458 replies to this topic

[Zerberus]

PhoenixFire55, on 08 June 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

...plus the costs of clan equipment in R&R. But I guess you've shown already that you want your game to have nothing to do with actual BT lore except for that "A BattleTech Game" in the logo. As somebody said ... you had to put it there so people will know, because it is completely obvious from actually playing the game ... NOT.

ROFLMAO

You want clanners to pay for repairs, in a society where warriors are not paid in credits but simply allocated the equipment they need, and then you turn around and argue lore.

Is it even possible to fail harder? How do you pay for something that has no price, without breaking lore by giving it one and having clanners earn money just like the IS? And then, in your ideal "lore based" world, probably pay inflated IS black market priices for things that they are supposed to be getting for free?

Your solution is, in other words, just as ****** up from a lore standpoint, so pulling that out as a strawman for you wanting R+R back is just a waste of keystrokes that make you look......

Edited by Zerberus, 09 June 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Argent Usher]

Hmm.... the masakari could get 4 ERPPC with +23.5%-25% crit bonus and splash dmg.

Does this mean i get a max. of 36 crit chances per alpha vs. a low armored-unarmored target? (4 ERPPC's x 3x dmg roll x 3x crit roll (with 15-15-15 dmg))

[wanderer]

Silly Zerberus.

That would imply PGI would create an entirely different economy system for Clan players.

They can't even create an LB-X that works. What on earth makes you think that would happen in the next four years?

[PhoenixFire55]

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

So only people with the cash (c-bills or MC) should bother, gotcha.

If you actually watched any of the touring car races (Le-Mans series or ALMS etc.), you know that there are various categories, i.e. Fiats race Fiats and get the same amount of funzies as Ferraris and Porsches. Apparently their bother, I'd say their bother far more than the 'top' guys because the 'lower' categories are usually the ones with more overall cars and far closer races. The thing is, they do have those separate categories. What I tryed to tell you is that if you are given a choice, bring your Fiat or your meta Ferrari. If you are playing for fun, then how does it matter what other guy brings? And if you are competitive, then why you bring Fiat when you have the chance to bring Ferrari?

Cash as in c-bills and cash as in MC is also very different. C-bills are free, accessible for everyone. MCs are not. PGI made a way for 'casual' players to get away from horrendous MM and playing with/against total newbs and tryhards in a form of private matches. But they immidiately chosen to make it pretty much 100% real cash only (premium)(and yea, I don't care that smb always has 23 friends online because most people don't). That is the issue you need to talk about if you care so much about 'only people with cash should bother', because its real money only for the most basic option most other games have. Clan tech that will be fully accessable for free doesn't even come near in comparision.

Sadly, nowadays most games seem to be 'only bother if you got cash'.

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

The founders that only played 50 games aren't here to be a part of the discussion then, are they?

I didn't bring the founders into discussion, you did. If you think that founders with 50 games aren't part of the discussion, then same goes for non-founders with 50 games.

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

The equipment you can buy with what, 8million c-bills? isn't really a lot. You can buy and kit out one mech, if you know what you're doing and chances are you don't if you're new enough to be getting the bonus. It kills the fun in your opinion. Whether it would affect the population is anybody's guess. Limiting clan mechs to those who are space-rich just provides advantages to those already at the top.

Why 8 mil c-bills all of a sudden? You said all the best equpment, thats 150 mil c-bills at least. The less time it takes you to get stuff in game the less time you play the game, thats a fact for all games. Also, would you be so kind and let me know who exactly is at the top? And at the top of what? Because first it were founders, then Lords, then "space-rich"? guys. There is nobody limiting anything. You can spend 0.0$ on the game and have exactly 1 mech, and it'll be the most elite top-tier uber clan mech you can think of.

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

Pugs suck and are welcome to everything they get, gotcha.

And its their fault they do. Don't blame the Lords or any other premade for doing what they are supposed to do in the team-based game while PUGs don't. Blame the devs who can't figure out how to do the solo-only and group-only queues for 2 years...

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

Yeah, IS mechs are pretty unbalanced. That should be fixed too. And it's going to be bad enough with the same kind of imbalance between the clan chassis (e.g. Dire Wolf) without all the clans stomping over the IS as well.

Both issues (and many others) can be balanced with proper MM.

Onmyoudo, on 09 June 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

Wonder if you'd still get the same now, knowing how slow and poor balance changes have been over those couple years.

Alas I'd think it'll be 10% Clans, 10% IS, 80% "wtf are these clans and is?".

