458 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Shredhead, on 15 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

CGauß + CERPPC, boating CUAC5/10, CSRM6, CERSL and CMPL are completely OP and beyond manageable with ghost heat!
Having no drawback to losing a side torso with XL engine makes mechs completely OP!
Being able to carry 2-3 times the amount of firepower of an IS mech without even slight heat problems is completely effed up!

You knew all this from the beginning and did jack **** about it!

Dude, did you even test the clan mechs?

I just had my Daishi's face caved in by a Battlemaster. Seriously. Before you speak, actually see what's going on. The clan mechs are extremely well balanced with IS mechs, even after full elites.

Get on the test server and see what's going on. Otherwise, wait until Tuesday, and THEN complain. Because it seems to me that you haven't tested IS mechs against Clan mechs.

[Cimarb]

Shredhead, on 15 June 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

CGauß + CERPPC, boating CUAC5/10, CSRM6, CERSL and CMPL are completely OP and beyond manageable with ghost heat!
Having no drawback to losing a side torso with XL engine makes mechs completely OP!
Being able to carry 2-3 times the amount of firepower of an IS mech without even slight heat problems is completely effed up!

You knew all this from the beginning and did jack **** about it!

What Walker said. Actually try them out before spewing your opinion.

[Shredhead]

IraqiWalker, on 15 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Dude, did you even test the clan mechs?

I just had my Daishi's face caved in by a Battlemaster. Seriously. Before you speak, actually see what's going on. The clan mechs are extremely well balanced with IS mechs, even after full elites.

Get on the test server and see what's going on. Otherwise, wait until Tuesday, and THEN complain. Because it seems to me that you haven't tested IS mechs against Clan mechs.

Cimarb, on 15 June 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

What Walker said. Actually try them out before spewing your opinion.

I will definitely not pay money. I was testing enough in my IS mechs to see how ridiculously OP those clan mechs are.
You can carry twice the payload of a Battlemaster and lose? Sad to break the news to you, but you're either bad, or you ran it stock.
2 CGauß + 2 CERPPCs can oneshot an XL fitted Cataphract through the side torso. Take 4 CUAC10 and that Battlemaster won't survive 5 seconds.
And I "spew" my observations as I made them. Or do you think a guy that believes in fairy tales can keep me from it?

[IraqiWalker]

Shredhead, on 15 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

I will definitely not pay money. I was testing enough in my IS mechs to see how ridiculously OP those clan mechs are.
You can carry twice the payload of a Battlemaster and lose? Sad to break the news to you, but you're either bad, or you ran it stock.
2 CGauß + 2 CERPPCs can oneshot an XL fitted Cataphract through the side torso. Take 4 CUAC10 and that Battlemaster won't survive 5 seconds.
And I "spew" my observations as I made them. Or do you think a guy that believes in fairy tales can keep me from it?

You clearly didn't test properly then. I played IS mechs, and had no problems killing Clan brawlers in an Orion. It's not even the best brawling mech in the IS arsenal and I still crunched a lot of mechs.

So far, many players have been saying that the clans might end up being annihilated in a long range fire fight.

Yeah, clan mechs can carry lots of firepower, it's all splash and spread shot firepower. No PP FLD.

[Igor Kozyrev]

We really need some tweaking for C SSRM's. Current cooldown time is atrocious.
I propose to count the amount of missiles that should be reloaded simultaneously (including all current cooldowns, so chainfire will count as simultaneous reload). For example, if total number is more that 16, cooldown would be the same as now. From 10 to 16 - slightly lesser than now, 6-10 - even lesser, and 2-6 — the fastest cooldown (same as for IS SSRM's). It seems perfectly logical, it nerfs 5xCSSRM Summoners and it allows clan lights to use streaks.
Please, PGI, something must be done.

Edited by Igor Kozyrev, 15 June 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Shredhead, on 15 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

I will definitely not pay money. I was testing enough in my IS mechs to see how ridiculously OP those clan mechs are.
You can carry twice the payload of a Battlemaster and lose? Sad to break the news to you, but you're either bad, or you ran it stock.
2 CGauß + 2 CERPPCs can oneshot an XL fitted Cataphract through the side torso. Take 4 CUAC10 and that Battlemaster won't survive 5 seconds.
And I "spew" my observations as I made them. Or do you think a guy that believes in fairy tales can keep me from it?

