684 replies to this topic

[WDBDBloodyTriggerZ]

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

[GutterBoy5]

OMG

LRMS are fine, actually a good LRMS pilot needs a lot of skill
To combat
ECM
Ams
Terrain
Lights
Slowest moving weapon in the game
Useless under 180 mtrs
Heaviest ammo use
In coming missile warning
Should I go on, don't blame LRMS ..

ITS YOU ,LEARN YOU USE ABOVE MENTIONED THINGS

& before you got to the written by a LRMS lover , I use all types of combat & prefer brawling . LRMS arnt even a threat many of my brawlers don't even have ams ,it's a waist of tonnage .it's helpful to make it easier to close in on them & tear them apart (within 180mtrs)

Wish we could nerf ppl that whine about LRMS . Much better solution.oh your gonna cry to high heaven when clan LRMS are happening .

[Koniving]

Skill-less? Yes.
Overpowered? No. They are drastically underpowered with a 0.55 to 1 ratio with source for a single use and a 1.3 to 1 ratio for 10 seconds.
Most weapons 1.5 to 1 ratio in 10 seconds.

They're effectively underpowered. But their spam and stacking so many of them cause problems.

Details

Spoiler

The average mech carries no more than 2 LRM-15s. 4 is considered a boat. This mech carried 6 LRM-15s.


Now, what was wrong? Was it really all that overpowered? 20 LRM-15s were fired to get 1 kill. That's 330 damage right now. Back then, it was 360 at the time. And it was pathetic.

And in this video, those 20 LRM-15s? That would have been 540 damage at 1.8 per missile as it was back then.

Best damage on the team. 385 damage. That's 1.8 damage per missile...but it gives you an idea of how many missiles would miss.

Right now missiles are 1.1 damage. Very low. And in all of these, do you see the huge dependance on LOTS of launchers and LOTS of missiles to have any discernible effect?

The problem ultimately rests on this. Spam.

Skip to 3:40. Hear how frequently the alarm goes off? I timed every alarm for when the AMS goes off right before the missiles hit. It was so frequent that I had to cut back on them because it was driving me nuts.



In this video, it's moments after we rushed and killed several LRM boats I was being hit so bad by LRMs that I couldn't read my hud. I literally gave up when I overheated, minimized the game, pulled out fraps, accepted to run it as admin, pulled the game back up, started recording, started my mech back up tried to fire the arm lasers but hit the wrong button, shut down.. I was going to count how long it took to die but my team went and attacked the LRM boats with me killing two while I was minimized.

At one point in time I sat and waited for LRM fire to kill me. It took 39 seconds for 3 LRM-15s to kill me in a Hunchback. Constant spam. Most of it was CT damage.

But as I was saying... the problem isn't that they are overpowered. They are pathetically underpowered in my opinion.

The issue is how frequently they fire. With enough launchers you can fire frequently enough to render an AMS useless; as in it will stop destroying ANY missiles what-so-ever because it can't keep up. It takes a fraction of a second to change from a destroyed missile to a living one. It always goes for a relatively close one. It needs 1/3rd of a second to destroy one missile. It takes 1/8th of a second to change targets. But every time you get hit, it has to take 1/8th of a second to switch targets. During that you have 1/4th of a second before the next missile it is going to shoot at hits you. So eternally the AMS becomes deadlocked into being ineffective.

Furthermore, with just 4 LRM-15s the number of missiles you lob in 10 seconds surpasses the number of bullets a machine gun fires in that same time frame. These are high explosive missiles being slammed into launchers and lobbed faster than MWO's MG can chamber rounds and fire them!

With this spam there is no time to react, no time to go for cover, no time to approach to kill to counter to fight... there just isn't any time.

So I've established two things. LRMs are underpowered. LRMs fire way too fast.
Lets fix both.
Double damage. Double the reload time. Double heat. Reduce LRM ammo to 120 per ton.
Instead of firing three times in 10 seconds, most launchers will fire twice.
For an LRM-20, this means 9.5 seconds before you can fire again. But for that, with some tactical positioning and careful consideration of when you fire, you could score a hit of 44 damage with just 1 launcher.
LRM-15? 8.5 seconds. 33 damage.
LRM-10? 7.5 seconds. 22 damage.
LRM-5? 6.5 seconds. 11 damage.

