684 replies to this topic

[Stormwolfe13]

The overabundance of LRM usage is a clear sign that they are OP. Its my belief that the only people who don't think so are the abundance of players using them for the easy damage hikes and to boost their stats. The fact that there are so many LRM running mechs on the battlefield confirms this. LRM users can list all the stats they want ... I do not care about stats... the proliferation of LRMs in this game has made it A LOT less fun to play. Fun = the only stat that matters. I know the White Knights and the LRM users will slam my post. I don't care. I stand by what I say and many players agree with me. I can't tell you how many players I know who have given up playing this game simply because the LRM rain has made it so un-fun to play. But I know it is quite a lot. It is also not good for new player retention. What new player is going to stick around after repeatedly getting pounded into the dirt by LRMs in the first 3 minutes while he/she is learning to play. Most of them will say "Screw this" and go find something fun to play. PGI please wake up and lose this love affair with LRMs.... it flat out makes your game not fun anymore.

[Varik Ronain]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

The funny thing is they introduced the fix to min-range for Clan LRMs...and they are totally not worth firing at that point. All the end of the world naysayers crack me up though.

It is true that the damage they do in close range is like hitting an enemy with a squirt gun but they still do impulse, fire and smoke effect. When enemies hit the 200-50 meter range I stream my 3 LRM 15 racks while unloading with my 4 er small lasers, 3 machine guns, laze them up with my tag and land a narc pod and hope that I can take them out myself or that a teammate will see the tag+narc and bring some rain to help me.

[Kjudoon]

Stormwolfe13, on 21 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

The overabundance of LRM usage is a clear sign that they are OP. Its my belief that the only people who don't think so are the abundance of players using them for the easy damage hikes and to boost their stats. The fact that there are so many LRM running mechs on the battlefield confirms this. LRM users can list all the stats they want ... I do not care about stats... the proliferation of LRMs in this game has made it A LOT less fun to play. Fun = the only stat that matters. I know the White Knights and the LRM users will slam my post. I don't care. I stand by what I say and many players agree with me. I can't tell you how many players I know who have given up playing this game simply because the LRM rain has made it so un-fun to play. But I know it is quite a lot. It is also not good for new player retention. What new player is going to stick around after repeatedly getting pounded into the dirt by LRMs in the first 3 minutes while he/she is learning to play. Most of them will say "Screw this" and go find something fun to play. PGI please wake up and lose this love affair with LRMs.... it flat out makes your game not fun anymore.

Define "Overabundance" please.

If having a few energy weapons on well over 90% of all mechs is not overabundance, then having a few missile weapons on over 90% ofd all mechs isn't overabundance.

The quality of the game has decreased massively, I agree, but not because of weapon systems. Although I get 1-2 kills, my winning percentage is probably less than 10% and I'm usually one of the last to die in futile efforts. Honest, I don't know why I bother playing.

And no, I don't have a good idea why the quality of the game dramatically decreased as of the same patch that created the group queue versus solo queue anymore. Both stink equally, and it's not my skill that's decreased, so I just don't know what.

[Rabbi OsesMoses]

I'm not super sure that lrms are the problem. I honestly think that AMS needs to be overhauled. I believe that AMS needs to be doubled in strength to be an actual missile defense system. If AMS was improved and made a decent counter to lrms, then not only would be useful and brought out more often. It would also create a sort of role for the mechs with 2 or 3 AMS. Also I feel that AMS overload is also crap as well. A 10% boost is USELESS. It should be at LEAST 50% if not 100%. I think that if these changes were tested, not only would AMS be useful, but mechs like the direwolf would be able to survive the lrmpocalypse as well. You may even be able to boost lrm damage numbers, because mechs can now actually stop lrms from hitting. Those are just some ideas. Thoughts?

[Mavairo]

ShinVector, on 20 July 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

And yet I would say 95% probably more of the matches are casual rather than competitive.

The DF suffers from slow speed... If the LRMers can kite and its a big map... The DFs are screwed. Also again NARC has made this a whole lot easier.

The main point I want to drive into the dudes skull is... LRM works a whole lot more better and easier with TEAM WORK and spotters. He kept denying it because he only thinking from the SOLO player perspective.