Lol...when I wasn't driving my Clan mechs, I was doing 500-600 damage in an Awesome. Clan mechs have their own deficiencies. Solid pilots will adapt...others below that level will perish badly though.

SRMs will be deadly. Also, only the Kit Fox has ECM AFAIK so the Clans will be susceptible to LRMs themselves.

[Tuann]

It's remarkably balanced.

IS lights do the dance of death around you, clan mechs(lights) are far less mobile.
IS metabuilds rip you open in an instant
Clan heavies are more mobile than their IS heavy counter parts
Clan mechs generally pack heavier weaponloads, but less instant pinpoint dmg
If you want to use the full weaponloadout of the Clans you need good heat mgmt,... Or you simply shut down all the time.
Clans have almost no LRM protection (just 1ECM capable mech)
Good IS pilots will kick Clanners around
Good Clan pilots will kick IS around
No matter in which mech chassis they drop.

[Shredhead]

Tuann, on 15 June 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

It's remarkably balanced.

IS lights do the dance of death around you, clan mechs(lights) are far less mobile.
IS metabuilds rip you open in an instant
Clan heavies are more mobile than their IS heavy counter parts
Clan mechs generally pack heavier weaponloads, but less instant pinpoint dmg
If you want to use the full weaponloadout of the Clans you need good heat mgmt,... Or you simply shut down all the time.
Clans have almost no LRM protection (just 1ECM capable mech)
Good IS pilots will kick Clanners around
Good Clan pilots will kick IS around
No matter in which mech chassis they drop.

Sure buddy. So, as an IS pilot I'll have to drive full meta or lights. Got ya. Man, that balance is awesome!

[Heffay]

Shredhead, on 16 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Sure buddy. So, as an IS pilot I'll have to drive full meta or lights. Got ya. Man, that balance is awesome!

Or SRMs. Or Lasers. Both are getting significant buffs tomorrow. And the effects were very noticeable over the weekend.

Get inside the PPC range with SRMs and it's game over.

[Shredhead]

Heffay, on 16 June 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Or SRMs. Or Lasers. Both are getting significant buffs tomorrow. And the effects were very noticeable over the weekend.

Get inside the PPC range with SRMs and it's game over.

That's not even remotely viable, as the clam mechs will have twice my firepower with better range. CUAC5/10, CSRM6 with Artemis + CERSL and/or CMPL will rip apart any fool that tries to take them head on in close combat. And the clan mechs will be able to use a complete side to shield while regaining superior speed and still dish out at least as much damage as you once they lost a torso.

[Cimarb]

Shredhead, you are losing the argument on pretty much every side. Feel free to accept the loss at any point.

The balance between Clan and IS is very, very good right from the start, and it will only get better from here. PGI did a very good job with them.

[Gorgo7]

Shredhead,

As Cimarb says he and his friends enjoy "winning" these arguments on the forums and are not interested in addressing your concerns. Instead they want you to join them or go away.
So be prepared to a) exhaust yourself with well reasoned arguments (that will not prevail) or troll them

Your call.

[Shredhead]

Cimarb, on 16 June 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Shredhead, you are losing the argument on pretty much every side. Feel free to accept the loss at any point.

The balance between Clan and IS is very, very good right from the start, and it will only get better from here. PGI did a very good job with them.

I'm getting bombarded with anecdotes and helpless cries of "but SRMs!". In fact I have evidence and numbers on my side, so I don't see me "losing the argument".
Once you guys have looked through the haze of shiny new toys and a PTS experience with people that haven't had the time to adapt to their new toys you will see what I mean.

@Gorgo7:
Yeah, it's blatant how nobody can counter evidence and numbers with evidence and numbers, only anecdotes and false claims. But hey, the one eyed didn't become king amongst the blind either...

[IraqiWalker]

Shredhead, on 16 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Sure buddy. So, as an IS pilot I'll have to drive full meta or lights. Got ya. Man, that balance is awesome!

Or any other mech. My Orion is as far from meta as possible. It doesn't have a single elite skill on it yet, and I've been wrecking test-tube babies with it. Seriously, stop whining and complaining.