[Butane9000]

It'd be nice to have a list of clan weaponry available at clan launch.

[PhoenixFire55]

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

ROFLMAO

You want clanners to pay for repairs, in a society where warriors are not paid in credits but simply allocated the equipment they need, and then you turn around and argue lore.

Is it even possible to fail harder? How do you pay for something that has no price, without breaking lore by giving it one and having clanners earn money just like the IS? And then, in your ideal "lore based" world, probably pay inflated IS black market priices for things that they are supposed to be getting for free?

Your solution is, in other words, just as ****** up from a lore standpoint, so pulling that out as a strawman for you wanting R+R back is just a waste of keystrokes that make you look......

Everything my dear boy/girl has its price. The fact that you were freely given a mech that would have cost 25m c-bills for somebody that isn't part of your society, doesn't negate this. The price was paid in other forms, such as the labour of workers who mined the metals, or scientists who designed the mech, or engineers who build it. Your society has paid the price for you. Without this society you are nothing. Do you have such a society in MWO where somebody gives you mechs and equipment for free? I might look ... to you, but you in turn are simply nothing.

[Zerberus]

wanderer, on 09 June 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Silly Zerberus.

That would imply PGI would create an entirely different economy system for Clan players.

They can't even create an LB-X that works. What on earth makes you think that would happen in the next four years?

If you reread my post, you will hopefully understand that it was not MY idea, but the logical conclusion of someone else`s half-baked idea, packed into a post attemting to display his failure at hiding his personal agenda and /or lack of understanding of what exactly he is arguing for

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Everything my dear boy/girl has its price. The fact that you were freely given a mech that would have cost 25m c-bills for somebody that isn't part of your society, doesn't negate this. The price was paid in other forms, such as the labour of workers who mined the metals, or scientists who designed the mech, or engineers who build it. Your society has paid the price for you. Without this society you are nothing. Do you have such a society in MWO where somebody gives you mechs and equipment for free? I might look ... to you, but you in turn are simply nothing.

THis changes nothing about you arguing in favoir of lore but completely disregarding the lore in teh same argument because it does not serve your purpose.

Clanners do not pay R+R costs in lore, period.

And no amount of beatuing around the bush or pulling strawmen out of your hat will chane this disconnect between what you say you want and what you are actually arguing for. That is your problem to solve, not mine.

And for the record, most house unit pilots don`t pay for R+R , either. Only mercs (and not even all of those, see also Gray Death Legion and Wolf`S Dragoons) and lone wolves.... So, if we go by lore as you supposedly are arguing for, only lws and some mercs (depending on unit) will pay R+R.

On the other hand, house pilots would also not earn nearly the amount of c-bills, and most certainly not mission specific rewards.... That would also be reserved for LWs and mercs.....

The point is, you can either aregue FOR lore, or FOR R+R, but you cannot argue Lore-adhherence and global R+R at the same time and still expect someone who understands the lore to take you seriously.

Edited by Zerberus, 09 June 2014 - 04:15 AM.

[Zerberus]

*please delete*

Edited by Zerberus, 09 June 2014 - 04:16 AM.

[Vincent Lynch]

I love the Gauss idea.
Regarding the LRM:
when the Clans came in TT, almost 20 years ago, Clan LRM were supposed to have 90m minimum range. (someone f****d this up when the source books went to print, and since they didn't know how to spread errata info back then, when most people did not have internet access yet, FASA decided to run with it instead).
if you couldn't do the "damage curve" in time, why not simply implement a hard minimum range of 90, or 100, m for Clan LRM?

[Deadeye254]

Look guys its as simple as this We(the clan players) are not asking that our mechs be overpowered we are just asking to be treated fairly like IS players we should have meta too if not then remove meta from IS as well it should be fair for both sides you people quickly turn it into we are crying because we are not over powered but with no pinpoint we are not powered at all. Now I realize some of you guys are not competitive so who cares about pinpoint simply do the same thing to IS mechs and we re good but don't screw us over and let IS players have the edge.

[PhoenixFire55]

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

Clanners do not pay R+R costs in lore, period.

Nor do they choose the mechs they pilot. So dear clanner ... go pilot your Adder and only Adder for 5 years, R&R on the house. Clan missile fairy will R&R you overnight.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

So let me get this straight.
Inner Sphere ER PPCs have 1 ton more weight, 1 slot more, less range, deal 10 damage and it's kinda okay for them to be 15 heat.

No, it isn't really. This is why the standard PPC is widely used and the ER PPC is not.

