684 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

I really hate this post Lynx, because it doesn't account for a lot of things.

Every time an LRM curves around a building, it's mostly by accident and not with any proper planning.

On top of that it doesn't account for the size of the building, or Radar Deprivation.

The "accident" is the missile tracking the target movement. Nothing much to do with the shooter or the target, that's the missile AI. Only the target can influence the missile movement, either by breaking lock or moving such that the LRMs Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT). In other words, crash into something else. The other variable is really the spotter, who feeds target lock back.

That's the fundamental. Everything else changes some variables in this, but the core remains.

Height of building just affects CFIT. If you dodge around a tall building and the missile tracks through the building, the missiles blow up against it. That happens often enough that it's a given. The complication really just comes in because the missiles exists in three dimensions, so it's a lot harder to gauge the path it might take, particularly since you're going to be a lot more busy dodging DF.

Radar Deprivation makes locks go away once you break LOS with all spotters, and that's the caveat -- all spotters. If even one still has LOS to you, the lock stays. So it's pretty useful in the initial contact phases of an engagement, and not as powerful once the enemy has either entered close range -- where locks are plentiful -- or when the enemy have infiltrated your lines and are spotting from behind your concealment.

On top of that, there's some greyness on how Radar Deprivation works against Advance Target Decay, but basic fundamentals are in place -- just some degrees of adjustments.

If I have one question to ask, what I'd ask is how does PGI program that AI tracking routine. Because seriously, sometimes the missiles just track too good, potentially doing collision avoidance on top of normal tracking. But again, from the air, a lot of maps are very exposed, so if a missile is merely tracking the path a mech is taking -- a mech which, naturally, cannot go through buildings -- it might be able to avoid buildings just merely by utilizing its height advantage.

Unfortunately, the tracking ability plus the trajectory behaviour information is just something PGI didn't release much on, as far as I know. There was an early thread about the trajectory change, but it was described in general, not specifics, which made it somewhat limited in use.

[Gas Guzzler]

I don't like the comparison that PPCs and gauss rifles just kill you with no warning, because the warning is seeing the Assault/Heavy Mech that can see you, where as you can be hiding behind DF cover and being LRMed to hell because some ECM light has LoS on you and you can't see them, and getting bombarded with LRMs make it hard to see anything. That is what makes them frustrating.

Do they need to be nerfed? No.

People get impatient and try to push out and get LRMed to death or NARCed and what not, and that sucks but it is part of the game. If the team is LRM heavy you really have to find the right way to push the LRM boats or go somewhere on the map that takes away LRMs. If you are on Caustic though, you might by SoL, whatever you do, you just need to do quickly.

[WarHippy]

Scrotacus 42, on 16 July 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

@Bhael Fire.

But see that's the point man, people like me get so butthurt because LRM PILOTS ARENT BETTER THAN THEM. It feels inherently cheesy or no one would ***** about it. Ever. Getting LRM to death inherently robs you of the feeling of putting your skill level against that of another pilot. Its one thing if you are out of position, its another thing if you are running to cover and somehow the LRMS follow you over a hill and around a corner and blow your leg off and they never saw you and weren't even aiming for your legs. LRMS are punitive against aggressive pilots and they are absolute cheese sauce. They are ******* child's play once you know the cardinal rules of LRMing properly.

Just because you or others brought a radar dep module and pilots some slow ass mech that just sits around all day by a wall or a building under ECM doesn't mean everyone else should or wants to do the same thing. As has been said now Radar Dep modules are MANDATORY in pugging, and if your like me and god forbid you don't have the GXP to get it yet and like to pilot something besides a ******* Timberwolf or an ECM mech then yea, LRMs are a problem. Sometimes people whine because gee theres actually something to whine about and they have no recourse for change other than to speak up. The fact this **** keeps popping up every day should tell you all something. I know how to ******* play, I've played 3,500 matches, am I a top tier player? No, but I'm no scrub either. I'm not an idiot I get what cover is and how to twist away from LRMS but that isn't always an option and a lot of maps have no appreciable cover. Its a problem, I'm going to aggressively say stuff about it, and no amount of passive aggressive internet douche-bag elitism is going to dissuade me. So if your going to tell me "L2P, deal with it". Then I'm going to always counter with "learn to accept and understand that others may have a legitimate point and they are going to keep at it, get over it".