*If you keep buffing LRM... On the hands of LRM teams and people who know how to use them... Time and time again.. They get abuse and whole battlefield becomes a stand still.



I already proven my point about LRMs.
Do not that this rag tag LRM team I went down with went to have 5 straight wins.

You capture your own videos to prove your counter point.. Gather a bunch of guys and show how easy it for your PPC+Gauss to win...

*I will leave you with somethings to think about..
LOS. (Direct fire)
Markmanship.
Server base hit guidance no need to aim. (No need to worry about LAG much.)

For whatever reason you can't do it... I will have no reason to discuss this further.

https://www.youtube....Q&v=z2OJsMw_9Jw Drunk Play, with LL AC10 ML Giggle Fits. EZ Win in a Fang. Clearly Fangs are OP
It's not uncommon for my fang in a 4 man to go on a 10 win streak with multiple bags to it's name 700+ damage matches with 3 to 4 kills to it's name. Clearly the Fang is OP
Proof in the pudding... same night back to back



Even the mighty Direwhale is no match for the OP FANG!

Edited by Mavairo, 21 July 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[SolasTau]

Anyone who thinks LRM's are zero skill weapons that need to be nerfed has evidently never lost salvos of missiles into buildings, oddly placed rocks, normally placed rocks, the ground, or had a lock suddenly go blank RIGHT as they fired. Nevermind firing salvos like a noob at a target that can easily break LoS and lock with you, or firing the odd panic shot just to realize you dumb fired your LRM's before getting a lock. Yep. No skill involved.

Why don't I flip it around on you. PPC's and Autocannons are zero skill weapons because all you have to do is point and click. Lasers are zero skill weapons because you can miss with them and still do damage to your target. Gauss Rifles are zero skill weapons because you really only have to hit once or twice with them to begin crippling a mech. Small Lasers and AC2's were OP, so they each received nerfs. Anything is OP in the hands of the right user.

I keep saying it. The one thing I have seen conclusively in this game is how important firing discipline is. If you don't have good firing discipline, you will get destroyed. If you don't push with your allies, not only do you leave them out there to die alone, you are ALSO splitting the firepower of your team. Similarly, if you rush in when your team is holding back, all you've done is split your teams total firepower so you can die a hero.

I AM a noob at this game. I've only played a few weeks now with a very hectic work schedule. Don't conflate the things that are legitimately hard to learn about this game with your crying about LRMs. You're engaged in affirming the consequent (a formal logic fallacy) because you're sick of being pelted from the sky. If X is true does not automatically make Y ALSO true.

Noob tip from a noob: If the missile siren thingie is screaming at you, it is a bad time to poke your head to shoot the bad guys. You should wait for the missile siren thingie to shut up and possibly fall back to a position behind cover. Also, it would be idea to look around for spotter mechs if you think you should have broken line of sight and the enemy is still locking you up.

[Wolfways]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 21 July 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Sigh... Blatant refusal to acknowledge the issue because of one's own bias. So sorry you are stuck in the tryhard tier full of people that treat the game like a job and winning no matter what the cost is the only way. Many weapons aren't as effective in that group of min/maxers. Most people however, just enjoy having fun, and being locked behind "cover" for 10 mins before getting swarmed because your teammates got impatient and died on maps like caustic when the random MM gods decide your team gets no ECM on caustic vs 90+ lrm volleys is the definition of not fun. Same with pop tarters but those require more team support and coordination rather than random luck with team composition and available equipment to be effective or something, I'm kinda surprised at how few there are in the solo queue.

"Most people"? I think most people are mid-ELO and they aren't the ones hiding in cover for 10 minutes. You missed out the big group of players between the "tryhards" and the "underhive".

Quote

Stop forcing the weapon system to be so incredibly dependent on team composition so they can be consistently effective yet never too good even in the most/least optimal setting. Nerf supporting and countering equipment especially radar dep and ECM. But indrect fire has to be nerfed for the weapon system to be able to be buffed. Hell you could give missiles 300m/s speed, half lock-on time, better tracking, maybe increase damage, and make them fire and forget when used as direct fire as long as you make indirect fire significantly increased lock-on times, double spread, etc. and require TAG/NARC in to to get locks. Then they better give NARC a HUD warning, it's pretty stupid this hasn't been done already. The impulse needs to get under control though, lrm 5s should not do so much shake by themselves.