I engage clan mechs within <300 meters since I have 2 SRM4s in there.

Here's my build, look at that, and then understand that with that set up, plus only the 8 basics, I've killed plenty of clan mechs.
ON1-K

Even the weapons you're critiquing aren't actually bad. You're just delusionaly convinced they are bad. We've been using them, on the PTS (which has the build for June 17th), and off the PTS. You've been just talking theory and on-paper, and we've actually been testing this, and have factual empirical evidence that is telling you, that you are wrong. Last time I checked, you can theory craft all you want, however, proper experimentation is the ultimate proof. You clearly haven't experimented or tested.

The numbers and data are actually on our side. You're just blind to it, and won't accept anything but your own interpretation.

Gorgo7, on 16 June 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Shredhead,

As Cimarb says he and his friends enjoy "winning" these arguments on the forums and are not interested in addressing your concerns. Instead they want you to join them or go away.
So be prepared to a) exhaust yourself with well reasoned arguments (that will not prevail) or troll them

Your call.

Gorgo7, I have never done this before on an online forum, but for the love of god, stop. Your posts have been the most useless, and least conducive ones on this thread, and most of the others where I have seen you post. Your philosophy of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" has shone more than once, and it's always in the same pattern. You start an argument. You lose, and immediately start declaring that everyone else is either a troll, a liar, or "factually" (according to you, and heavy emphasis on "factually" since it's your anecdotal evidence) wrong.


If you want, I will go with you, point by point over every single detail you want to propose. I will consider them, and give them a proper response, be it a disagreement or approval.

Now, how about both of you show us all the "evidence and numbers on my side" you have? You're the one making the challenge, step up.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 16 June 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I would say that the clans will have the upper hand in manouverbility and survivability, while the IS with FLD builds can focus down targets better.
But any "non-meta" (not highly specialized for FLD) build of the IS will have a hard time against Clan mechs.
A lot of it depends on team setup. If the clans don't bring any streaks, some IS light/med teams (e.g. with Jenners and Shadowhaws) can hunt down slow or weak targets.

Overall I think the balance is quite ok, but with the IS "required" to bring FLD or brawlers, there is not much room for other builds.
Clans will also need to play with specialized builds, or might get outplayed by IS specs.

If the IS PPC/AC will get balanced with splash(arcing) and burst, the FLD-meta builds will be closer to the rest of the IS builds, but that could lead IS to be in a slightly weaker spot overall versus Clan mechs.

I'm not yet sure how much weaker, but it's sure the devs will keep a very close look at what happens ingame in the next weeks.
And I'm sure the situation will be dealt with accordingly.

[Cimarb]

Reno Blade, on 16 June 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

I would say that the clans will have the upper hand in manouverbility and survivability, while the IS with FLD builds can focus down targets better.
But any &quot;non-meta&quot; (not highly specialized for FLD) build of the IS will have a hard time against Clan mechs.
A lot of it depends on team setup. If the clans don't bring any streaks, some IS light/med teams (e.g. with Jenners and Shadowhaws) can hunt down slow or weak targets.

Overall I think the balance is quite ok, but with the IS &quot;required&quot; to bring FLD or brawlers, there is not much room for other builds.
Clans will also need to play with specialized builds, or might get outplayed by IS specs.

If the IS PPC/AC will get balanced with splash(arcing) and burst, the FLD-meta builds will be closer to the rest of the IS builds, but that could lead IS to be in a slightly weaker spot overall versus Clan mechs.

I'm not yet sure how much weaker, but it's sure the devs will keep a very close look at what happens ingame in the next weeks.
And I'm sure the situation will be dealt with accordingly.

I generally agree with what you are saying, but non-meta IS mechs do just fine against non-meta Clan mechs, based upon the cumulative 20 hours I have spent testing them. I'm not making unsubstantiated claims, and feel free to check out my public test videos if you would like to see some of the matches I am basing it upon: http://www.youtube.c...z2MSA40gHy46y_I

PPC/AC combos are still the meta, whether it is Clan or IS, but the Clans lack of jump-capable assaults is a huge issue in these comparisons. A "meta" Cataphract 3d can go toe to toe with a meta Timber Wolf with jump jets, though. Yes, you can equip a LOT of weapons on Clan mechs, but their are a lot of limitations that go along with it as well.