EDIT: and while Im at it I'm going to just throw in that arty/airstrike is complete bull-**** and has no place in this game as it is currently implemented. You should have to have a UAV up and have to use the battle grid to call it in on a coordinate lit up by the UAV. This point and click AC/35s from heaven is nonsense. It isn't tactical, it isn't skillful. Its just bull-****.

A lot of bitching and complaining about LRMs and Arty/Air strikes all crammed into one post. All you need now is to complain about OP Clan mechs and you will have a trifecta of pointless drivel.

Radar Dep is not mandatory, however it is very helpful
Finding cover isn't hard if you find it so you know where it is before you get rained on instead of waiting until the missiles are already on their way while you panic looking for cover.

Mokey Mot, on 17 July 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

All those either running LRMs or defending them, saying "they're fine", or "use cover, ecm, and ams", or mind numbingly "learn to play N00B", are failing to take into account how overused they are.
If 1 mech fits them, fine; piloted correctly it can be an asset to one team, and still dealt with by the other...But it's not just one. You are getting 3 mechs toting 30 and up lrms. You add to that a brutal matchmaker, and a half decent 4 man on a team; and you have yourself a steamroll where the opposite team can do little more than a combined 300 damage. There you have yourself a game breaker.

Overused? Not from where I sit. Sometimes there are several people with LRMs and sometimes I have games where nobody seems to have them. They hardly seem overused.

As for the matchmaker being brutal I disagree because the only thing brutal about it is that it doesn't allow me to drop in the group queue if I want as a solo player. I also have to ask. Are you really complaining about premades still? You do know that all groups 2-10/12 are currently dropping in the group queue only right? As of right now there are no half decent or otherwise 4 man groups on any team in the pug queue.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

I don't like the comparison that PPCs and gauss rifles just kill you with no warning, because the warning is seeing the Assault/Heavy Mech that can see you, where as you can be hiding behind DF cover and being LRMed to hell because some ECM light has LoS on you and you can't see them, and getting bombarded with LRMs make it hard to see anything. That is what makes them frustrating.

Do they need to be nerfed? No.

People get impatient and try to push out and get LRMed to death or NARCed and what not, and that sucks but it is part of the game. If the team is LRM heavy you really have to find the right way to push the LRM boats or go somewhere on the map that takes away LRMs. If you are on Caustic though, you might by SoL, whatever you do, you just need to do quickly.

Sorry?

Yes if that poptart is directly in front of me I can see him crest the ridge for about 1 and a half seconds...and if I have FLD PP as well (Meta beats Meta) I might be able to put a shot into him. Otherwise I've got less than a second of laser burn time, missiles that will probably miss due to either terrain or radar derp, or I just do no damage while I take anywhere from 30 to 40 damage to a torso.

But if that poptart is on the side or behind me? I'm just taking that 30-40 damage with no warning and I have to use the flashing red on my mech to realize where the shot came from. And he's probably back in cover before I can even find him.

And that doesn't even include ECM covering, and making it so target indicators don't show up.

Do you know what happens when LRMs are fired at me? Even if they are indirect?

A HUGE FREAKING WARNING.

And you know what? If I were really worried about LRMs, I could have AMS cutting down on the damage even if I didn't know where they were. And I can immediately start twisting to spread the damage. And I probably have Radar Dep installed, so I'm switching which side of the cover I'm on to break LOS since I know I'm being spotted by someone.

See the difference? Due to the HUGE MISSILE WARNING, I can start making all sorts of defensive maneuvers to either stop or cut down on damage.

Whereas with PPC/Gauss, I'm taking that hit unless they miss, because you can't react to Gauss/PPC until AFTER the shot.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Sorry?

Yes if that poptart is directly in front of me I can see him crest the ridge for about 1 and a half seconds...and if I have FLD PP as well (Meta beats Meta) I might be able to put a shot into him. Otherwise I've got less than a second of laser burn time, missiles that will probably miss due to either terrain or radar derp, or I just do no damage while I take anywhere from 30 to 40 damage to a torso.

But if that poptart is on the side or behind me? I'm just taking that 30-40 damage with no warning and I have to use the flashing red on my mech to realize where the shot came from. And he's probably back in cover before I can even find him.