Just a thought.

[Agent Cooper]

I agree many lrm users are skilless, insomuch as I see them firing at mechs within 100 meters or directly at the tunnel or straight at buildings or at an enemy mech surrounded by friendly lights so the friendlies end up taking hits.

A good lrm pilot needs to know when to fire his missiles to maximize damage and when to help teammates. LRMs are for FIRE SUPPORT.
I get a great deal of satisfaction, not from kills, but from softening up the enemy so my team can take them out quicker with less chance of damage to them.

[NecessaryWeevil]

So, Koniving, I know that you know what you're talking about, but I'd like to see you address the "skill-less" accusation (as in, do not require skill to use effectively) because that's not my experience. I find that they're much trickier than direct-fire weapons as there are so many considerations.

[Kurayami]

There are countless idiots who not only cant but wont take cover\ams\ecm and they are extremely vocal so upping damage will result in hillarious whine "i was one shotted by noskill braindead LRM user while standing alone on open ground without ams\ecm - NERF FKN NOOB NOSKILL WEAPON!!!1111oneone"

Also just love to see people whining "noskill" - sure player can do some damage without skill - at least some missiles are bound to find some leeroy, but to do any real damage and contribute to the team you need way more skill than for los weapons.

Edited by Kurayami, 08 June 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Jonnara]

I find the opening poster hilarious, that and the fact he posted this is the "Fan Creations" section of the forum.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

They are skill less in that they require little hand/eye coordination, little heat management, they lock on and track the target, they're the easiest weapon to spam, they get lots of ammo, your teammates do the dirty work and acquire your locks...

Using them requires just the most basic of hand/eye coordination.

Using them well requires brains.

Brains are not skill.


A highly skilled idiot with direct fire can shoot his way out of bind. Direct fire is a skill, being able to go "I want to hit that pixel," snapping to it with inhuman reflex, and hitting THAT pixel is a skill.

Skill: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

[ShinVector]

Kurayami, on 08 June 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

There are countless idiots who not only cant but wont take cover\ams\ecm and they are extremely vocal so upping damage will result in hillarious whine "i was one shotted by noskill braindead LRM user while standing alone on open ground without ams\ecm - NERF FKN NOOB NOSKILL WEAPON!!!1111oneone"

Also just love to see people whining "noskill" - sure player can do some damage without skill - at least some missiles are bound to find some leeroy, but to do any real damage and contribute to the team you need way more skill than for los weapons.

Geee.. Like all mechs have ECM... If he talking about lights.. Unfortunately they do tend to get 1 shotted and maimed once in a while... I suspect due to that lucky tight group of ALRM50 salvo + Target decay... (dammn annoying to be track byed LRMs when you are fully behind a hill out of sight)

Myself I have gotten used to it by understand what a light can hide under to evade but if you happen to caught in the open which you need to be sometimes.. ggclose.. light mechs do not have the armour to take such hits..

However.. The upcoming anti target lock module might be invaluable for light mechs. Hopefully they cancel the effects of target decay as expected.

Edited by ShinVector, 08 June 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Why PGI hasn't hired Koniving as the Community Balance Liaison, I will never know. His answers to almost every balance question are usually spot on.

