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Lrms Need To Be Nerfed


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#641 Yokaiko

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

View PostMavairo, on 26 July 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:


So 3 LRM60 mechs...is the equivalent of standing infront of an AC loaded down DW...
to really pull that off you're looking at 3 85 ton mechs. Meaning 255 tons.....

yep...OP alright....



Storm Crow, dual 20/10s is possible, it would go try in about 8 salvoes, but its possible. Timber S torsos can get 70 (these are the fools you see with no back up weapons).

#642 Wolfways

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:19 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 26 July 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Let me put it this way.

"Missiles Incoming" warning does not cause me even the least of concern unless I am running this build. ;)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...010b2c0c41ef1cc

So yeah, LRMs are far from nerf worthy.

I wish i had the option of turning that warning off. By the time the missiles have left the launcher i'm already pretty sure they've missed.

#643 Livebait

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:21 PM

@Wolf

Okay, if your driving a Dragon on forest colony with several msl boats on both sides. What are you going to do?

Hide & move around looking for ECM mechs all the while being peppered by LRM's. Just boring game play to me.

#644 Mavairo

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:23 PM

View PostLivebait, on 26 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

@Wolf

Okay, if your driving a Dragon on forest colony with several msl boats on both sides. What are you going to do?

Hide & move around looking for ECM mechs all the while being peppered by LRM's. Just boring game play to me.


As a Dragon pilot, know what I do?
I rally our mediums, or fast assaults into Lurm hunting with me. We go through the tunnel, pop out ontop of the LRM boats at nearly point blank range and victimize them so hard that they go and cry to their mamas.

GG Close Style.

#645 Livebait

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:36 PM

Yup you can do that. But, I'd say that is predictable as well. Hence my case this game is boring. Maps are the problem. Add to it the abundance of a weapons system that is prolific and you get snooze fest. Don't get me wrong, if you are enjoying the game as is, I'm glad for you. I just can't play this way for any length of time.

Let me just say this, the game was a little more entertaining before the LRM buff. But after the speed increase, the game play has become even more a whack-a-mole contest. I run out of AMS ammo ALL the time now so I know there are many LRM's flying around these days.

Edited by Livebait, 26 July 2014 - 01:47 PM.


#646 Wolfways

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:36 PM

View PostLivebait, on 26 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

@Wolf

Okay, if your driving a Dragon on forest colony with several msl boats on both sides. What are you going to do?

Hide & move around looking for ECM mechs all the while being peppered by LRM's. Just boring game play to me.

What Mavairo said.

Forest Colony is a two-edged sword for LRM's. It is designed for 8x8 so is small enough that there isn't that much cover for 24 mechs (people have been saying it should be expanded for ages).
On the other hand it's easy to get close to the enemy missile boats.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hide and move" though. Isn't that normal tactics? (as long as you aren't spending most of the time hiding) If you are playing like that then i don't understand how LRM's are hitting you, unless you are spending too much time in the open.

#647 Mavairo

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 01:47 PM

View PostLivebait, on 26 July 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yup you can do that. But, I'd say that is predictable as well. Hence my case this game is boring. Maps are the problem. Add to it the abundance of a weapons system that is prolific and you get snooze fest. Don't get me wrong, if you are enjoying the game as is, I'm glade for you. I just can't play this way for any length of time.


The entire game on several maps consists often of "go right, go right go right and shoot the first dumb ass that crests the hill or round the corner...".

Once you've wiped enough lrm teams off the field, you'll find your ELO climb. Then suddenly you'll hit the ELO where you start seeing a tremendous amount of direct fire weaponry, SRMs, Lasers, ACs PPCs, GR PPCs, or a mix of the above. And then you'll notice....LRM in serious numbers are now a rarity.

#648 MischiefSC

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 02:03 PM

Twolf ideal LURM loadout is 2x15A, 2x10A, 2CERMLs, TAG, 1440 shots.

50 tubes, plenty of ammo, TAG and the equiv of 3 IS MLs as a backup. Split-fire to avoid ghost heat.

Here's where you get BOSS though.

Tag in the torso.

2xCERML, 2xCERLL, 2x CLRM15As. Balance ammo/DHS to taste.

LURM at 300-500, with lasers and plenty of DHS. LRM brawler, she works VERY well for people who like to get close.

Finally...

2xLB5x
4xCLRM5 (no artemis)
4xCERML
Ammo/DHS to taste.

Chain fire that into someones face while raining the LBX and staggered laser fire. It's a motion sickness MACHINE. It's a pure on troll build - People will hate you and with good reason. I wouldn't say it's more effective than a pure DoT/direct fire TW build but blinding someone at point-blank while you laser/LB5x the crap out of them...