And that doesn't even include ECM covering, and making it so target indicators don't show up.

Do you know what happens when LRMs are fired at me? Even if they are indirect?

A HUGE FREAKING WARNING.

And you know what? If I were really worried about LRMs, I could have AMS cutting down on the damage even if I didn't know where they were. And I can immediately start twisting to spread the damage. And I probably have Radar Dep installed, so I'm switching which side of the cover I'm on to break LOS since I know I'm being spotted by someone.

See the difference? Due to the HUGE MISSILE WARNING, I can start making all sorts of defensive maneuvers to either stop or cut down on damage.

Whereas with PPC/Gauss, I'm taking that hit unless they miss, because you can't react to Gauss/PPC until AFTER the shot.

You really have my number don't you?

I have given nothing but reasonable comments and assessments to situations but you always get so bent out of shape like I am trying to take a toy away from you.

If I see someone popping up at the distance, I cut my losses and know that they will be able to hit me before I hit them, and twist away and get behind cover to try to get a different angle. That is a different situation then the LRMs, yeah you get a missile warning but it doesn't give you much if you have a pesky ECM spotter and there is no cover for LRMs, because face it, there isn't always LRM arcing cover available.

I don't get what your problem is as I am practically arguing the same point as you: that LRMs don't need to be nerfed.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

You really have my number don't you?

I have given nothing but reasonable comments and assessments to situations but you always get so bent out of shape like I am trying to take a toy away from you.

If I see someone popping up at the distance, I cut my losses and know that they will be able to hit me before I hit them, and twist away and get behind cover to try to get a different angle. That is a different situation then the LRMs, yeah you get a missile warning but it doesn't give you much if you have a pesky ECM spotter and there is no cover for LRMs, because face it, there isn't always LRM arcing cover available.

I don't get what your problem is as I am practically arguing the same point as you: that LRMs don't need to be nerfed.

I didn't even see your name. I don't really care about WHO makes the post, unless it's HoL asking for nerfs to specific chassis.

And my issue is with this quote:

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

I don't like the comparison that PPCs and gauss rifles just kill you with no warning, because the warning is seeing the Assault/Heavy Mech that can see you, where as you can be hiding behind DF cover and being LRMed to hell because some ECM light has LoS on you and you can't see them, and getting bombarded with LRMs make it hard to see anything. That is what makes them frustrating. Do they need to be nerfed? No.

While I agree with your conclusion, I can't fathom how you got there. And your logic is very frustrating and feeds into the whining.

LRMs = Big warning no matter what when they are fired and due to travel time and counters you have time to react, PPC/Gauss = You can potentially see someone firing at you depending on a lot of variables, but you still can't react, you can only hope they miss.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 17 July 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I didn't even see your name. I don't really care about WHO makes the post, unless it's HoL asking for nerfs to specific chassis.

And my issue is with this quote:



While I agree with your conclusion, I can't fathom how you got there. And your logic is very frustrating and feeds into the whining.

LRMs = Big warning no matter what when they are fired and due to travel time and counters you have time to react, PPC/Gauss = You can potentially see someone firing at you depending on a lot of variables, but you still can't react, you can only hope they miss.

It just seems like every time I say something in a thread you are watching, you respond to me with hostility, but perhaps that is just a coincidence.

LRMs = Big warning yes, but sometimes there is nothing you can do, other times there is
PPC/Gauss = Yes it doesn't give you a lot of time to react, but one can also infer what locations are good shooting galleries for snipers, and expect to get sniped, and therefore can keep moving, put arms between you and them, etc.

In the end, both are effective/dangerous.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

It just seems like every time I say something in a thread you are watching, you respond to me with hostility, but perhaps that is just a coincidence.

LRMs = Big warning yes, but sometimes there is nothing you can do, other times there is
PPC/Gauss = Yes it doesn't give you a lot of time to react, but one can also infer what locations are good shooting galleries for snipers, and expect to get sniped, and therefore can keep moving, put arms between you and them, etc.

In the end, both are effective/dangerous.

What situation is there NOTHING you can do against LRMs?

And I'm ALWAYS hostile in LRM threads because ALL of them are dumb as hell.

I'm just going to ignore the "what locations are good shooting galleries for snipers" because that's just silly.