But, to continue with the "yet another LRM Thread". I find Streaks to be the Lowest Skill weapon in the game. All you have to do is lock the target, and the missiles do doughnuts around it until they hit. THEY NEVER MISS! The same can not be said for LRMs. Yes, a new player can jump into an LRM equipped mech, sit at the back, and throw LRMs at every little triangle to show up on screen.
They'll hit the hill. They'll hit the building. They'll hit the dropship. They'll hit the cliff leading to the tunnel. They'll hit friendlies. Hell, some times they EVEN hit the target.
Assuming they can get a lock through the ECM, dodge the Hunter Lights that come after them, evade the LRM counter-batteries, and get through the cloud of AMS that any low-mid ELO player SHOULD be running (not just for yourself, but for your team mates too).
For a FLD mech, you point, click, and damage is done. Congrats, you passed Twitch School from playing (insert FPS here).
Yes, leading a light going 160kph can be tricky. But it is NOT the only form of "skill" in this game. Brawlers, "snipers", and Fire Support mechs all utilise different Skill Sets. So claiming your version of fighting requires "moar skill" than any other way of fighting is not necessarily true. It might be that they both require an equal amount of "skill", but from different avenues.
Yes, I believe LRMs need Adjustment (NOT NERFS) to be balanced, but at the moment, they are the closest they have been to balanced in a LOOOONG time. I would love to see Konivings suggestion implemented so that we could see if that fixes it.
I would also love more simulated movement on the crosshair so that PP damage actually requires real skill, and not just a fancy mouse and caffeinated reflexes.

And for the record, I run Brawler Hunchbacks and SRM Commandos. LRMs are terrible, it's the damned PPC/AC5 which murders me.

ShinVector, on 08 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Geee.. Like all mechs have ECM... If he talking about lights.. Unfortunately they do tend to get 1 shotted and maimed once in a while... I suspect due to that lucky tight group of ALRM50 salvo + Target decay... (dammn annoying to be track byed LRMs when you are fully behind a hill out of sight)

Myself I have gotten used to it by understand what a light can hide under to evade but if you happen to caught in the open which you need to be sometimes.. ggclose.. light mechs do not have the armour to take such hits..

However.. The upcoming anti target lock module might be invaluable for light mechs. Hopefully they cancel the effects of target decay as expected.

To be honest, I'll agree that since the Speed Increase, Target Decay is too long. That does need a slight nerfing, and not just in the form of a module, because then it starts getting the appearance of P2W (it isn't of course, because everyone CAN get the module eventually).

[Kurayami]

ShinVector, on 08 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Geee.. Like all mechs have ECM... If he talking about lights.. Unfortunately they do tend to get 1 shotted and maimed once in a while... I suspect due to that lucky tight group of ALRM50 salvo + Target decay... (dammn annoying to be track byed LRMs when you are fully behind a hill out of sight)

Myself I have gotten used to it by understand what a light can hide under to evade but if you happen to caught in the open which you need to be sometimes.. ggclose.. light mechs do not have the armour to take such hits..

However.. The upcoming anti target lock module might be invaluable for light mechs. Hopefully they cancel the effects of target decay as expected.

This was actually a quote from the forums emerged at times of "lrm 1.8 per missile - nerf hax noskill".

Actually with good enough ping and little luck light can just evade whole packs.

Ah good times of completely useless lrm - the glorious return of jump sniper meta.

JohanssenJr, on 08 June 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

...

oh but they are - "possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done"

[Mordin Ashe]

Most of proposed changes in this topic are great and would go a very looong way in MWO, but I still can't agree to LRMs being "skill-less". Agree with Johanssen, they require a lot of brains to make work, but basically they require the same skill as any weapon system does - aim and shoot. Granted, you don't have to aim at specific part of the Mech, but that is made up by having a lot of brain power that must go to general performance of player. No matter if you call it brains or skill though, LRMs are very needy of it, and I'm not that sure those two terms differ that much.

[ShinVector]

Thunder Child, on 08 June 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

To be honest, I'll agree that since the Speed Increase, Target Decay is too long. That does need a slight nerfing, and not just in the form of a module, because then it starts getting the appearance of P2W (it isn't of course, because everyone CAN get the module eventually).

My disdain from LRMs comes from this scenario where seek and destroy light mech pilots used to have time to find that one isolated mech and kill him before any help arrives... Ever since the speed up.. LRMs have made this play style too risky and not very viable.. You never know whether you are being tracked by LRM5 or ALRM50...

Oh well.. Adapted and LRM boats are my priority targets nowadays... Kill them fast before they can spam where possible.

Kurayami, on 08 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

This was actually a quote from the forums emerged at times of "lrm 1.8 per missile - nerf hax noskill".