While i don't agree that LRM's are in any way OP i'd be happy with changes to indirect-fire that meant buffing direct-fire.

[Wolfways]

Rabbi OsesMoses, on 21 July 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'm not super sure that lrms are the problem. I honestly think that AMS needs to be overhauled. I believe that AMS needs to be doubled in strength to be an actual missile defense system. If AMS was improved and made a decent counter to lrms, then not only would be useful and brought out more often. It would also create a sort of role for the mechs with 2 or 3 AMS. Also I feel that AMS overload is also crap as well. A 10% boost is USELESS. It should be at LEAST 50% if not 100%. I think that if these changes were tested, not only would AMS be useful, but mechs like the direwolf would be able to survive the lrmpocalypse as well. You may even be able to boost lrm damage numbers, because mechs can now actually stop lrms from hitting. Those are just some ideas. Thoughts?

AMS are not supposed to counter missiles, only reduce the amount of damage taken....and they do that well.
They only become less effective when faced by missile boats. Boats are the problem.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

AMS are not supposed to counter missiles, only reduce the amount of damage taken....and they do that well.
They only become less effective when faced by missile boats. Boats are the problem.

And we don't even have the really good boats yet!

[Lyoto Machida]

Stormwolfe13, on 21 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

The overabundance of LRM usage is a clear sign that they are OP. Its my belief that the only people who don't think so are the abundance of players using them for the easy damage hikes and to boost their stats. The fact that there are so many LRM running mechs on the battlefield confirms this. LRM users can list all the stats they want ... I do not care about stats... the proliferation of LRMs in this game has made it A LOT less fun to play. Fun = the only stat that matters. I know the White Knights and the LRM users will slam my post. I don't care. I stand by what I say and many players agree with me. I can't tell you how many players I know who have given up playing this game simply because the LRM rain has made it so un-fun to play. But I know it is quite a lot. It is also not good for new player retention. What new player is going to stick around after repeatedly getting pounded into the dirt by LRMs in the first 3 minutes while he/she is learning to play. Most of them will say "Screw this" and go find something fun to play. PGI please wake up and lose this love affair with LRMs.... it flat out makes your game not fun anymore.

I guess new players only die to LRMs then. What's gonna happen to them if they get high enough in ELO to get pounded by direct fire?

Moar tears???

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

And we don't even have the really good boats yet!

I'm not saying boats themselves are a problem. They are just a problem for AMS.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

I'm not saying boats themselves are a problem. They are just a problem for AMS.

on TT, AMS rules were worded (may have been revised) that they fired on the first launcher fired at your Mech. So my Team mate would fire a LRM5 or SRM2 AMS would do its thing.

Dun dun dun! Two of these open up! 6 LRM 20s

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 July 2014 - 06:09 PM.

[Foxwalker]

Varik Ronain, on 09 June 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

I wish more people were on the same page as this.


The real issue is the lack of real time communication on pug teams. In the thick of a fight you dont have time to type to your lance mate that they are narced or relay any information in any meaningful way without making yourself vulnerable to enemy fire while you hurriedly try to type a message.

Recently I was in a game a PUG ECM Spider on my team got NARCed. Luckily he ran in a direction I could bring my Kitfox near and I was able to get him under my ECM cover. If he had gone the other way, that would have been it for him. It is interesting how many players do not play this as a team game.

[Wolfways]

Foxwalker, on 21 July 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

Recently I was in a game a PUG ECM Spider on my team got NARCed. Luckily he ran in a direction I could bring my Kitfox near and I was able to get him under my ECM cover. If he had gone the other way, that would have been it for him. It is interesting how many players do not play this as a team game.

I find it strange that the Spider needed your ECM.
Very few people fire LRM's at a light, and even less lights get hit by LRM's because they have the speed to get into cover fast.

