 07 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

While tri-Gauss Ilyas get an indirect nerf (they are already glass cannons as they are), the ERPPC is still "perfect" for the FLD meta.

LRMs... why does it feel like you did this all at the last minute?


These are for clan weapons, so Ilya still gets her tripple Gauss. Only the clans will be limited by it.

Still, 4 guass rifles fired 2 at a time in rapid succession still seems super nasty to me.

#31 Deathlike

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:49 PM

View PostSpiralFace, on 07 June 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:


These are for clan weapons, so Ilya still gets her tripple Gauss. Only the clans will be limited by it.

Still, 4 guass rifles fired 2 at a time in rapid succession still seems super nasty to me.


Please reread what Paul wrote.

Quote


Gauss Rifles
The Gauss Rifle will operate as is but only 2 Gauss Rifles can be charged at one time. For example, the Dire Wolf 'Mech can theoretically equip 4 Gauss Rifles. This would be VERY nasty on the battlefield since Gauss Rifles do not generate heat and can sync their charges all at the same time. Due to the amount of energy it takes to charge a Gauss Rifle, any given 'Mech can only charge and sustain 2 Guass Rifles at any one time. If you put all 4 Gauss Rifles on the same weapon group and hit and hold the key, you will see that only 2 of them will charge. If you do not fire them, the two charged weapons will discharge and the other two Gauss Rifles will instantly start charging. If you do fire the first two Gauss Rifles, you can start charging the other two immediately. Basically this translates to only being able to fire 2 Gauss Rifles at the same time. This mechanic will also be carried over to the Inner Sphere version of the Gauss Rifle.


#32 Redshift2k5

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:51 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 07 June 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:



I think the clan mechs are slowly turning into ultra missile boats, and LBX-AC 20 boats, before they get here.


Go look at the damage:heat:weight for clan medium lasers. The CERLL and CLPL should be pretty nasty too if you make that range advantage work in your favour.

#33 FupDup

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:51 PM

What is Clans? Baby don't nerf me, don't nerf me, no more.

#34 SpiralFace

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:52 PM

sorry was in a game when this dropped and missed that part.

No major loss. I guess we can call this one the "B33f nerf."

#35 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:54 PM

View PostSnowseth, on 07 June 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Not that I've actually played with the new LRMs yet (obviously) ... so what do I know!


Don't worry, no one at PGI has either from the sounds of it.

#36 Khobai

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:55 PM

Quote

I dont know if I agree with you here. Clans do not have the option to use "regular" PPCs and if you look at the Adder for example you will have a mech with 11 DHS that runs 2 CERPPCs .... so in essense it shoots once then you have a break for a quick smoke while it cools down.


You just have to think of it like 2 CERPPCs = 3 ISPPCs and then its fine.

#37 Koniving

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:56 PM

View PostCavendish, on 07 June 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:


I dont know if I agree with you here. Clans do not have the option to use "regular" PPCs and if you look at the Adder for example you will have a mech with 11 DHS that runs 2 CERPPCs .... so in essense it shoots once then you have a break for a quick smoke while it cools down. To me, at least, it sort of makes the prime Adder a build that is hidiously DOA, 2 energy hardpoints on a 35 ton mech while Jenners runs around with 6?


All mechs by lore chainfired their weapons as a standard (obviously there are many stories, vids, etc. of firing 2 or 3 weapons at once but for the most part if those penalties on the 30 threshold scale truly mattered you'd be chain firing too). In no situation is this more true than PPCs and ER PPCs. Even the Warhawk with 20 DHS can still fire within 30 threshold, without ever hitting 30, by chain firing the 4 ER PPCs one at a time with a spacing of 2 to 3 seconds between each one. The Adder, the Awesome, and various others are no exception.

Of course... All autocannons by lore (the books, the tech manuals, etc., and obviously not encompassed in the tabletop itself despite being in the manuals, fluff, and even the advanced rules) fired multiple rounds to reach x damage. That AC/10? Anywhere from 6 (120mm at 1.666666666666667 damage per shot) to 20 shots (80mm at 0.5 damage per shot) to get 10 damage.

Besides, switch arms on the Adder. I'm quite certain there are 2 and 3 hardpoint variations. There are Adders with multiple laser weapons on the arms. Even some with autocannons.

(For more information and demonstrations for anyone interested...)

MWO's heatsink superiority to TT proven + "the Awesome spits at Ghost Heat because it's still superior firepower to TT paradox."
Spoiler


Warhawk demonstration. Basic.
Spoiler


Warhawk and Awesome demonstration, both 'literal conversion' and 'lore conversion' (for the Awesome) which explains how a twin ER PPC firing is possible even within 30 threshold (gradual heat as opposed to MWO's heat spikes). Advanced. This one includes the tabletop penalty system as applied in real time, mech actions, movement, etc (Warhawk).
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 07 June 2014 - 10:41 PM.


#38 Cimarb

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:58 PM

View PostKoniving, on 07 June 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

So, ultimately every concept, every idea, everything ever spouted about ways to help reduce pinpoint damage and de-meta the game for the Inner sphere to develop a fun experience for all... has been applied exclusively to the Clans.

Well, we won't have to worry about the Clans being overpowered. Even with the almighty targeting computer, they are effectively incapable of pinpoint with anything except the Gauss Rifle. (That's not a bad thing... but it doesn't change Inner Sphere essentially outclassing everything. Is their pinpoint part of the balance?)

I am still hoping these changes are just tests to see if they can balance different manufacturer variants of the weapons. THAT is what I want out of CW - real weapons variants that depend on what planets you hold.

#39 Homeless Bill

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:58 PM

Gauss Rifles

Sigh. This is just getting ridiculously sloppy. Sure, it solves one weapon combination. Why not just tie this all in to Ghost Heat instead of making a million weird, arbitrary rules?

Not that it matters anyways. It won't be 3xGauss or 4xGauss. It's going to be 2xGauss + 2xERPPC. That's 50 points of pinpoint damage plus another 10 spread around. Or 2xGauss + AC/20 + ERPPC. Or whatever.

Why are there so many rules that are so damned easy to dance around??

ERPPC

Reasonable. Better than full pinpoint damage and better than nerfing it to 10 damage and killing the lights.

LBX

Sure. Whatever. Sounds good.

LRM Minimum Range

Sounds good.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 07 June 2014 - 09:59 PM.


#40 Mister Blastman

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:59 PM

Hahahahaahahahahahaahahaahahahahaha.



I'm glad I haven't put any money into the Clan packs. This is going to be hilarious. They're getting all the nerfs while the IS stuff will just be walking around laughing as they smash their faces.





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