The Clan ER PPC having added splash damage, isn't going to rescue it. The only reason people will use it is because they have no other option.

I thought that was apparent in my post. Please re-read.

Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Btw, with the recent AC nerf, the Inner Sphere ER PPC outclasses everything but the AC/2 and the Gauss Rifle in range. And honestly near max range you still get more damage out of the ER PPC than the AC/2.

No one (practically speaking) fights at those ranges, nor can you maintain fighting at that range unless you are very fast (I covered this in my post you quoted, please re-read.)

No one really fought at those ranges with ACs. The Nerf was a red herring.

It will stem some tears, and not change actual gameplay much.

Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

People aren't supposed to be able to fire two ER PPCs at once anyway with the way MWO ...

If you can't fire two at once, you are relegated to one.

Which means IS will be firing 2x the pinpoint vs. Clan mechs for only 33% more heat.

The range is irrelevant, and being able to fire under 90m with a weapon that will overheat you is just a booby prize for the ludicrous amount of heat it generates.

The Clan does not have a fall back option, their weapon ecosystem does not have a standard PPC.

That's the issue I'm discussing, and I already covered it in my post - please re-read.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 June 2014 - 04:58 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Deadeye254, on 09 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Look guys its as simple as this We(the clan players) are not asking that our mechs be overpowered we are just asking to be treated fairly like IS players we should have meta too if not then remove meta from IS as well it should be fair for both sides you people quickly turn it into we are crying because we are not over powered but with no pinpoint we are not powered at all. Now I realize some of you guys are not competitive so who cares about pinpoint simply do the same thing to IS mechs and we re good but don't screw us over and let IS players have the edge.

I'm asking for the "removal" of IS meta for long time now
PPC Splash and AC Burst, DONE!

Now I'd change the heat and splash values for the 3 PPCs like this:
CERPPC 13 heat, 10 dmg +2.5 splash + 2.5 splash
IS-ERPPC 13 heat, 8 dmg +1 splash + 1 splash
IS-PPC 9 heat, 6 dmg +2 splash + 2 splash

The ERPPC for the IS would then be better focused (thats why it has longer range and no minimum range) and the splash part would be less.
With the FLD "fixed" the PPCs can do slightly less heat and the ERPPC for both sides could be used without the need to have 30+ DHS.

[Raigner]

Butane9000, on 09 June 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

It'd be nice to have a list of clan weaponry available at clan launch.

Full name: Abbreviation:
Clan Flamer CFLAME
Clan Machine Gun CMG
Clan Extended range Particle Projection Cannon CERPPC
Clan Gauss Rifle CGAUSS
Clan Long Range Missile Class 5 CLRM5
Clan Long Range Missile Class 10 CLRM10
Clan Long Range Missile Class 15 CLRM15
Clan Long Range Missile Class 20 CLRM20
Clan Short Range Missile Class 2 CSRM2
Clan Short Range Missile Class 4 CSRM4
Clan Short Range Missile Class 6 CSRM6
Clan Streak Short Range Missile Class 2 CSSRM2
Clan Streak Short Range Missile Class 4 CSSRM4
Clan Streak Short Range Missile Class 6 CSSRM6
Clan Small Pulse Laser CSPL
Clan Extended Range Small Laser CERSL
Clan Medium Pulse Laser CMPL
Clan Extended Range Medium Laser CERML
Clan Large Pulse Laser CLPL
Clan Extended Range Large Laser CERLL
Clan LB 2-X Autocannon CLB2XAC
Clan LB 5-X Autocannon CLB5XAC
Clan LB 10-X Autocannon CLB10XAC
Clan LB 20-X Autocannon CLB20CAC
Clan Autocannon Class 2 (not canon) CAC2
Clan Autocannon Class 5 (not canon) CAC5
Clan Autocannon Class 10 (not canon) CAC10
Clan Autocannon Class 20 (not canon) CAC20
Clan Ultra Autocannon Class 2 CUAC2
Clan Ultra Autocannon Class 5 CUAC5
Clan Ultra Autocannon Class 10 CUAC10
Clan Ultra Autocannon Class 20 CUAC 20
Clan NARC CNARC
Clan AMS CAMS
Clan Beagle Series Active Probe or BAP CBAP
Clan Target Acquisition Gear or TAG (assumed but unconfirmed) CTAG
Clan Targeting Computer MK 1-7 (not canon in function) CTC1-CTC7
Clan Jump Jets CJJ
Clan Standard Heat Sink CSHS
Clan Double Heat Sinks CDHS
Clan Endo-Steel structure CES
Clan Ferro-Fibrous Armor CFF
Clan Extra Light Engines Rating 100-400 (not cannon in function) CXLE100-CXLE400
Clan Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment or CASE CCASE

Deployed at a later date:

Myomer Accelerator Signal Circuitry or MASC MASC
Clan Electronic Counter Measure System or ECM CECM

Edited by raigner, 09 June 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Zerberus]

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Nor do they choose the mechs they pilot. So dear clanner ... go pilot your Adder and only Adder for 5 years, R&R on the house. Clan missile fairy will R&R you overnight.