[Lynx7725]

Kjudoon, on 21 July 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

And no, I don't have a good idea why the quality of the game dramatically decreased as of the same patch that created the group queue versus solo queue anymore. Both stink equally, and it's not my skill that's decreased, so I just don't know what.

Out of curiosity, what kind of builds are you running? LRM support, other support, brawling, etc?

SolasTau, on 21 July 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Why don't I flip it around on you. PPC's and Autocannons are zero skill weapons because all you have to do is point and click.

Truth be told? I recently transited from an IS LRM boat to a Clan Brawler, and was working on a Clan DF support mech. I actually found it quite easy to do semi-decently in the DF Timber Wolf C (no JJs) with Gauss and ER PPC. I'm not by any means great in it, since I've never learnt the maps to know how to work a DF build right, but I do decent amounts of damage, I even get kills from time to time.

I actually found the training in situation awareness from LRM support work, and the training to sneak around with a Brawler, highly useful for my work in the DF support mech. Each "role" has its own skill set -- if there isn't, it won't be a "role". People claiming some role is no skill probably has no skill in that role.

Foxwalker said:

Recently I was in a game a PUG ECM Spider on my team got NARCed. Luckily he ran in a direction I could bring my Kitfox near and I was able to get him under my ECM cover. If he had gone the other way, that would have been it for him. It is interesting how many players do not play this as a team game.

Recently I had the odd pleasure of watching vids of a group game I was involved in... from both sides of the engagement, because one guy on the other team was twitch streaming. As it turns out, one of their Warhawk got narc'ed early and I was happily shooting LRMs at it. Even with team comms telling the Warhawk to move one direction, he got disoriented and went the other way, and died from prolonged LRM exposure. Sometimes it's not that players don't play as a team game, it's just disorienting to get repeatedly hammered by LRMs (which I exploit as much as I can. )

[Xetelian]

My weapon hit rates are like 50-60% for an average ballistic or laser
My weapon hit rates with LRMs is 20%

60% of my LRM spam is wasted. I need to get better at LRMs obviously but it isn't like I lack something imperative to make them function.

[Joseph Mallan]

Xetelian, on 21 July 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

My weapon hit rates are like 50-60% for an average ballistic or laser
My weapon hit rates with LRMs is 20%

60% of my LRM spam is wasted. I need to get better at LRMs obviously but it isn't like I lack something imperative to make them function.

You lack a solid Target lock. either due to the enemy hiding or your scout losing lock. So you are lacking something imperative. Radar Lock.

[Sandpit]

just to make sure I don't miss one and this is the one PGI reads

LRMs are not "op" please don't nerf them any more.

[Lynx7725]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 July 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Xetelian, on 21 July 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

My weapon hit rates are like 50-60% for an average ballistic or laser
My weapon hit rates with LRMs is 20%

60% of my LRM spam is wasted. I need to get better at LRMs obviously but it isn't like I lack something imperative to make them function.

You lack a solid Target lock. either due to the enemy hiding or your scout losing lock. So you are lacking something imperative. Radar Lock.

It's also a matter of experience. After a while, you'll know when a lock's going to hold for long enough for the missiles to get there, so you won't shoot at fleeting targets. And you'll know when and how to get close enough for LRMs to become truly effective. Knowing when not to shoot is as important as knowing when to shoot.

[Zyllos]

LRMs just need to be less efficient unless used with Artemis IV.

I would leave LRM + Artemis IV with the current spread now (but fix the LOS issue that Artemis IV has) then make LRMs have a bit larger spread. Then on top of that, make LRMs have a MUCH longer cooldown so they are not so spammy. Some like:

LRM/5 - 7.0s
LRM/10 - 8.5s
LRM/15 - 10.0s
LRM/20 - 12.0s

To balance this out, I would make LRMs travel the same speed as the current SRMs, 300m/s. Also, if LRMs are fired with a lock, the lock does not need to be maintained for the LRMs to travel to the target (but the target still needs to be spotted in some way, so either you or another needs to have the triangle above it).

This is what I would do with LRMs.

Edited by Zyllos, 21 July 2014 - 06:39 PM.