With the fix to SRMs, it will be very important for jump snipers to keep mobile, because once the brawlers are in close range, the fight will quickly change. This is the case in live currently, but the fix will make it even more so.

Nothing is so broken that it will obsolete anything. Yes, a lot of people will be playing their Clan mechs starting tomorrow, but it will be because they just got them, exactly like every other new mech release, not because they are overpowered.

[Zolaz]

Alright, I did a 8 to 10 hours of testing the Clan mechs. The first test, I played only IS since I didnt have any clan mechs. The second test I had picked up the Daishi and Timberwolf a la carte. And I feel that the Clan mechs are pretty balanced.

First things first, you dont want Clan mechs sitting back. The Daishi is the king of sustained dps. It has a huge CT and a horrible side profile that will get it killed super fast plus the thing turns like a Stalker. It is capable of putting out a damage without over heating because of its B hard points. However, you get a wolf pack on you, you are dead. If you ever get 2 or 3 on you in any mech and you are going down, no matter what mech you play. Clan Heavies and Assaults will tear you up, the Summoner and Timberwolf are better for brawling.

Clan mediums and lights are where the pain will be. Fast striking mechs that pack more dps than what you are used to. You know how you dont like seeing a few Shadowhawks or Jenners jumping over a ridge line to attack you? Imagine that Shadowhawk had a Jenner on each arm. Just like you dont want a Wang giving you the AC20 in the back, you dont want 6 CERML followed by another set of 6 hitting your back or a pair of them working your legs.

IS mechs are the kings of the Alpha and pin point damage. More IS chassis means you pick which has the best hard point, hit boxes and JJ combination. Also, the IS mechs mitigate damage better than Clan mechs. Shooting your pinpoint alpha then torso twisting allows you to spread that Clanner damage over your upper torso while they are having to face you down. Clan mechs are also slower than comparable tonnage IS mechs. So, IS mechs cant take better positions faster and exploit blind spots easier on the larger Clan mechs. Clanner damage is mostly damage over time and forces them to expose those huge hit boxes in their larger mechs. If you are in a group that has good communication you can exploit the weaknesses of the Clan mechs.

PUGs are going to love and hate the Clan mechs. They will love the sustained damage but hate having to fight in the mechs. People will see large damage numbers, buy the mechs and then get smoked. Clanners get caught out in the open more, get wolf packed and targeted more and suffer from the squirrel syndrome.

If you are on the fence about buying Clan mechs, then dont throw down your money. Buy some premium time and start collecting your c bills and buy them as they roll out. If I was going to buy some mechs, Id go a la carte and pick up one or two mechs that cost the most. Especially since the Direwolf has a projected cost of around 90 million c bills to get 3 of them. Who knows how much you will end up spending since you have to buy spare omnipods and the super expensive Clan weapons and equipment.

[Lagster]

I was expecting "regular" Clan A/Cs to be single slug, just like IS A/Cs. Currently, there is little reason to use a Clan A/C over a Clan U/AC given the U/AC weighs the same, takes less crit space and fires faster.

I know the Clan A/C is a placeholder while you guys figure out ammo switching, but I think it will be great to give clanners a larger, lower firing rate A/C that shoots single slugs, and that it should carry over into the LBX when ammo switching is implemented. Otherwise, no one is going to bother with Clan LBXs.

[Cimarb]

Lagster, on 18 June 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

I was expecting &quot;regular&quot; Clan A/Cs to be single slug, just like IS A/Cs. Currently, there is little reason to use a Clan A/C over a Clan U/AC given the U/AC weighs the same, takes less crit space and fires faster.

I know the Clan A/C is a placeholder while you guys figure out ammo switching, but I think it will be great to give clanners a larger, lower firing rate A/C that shoots single slugs, and that it should carry over into the LBX when ammo switching is implemented. Otherwise, no one is going to bother with Clan LBXs.

I hope they never do this. Clan doesn't need the PPFLD (PinPoint Front-Loaded Damage) issue we have with IS weapons already, and I actually hope they make IS weapons burst-fire as well, like they have said they are intending to do. Less PPFLD = more TTK (Time To Kill) = better and more tactical fights.