It's like the idea of kicking the crutch out from under Tiny Tim. Some things just never stop being funny.

#649 Fenris Ro

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 02:41 PM

Maybe I am beating a dead horse here... Buuttttt uhhhh.... *COUGH- ECM-AMS -RADAR DEPRIVATION-USE TERRAIN-ENHANCED GYRO- COUGH*

Ahh... Excuse me... Had a bit of a bull **** cold I've been trying to get over for a while now...

#650 Mavairo

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 03:19 PM

Also something else you'll notice once you climb out of the basement...
you won't see those idiots anymore that just stand around in the middle of open terrain derping it up, while they present themselves a lovely target to the enemy, even after they take a few salvos.

#651 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 06:36 PM

View PostMavairo, on 26 July 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

Also something else you'll notice once you climb out of the basement...
you won't see those idiots anymore that just stand around in the middle of open terrain derping it up, while they present themselves a lovely target to the enemy, even after they take a few salvos.


Ah yes those 10+ minute matches where everyone sits behind a rock and there's 30 seconds of action at the end. We can thank all the lurm spam for that actually, that is once you climb out of the "basement" and realize it.

#652 Mavairo

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 07:24 PM

View Postlockwoodx, on 26 July 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:


Ah yes those 10+ minute matches where everyone sits behind a rock and there's 30 seconds of action at the end. We can thank all the lurm spam for that actually, that is once you climb out of the "basement" and realize it.


Actually, it's due to direct fire which is hands down superior to LRMs. I don't know about you but I do not have any issues putting direct fire onto specific parts of armor, even at extreme ranges. Blowing out armor with direct fire is far more efficient than lobbing lrms at targets across the field, where the damage is easily spread around, and countered by several factors.

Simply put, if you're seeing lots of LRM spam, or relying on it to get you to victory, You are Doin It Wrong.
Why do you think Direct Fire Pinpoint damage weapons and mechs are the top ranked mechs?
Must be because LRMs are so Op no one feels like using them!

Edited by Mavairo, 26 July 2014 - 07:29 PM.


#653 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 07:56 PM

View PostLivebait, on 26 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

@Wolf

Okay, if your driving a Dragon on forest colony with several msl boats on both sides. What are you going to do?

Hide & move around looking for ECM mechs all the while being peppered by LRM's. Just boring game play to me.

But a needed part of combat I am afraid. And if you are a dragon you have a modest amount of speed to get from cover to cover before being blasted by heavy LRM rain.

#654 Thunder Child

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:17 PM

Hi. Me again, defending the poor LRM from unfair discrimination.
I don't know how long many of you have been here, but I've been around for a while now, and I can tell you that LRMs are about as balanced as they have ever been, and about as balanced as they possibly can be, until ECM gets fixed.
Back when LRMs were only 0.8 damage, enemy mechs would just wade forward, ignoring the light pitter patter of rain on their armor.
Then convergence got removed, and suddenly they had to cower behind rocks, for fear of being instantly gibbed by the Mighty HexPPC and QuadLL Stalker. They still ignored LRMs.
Then LRM Damage got Buffed. Mechs were dying left and right, as splash damage resulted in the CT sponging up to three times the amount of damage an LRM salvo should be able to deal. This was the Second LRMageddon. (The first being when Artemis was first introduced, and it used to come straight down on top of you, cockpitting the mech). A series of Hotfixes followed, the splash radius was reduced, damage remained the same, and people continued to ignore the rain, because of the Mighty HexPPC.
Ghost Heat was introduced, and the Mighty HexPPC and Quad LL Stalker shuffled off into a corner, as the new contender entered the ring, the Gauss/PPC "Sniper". The rise of the Poptart began. LRM rain was still ignored, because hills blocked it, and you could make a cup of coffee in the time it took to reach you. And so the Brawlers trembled behind their rocks while waiting for the gaze of the Sniper to move away.
And then the missile trajectory changed. Many proclaimed a new LRMageddon, but it was premature, as a series of Hotfixes modified the trajectory, and missiles were still the slowest way to deliver your mail. The Raven Spotter arose for a short time, but due to the blanket effect of ECM, very few could maintain a lock long enough for missile to land. The PPC Snipers rejoiced.
Not long ago (sometime in the past six months, wasn't it?) an attempt at EW was made, and suddenly there was a way to nullify enemy ECM, short of dropping a Raven in the middle of the enemy team with Counter. Cries of "The LRMageddon is HERE! REPENT!" echoed for the briefest of moments, as every man and his dog took LRMs to the battlefield. However, it was short lived, and the PPC/Gauss returned.
Then the Gauss suffered a traumatic injury, one it is only just beginning to recover from now. It got a divorce notice from the PPC. For a short period, LRMs once again appeared on the battlefield, but were quickly shelved when the new affair between PPC and AC5 began. The two have been happy together ever since, despite a few futile attempts by PGI to keep them apart.
In response, the LRMs received what many perceived as an excessive buff, a minor speed upgrade. The vocal outcry was great, and hotfixes brought them back down to a more evadable level.
But for the first time in a very long time, it is not JUST the PPC that is forcing people to cower behind the rocks. Now the LRMs are doing it too. But because the LRMs are so obvious about it, you can see them coming, and they rattle you around, and Betty yells in your ear that there might be danger over yonder ridge, LRMs are viewed as the culprit behind the need to find a very large rock. What most don't realise is that we have been cowering behind rocks since the rise of the PPC. It's just that LRM's have made us realise this.