Actually with good enough ping and little luck light can just evade whole packs.

Ah good times of completely useless lrm - the glorious return of jump sniper meta.


oh but they are - "possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done"

Honestly I have less issue with 1.8 damage LRMs of the past.. Could dodge them with JJs... I don't really try nowadays.. Better to just find the nearest overhang or roof.

Poptarters have 2-3 major nerfs upcoming.. It will be interesting.

Edited by ShinVector, 08 June 2014 - 09:23 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Kurayami, on 08 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

oh but they are - "possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done"

I don't generally throw mental faculties in with skill. When someone has the dumb, there is no fixing it.

But with practice, you can get more efficient with said tasking.

/shrugs, I just wish LRMs weren't trash heap weapons dependent on so many variables.

[Violent Nick]

Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Skill-less? Yes.
Overpowered? No. They are drastically underpowered with a 0.55 to 1 ratio with source for a single use and a 1.3 to 1 ratio for 10 seconds.

[color=#959595]They're effectively underpowered. But their spam and stacking so many of them cause problems.[/color]

Exactly. They are skill-less more or less. I don't have to prove it. They are the easiest weapons to use and that's just a fact; okay, sometimes they may hit cover instead of a target (which, if you're looking at your screen you should realise straight away!) but I wouldn't say it takes skill to use them. Certainly not the kind of skill it takes to hit a fast-moving spider with a PPC at 700m, or even to track a long range target with AC fire moving down a hill trying to avoid your fire.

I have no problem with LRMs other than what Koniving has said; they can fire very fast and they are often carried by several players in a team making the indirect fire aspect impossible to counter in some situations. Sometimes I'm not even sure if ecm helps, though apparently it's a 'hard counter'. A lot of people will bypass the argument and say Learn To Play when dealing with LRMs, but there are always occasions where there is simply nothing you can do having looked at the sky and seeing around 160-200 missiles coming your way. (It literally looked like an arc of fire coming at me from 1km away.. was in a boars head and just quit the game as my match was over.)

Ultimately though, you could use this argument against any weapon or module if it becomes over-used. I try not to use LRMS because I feel it's cheap and that I'd have more fun having to work for a kill. People cry to nerf the gauss even further but they are my favourite weapon and sometimes I even carry 3 on my Ilya Muromets. I can take an enemy down pretty fast with that, but it doesn't feel cheap because it really does take skill to hit the same spot several times on a moving mech 800m away.

When calling for a 'nerf' just remember that if you want, you can use the same weapons and tactics, and that they are VALID tactics. I think that if Koniving's suggestion were to go ahead LRMs would be more fun for people using them and being on the receiving end and that the game would be improved. Always up for that.

Take care guys!

[Kurayami]

ShinVector, on 08 June 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

My disdain from LRMs comes from this scenario where seek and destroy light mech pilots used to have time to find that one isolated mech and kill him before any help arrives... Ever since the speed up.. LRMs have made this play style too risky and not very viable.. You never know whether you are being tracked by LRM5 or ALRM50...

Oh well.. Adapted and LRM boats are my priority targets nowadays... Kill them fast before they can spam where possible.






Honestly I have less issue with 1.8 damage LRMs of the past.. Could dodge them with JJs... I don't really try nowadays.. Better to just find the nearest overhang or roof.

Poptarters have 2-3 major nerfs upcoming.. It will be interesting.

one thing i do want to see implemented is bug\feature of mw4 where player could just shoot down missiles with any type of weapon (mpl were excellent for this) - lots of fun.

indeed.

[Thunder Child]

Kurayami, on 08 June 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

one thing i do want to see implemented is bug\feature of mw4 where player could just shoot down missiles with any type of weapon (mpl were excellent for this) - lots of fun.

indeed.