And likewise, mst IS house pilots also have theior mech assigned to them, much less own a large stable.... Only the most famous of the elite and teh richest of the mercs had a few to choose from.

Are you slowly starting to understand why your idea doesn`t work very well? Or are you also willing to have a mech assigned to you and forego all the ones you`re purchased, possibly never to play them again? And pay out the nose for repairs while I get to spread damage everywhere and suicide for free every match if I want?

Becasue after all, you`re "just" a lowly merc that probably has to pay for repairs to the hunchbach given to him, and probably can`t really afford those 4 founders mechs PLUS another at least 4.

BTW the reports of the Adder being DOA are highly exaggerated, I would have absolutely zero problem with that solution. The question is, would you be so happy to be forced to face me in a jenner?

In an equally canon configuration, of course, as lore seems to really be the clincher with you (but I`ll allow DHS).... I fear your high heat generation will do nothing but make you flamerfodder.


But completely different note:

Rainer, how are the clanXL engines "not canon in function"? I fear you lost me there..... Hs rules are the same as in canon, net weights are the same as in canon when gyro and such are added .... or specifically because they can`t be "critted out", the same was IS engines cant be critted.? I'm confused...

Edited by Zerberus, 09 June 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[Raigner]

Vincent Lynch, on 09 June 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I love the Gauss idea.
Regarding the LRM:
when the Clans came in TT, almost 20 years ago, Clan LRM were supposed to have 90m minimum range. (someone f****d this up when the source books went to print, and since they didn't know how to spread errata info back then, when most people did not have internet access yet, FASA decided to run with it instead).
if you couldn't do the "damage curve" in time, why not simply implement a hard minimum range of 90, or 100, m for Clan LRM?

If that is the case then they ****** it up in Clan Total War First Edition, and never bothered to correct it in any later editions or supplemental books or tournament rules or lore or Mechwarrior simulator game sires. nor did WizKids implement this change, nor did TOPPS nor did Mek Tek Nor did Smith and Tinkerer nor did Catalyst Games Labs. That my friend is one hell of a oversight on FASA's part. Were I come form we call that RETCON.

Edited by raigner, 09 June 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

That my friend is one hell of a oversight on FASA's part. Were I come form we call that RETCON.

And believe me, they happily fixed stuff in TRO 2750 (the previous one), or we'd all still be getting 10 shots per ton of Gauss ammo. Any "it wasn't in there to start with" was covering their butts after people called it "OP".

(And they DID retcon other things, like targeting comps/pulse lasers working together for +1 aimed shots.)

[The King in the North]

Thank you PGI! You continue to kill the project named "Mechwarrior Online"!
If I knew how it would be up to this point, I would not pay you a dollar.
Again - thanks....for nothing.
I can throw my 240's$ clan pack in the trash.

[PhoenixFire55]

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

Are you slowly starting to understand why your idea doesn`t work very well? Or are you also willing to have a mech assigned to you and forego all the ones you`re purchased, possibly never to play them again? And pay out the nose for repairs while I get to spread damage everywhere and suicide for free every match if I want?

It is either no R&R as you want with an assigned mech, or any mech with R&R.

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

BTW the reports of the Adder being DOA are highly exaggerated, I would have absolutely zero problem with that solution. The question is, would you be so happy to be forced to face me in a jenner?

In an equally canon configuration, of course, as lore seems to really be the clincher with you (but I`ll allow DHS).... I fear your high heat generation will do nothing but make you flamerfodder.

Any day and any mech you want. Lobby please. We can also ask PGI to prohibit your account to Adder only for 5 years. Shall we?

[Imperius]

BlackyCat, on 09 June 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

Thank you PGI! You continue to kill the project named "Mechwarrior Online"!
If I knew how it would be up to this point, I would not pay you a dollar.
Again - thanks....for nothing.
I can throw my 240's$ clan pack in the trash.

Awwww are you going to cry? I mean really they said from the beginning clans were not going to be OP like before.