TL:DR: LRMs are not the only weapon at fault. Long Range Pinpoint fire is, and has been for more than a year, the main culprit for causing players to hide behind rocks. It's just that LRMs require taller rocks.

(Also, my timeline may not be entirely chronologically correct. I remember the details, just not the order. There was also the introduction of HSR in there somewhere. About the same time as convergence removal, if I remember correctly.

Edited by Thunder Child, 26 July 2014 - 09:20 PM.


#655 Kjudoon

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:34 PM

Thunderchild makes me so very happy.



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#656 Tw1stedMonkey

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:45 PM

How is this still alive, you've managed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one is going to sway anyone's opinion long ago. let this die already.

#657 Thunder Child

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

Just posting it as I see it.
I signed up before CB, but didn't buy the Founders in time because I had no idea what a Kickstarter was (I now know). But I have been playing since not long after OB started, and have watched the game progress.
Ever since the implementation of HSR (which was needed. My Dragon used to take up to a Full Second to fire the A/C 10, from the time I pulled the trigger) and the removal of convergence, this game has been heavily focussed around long range engagements. As HSR has improved, the engagement ranges have gotten larger and larger. Brawlers like myself have been hugging rocks for this entire time, occasionally popping off a snap shot before getting pummelled by the Meta Mechs.
It was just the way of things. Many newer pilots would be caught unawares by the sudden loss of half their mech and, wrongly, assume that because Betty was yelling at them, and there was a cloud of missiles flying towards them, that the LRMs were the cause of their woes. Do I think that LRMs need tweaking? Yes. I believe that a wider spread when fired indirectly would be a marked improvement. Especially if it was coupled with Konivings Suggestion of Doubling the Damage, but Doubling the reload time. Turn it into an AoE Saturation weapon when fired indirectly, and a cloud of death if the Boat is brave enough to maintain their own locks.

#658 Henree

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

how about we just nerf clan missiles?

#659 Thunder Child

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:59 PM

View PostTw1stedMonkey, on 26 July 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

How is this still alive, you've managed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one is going to sway anyone's opinion long ago. let this die already.


The reason it will not die, is because both sides see themselves as being correct.
You have those that have no problem dealing with LRMs in their current incarnation, and thus see no reason to change them.
And you have those that are incapable of dealing with them in their current state, and need them nerfed to bring back "balance".
And then you have me, who believes that LRMs could do with some minor tweaks to make them still a viable weapon, but realises that the true culprit is the PP Long Range fire that will decimate any non-Sniper before they can get into range.

Since the introduction of HSR, this game has steadily been heading towards CoD: Mech Edition.

And it's why I believe that if we got a CoF style mechanic (not random placement, but rather a standardized spread) to punish high mobility long range fire, but still allow Pinpoint Stationary shots, a complete rework of ECM to prevent LRMs being turned off by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, Konivings modifications to LRMs to balance them, adding the JUMP back into Jumpjets, and a lowering of the heat threshold, this game would start getting back to being a "Battletech Game" as advertised.

But that's just the rambling of an old TT player.

View PostHenri Schoots, on 26 July 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

how about we just nerf clan missiles?


The only issue with Clan LRMs, is a lack of spread due to Streamfire, and that the LRM Impulse is too high. I believe that was in Konivings Fix, but if it isn't, then yes, LRM Impulse needs to be lowered, or at least, based on number of hits, rather than each missile rocking harder than an AC20

#660 Yokaiko

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 10:26 PM

View PostThunder Child, on 26 July 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

The only issue with Clan LRMs, is a lack of spread due to Streamfire, and that the LRM Impulse is too high. I believe that was in Konivings Fix, but if it isn't, then yes, LRM Impulse needs to be lowered, or at least, based on number of hits, rather than each missile rocking harder than an AC20



Pretty sure the big ballistics had their impulse nerfed somewhere along the line, you used to know it if you got whacked with an AC20 or guass. Now it tickles and you may or may not hear it.





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