As much as I would love this (just to give my 4 MGun Locust something to do), LRMs already have enough effective counters. They just need a few tweaks, either the Double-Double that Koniving has suggested, or a slight reduction to Target Decay times to prevent tracking around cover. Although, giving the ECM a good pummelling, and then rebuilding Missiles from there would be my preference. It should NOT be a complete Stealth. If anything, it should reduce Lock on Range by 180-250m (would need testing to see which is more balanced), increase Missile Lock Time by 2-3 secs (it never interfered with Missile Locks in TT, only with Narc, Artemis, TAG, and BAP), and prevent Info-Gathering. But it should STILL reveal the enemy location (how Guardian worked in TT), because at the moment, the main reason ECM allows PuGs to get rolled, is because many of them Require those little red Triangles to be able to function.
Edit: This would also allow ECM to be mounted on more mechs, because it would no longer be a MUST have for Ninja-Stealth.

Edited by Thunder Child, 08 June 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[DustySkunk]

OP,

Just because LRMs can automatically track a target (assuming proper lock) doesn't make them in need of immediate nerfing. As others have pointed out, there are more hard counters to LRMs than any other weapon in the game and LRMs are currently broken because they do not do enough damage. Koniving is 100% correct in his post.

If you're getting destroyed consistently by LRMs more than likely one of these three things is happening: your situational awareness needs improving, you are new to the game so you don't know effective LRM counter strategies, or you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got caught out by someone like me running my Cat.

If you are constantly getting destroyed by LRMs, stay close to high cover, be aware of where LRM boats are likely to be (or are firing from) so you can put that cover in between you and the missile rain, be aware of where your friendly ECMs are to break target lock, and know how/when to power down to force a target lock break. .... also FFS if you see a little red laser beam on your mech, break line of sight to it. Immediately. You will hate life if you don't. Finally, remember that LRMs do zero damage under 180m. If it's feasible you can close the distance with the boat and ruin his/her day.


Conversely, in terms of using LRMs:

I think LRMs can be a bit of a n00btrap~ easy to use but hard to get the most out of. They require little manual dexterity which can be attractive for a new player in the current state of the game (which rewards twitch style gameplay and pinpoint shots from high damage weapons). However to get the most out of them requires constant manuevering for better position (both for finding better firing arcs and to avoid being chewed up by lights), firing at priority targets, and knowing when *not* to fire. When should you not fire? Well, how many times have you seen a Stalker LRM boat unload waves of missiles into a cliff face (especially on Mordor) and just not notice that they were throwing their ammo down the toilet? Better yet, how many times have you seen LRM boats fire at a Spider moving at 150kph with ECM? Those missiles are *highly* unlikely to ever find their target. Finally, launching wave after wave of low count missile salvos at a group of mechs that are all carring AMS. These are prime examples of when not to let the LRMs fly.

There are tons of resources on this forum to educate people on the proper use of LRMs and I do hope more people will take the time to read them; both to learn how to do use them effectively, and how to avoid being eaten alive by them.

TL;DR
If you're getting rocked by LRMs, you need to educate yourself about how to counter them. Also, LRMs are not simple to use effectively, and are not an iWin button.

Edited by DustySkunk, 08 June 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[GonaDie]

My reaction to this " Nurf LURMS PLZ!'' nonsense.

Edited by GonaDie, 09 June 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[Zerberus]

OH WOOOW, it`s this thread again....

JohanssenJr, on 08 June 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

Skill: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

Cherry picking dictionary sub-entries is a fail.

From your original source at http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/skill :

Quote

1
obsolete : cause, reason

2
a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance

b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

3
: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

Both of the underlined entries clearly apply to LRM use. Only your cherry picked 2nd entry could be construed as not applying (though, actually, it still does, just not in a way you want to see because it undermines your already wonky standing ground, since Lrms require significantly more coordination that the poptart`s Duck Hunt simulator)

And completely regardless of that, if you`re regularly dying to a no skill weapon, what does that say about you? Especially when dozens /hundreds /thousands are not having the same problem but stuck in the same situations?

Could it be that their solutions actually work?

I know, it`s a thoroughly mind-boggling concept for most, that someone else may know or excel more than yourself, but it actually IS possible.

LRMs are MWOs version of CoD`s N00bTube... if you can`t beat them, you`re probably not good enough to be taken seriously when you complain about them.

Edited by Zerberus, 09 June 2014 - 12:32 AM.