[Wolfways]

PhoenixFire55, on 16 July 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Still waiting for LRMs to have their appropriate 1.0 damage per missile values ... nuff said.

Because that was the stat in TT? I guess you'd be okay with LRM's (and every other weapon) having an instant travel time too...just like TT. And all weapons hitting random locations like in TT...

[Gas Guzzler]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

What situation is there NOTHING you can do against LRMs?

And I'm ALWAYS hostile in LRM threads because ALL of them are dumb as hell.

I'm just going to ignore the "what locations are good shooting galleries for snipers" because that's just silly.

Uhh ECM spotter while getting pummeled because you can't see anything much less aim.

NARC on a map with no good LRM cover

Sometimes there is limited LRM cover and being used by teammates so you can't get there.

I mean when 4 LRM boats get a lock on you, they can mess you up pretty good.

None of these reasons make them OP/unbalanced, mind you, just can be a pain in the ass.


Why is that silly? Do you poke your head up on Canyon with no horizontal movement? You shouldn't because that makes you an easy target and a sniper can nail you from across the map. Nothing makes a sniper happier then a Raven that pops up and stands there. I don't know, it's not hard to not make yourself an easy target if you aren't involved in an exchange.

We all know why these threads are here. People get frustrated watching 150+ missiles streaking across the sky that they know will leave them mangled. Same reason people get frustrated by snipers focusing and taking them apart...

People don't like being killed and like to blame game mechanics instead of themselves.

[Wolfways]

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Clan LRMs, now with no minimum range, what more can they give you for easy mode?

If you're afraid of CLRM's under minimum range i suggest actually putting some armour on your mech.

[Lootee]

LRMs need Swarm ammo. That way if the original target ducks behind cover and breaks the lock they automatically head towards the closest nearby mech.

The QQ would be delicious. And it'd bone poptarts even more.

[Wolfways]

Scrotacus 42, on 16 July 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

@Bhael Fire.

But see that's the point man, people like me get so butthurt because LRM PILOTS ARENT BETTER THAN THEM. It feels inherently cheesy or no one would ***** about it. Ever. Getting LRM to death inherently robs you of the feeling of putting your skill level against that of another pilot. Its one thing if you are out of position, its another thing if you are running to cover and somehow the LRMS follow you over a hill and around a corner and blow your leg off and they never saw you and weren't even aiming for your legs. LRMS are punitive against aggressive pilots and they are absolute cheese sauce. They are ******* child's play once you know the cardinal rules of LRMing properly.

Just because you or others brought a radar dep module and pilots some slow ass mech that just sits around all day by a wall or a building under ECM doesn't mean everyone else should or wants to do the same thing. As has been said now Radar Dep modules are MANDATORY in pugging, and if your like me and god forbid you don't have the GXP to get it yet and like to pilot something besides a ******* Timberwolf or an ECM mech then yea, LRMs are a problem. Sometimes people whine because gee theres actually something to whine about and they have no recourse for change other than to speak up. The fact this **** keeps popping up every day should tell you all something. I know how to ******* play, I've played 3,500 matches, am I a top tier player? No, but I'm no scrub either. I'm not an idiot I get what cover is and how to twist away from LRMS but that isn't always an option and a lot of maps have no appreciable cover. Its a problem, I'm going to aggressively say stuff about it, and no amount of passive aggressive internet douche-bag elitism is going to dissuade me. So if your going to tell me "L2P, deal with it". Then I'm going to always counter with "learn to accept and understand that others may have a legitimate point and they are going to keep at it, get over it".

EDIT: and while Im at it I'm going to just throw in that arty/airstrike is complete bull-**** and has no place in this game as it is currently implemented. You should have to have a UAV up and have to use the battle grid to call it in on a coordinate lit up by the UAV. This point and click AC/35s from heaven is nonsense. It isn't tactical, it isn't skillful. Its just bull-****.

So what do you expect of someone who thinks...actually no, who knows that just about everything you just said is wrong, the proof being their own matches? They are wrong because their opinion differs from yours, or they must be right because they are obviously doing something that you are having trouble doing?

Edited by Wolfways, 17 July 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Clan LRMs, now with no minimum range, what more can they give you for easy mode?

Full damage at point blank, as they have had for 30 years!


Well, you asked!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 July 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Uhh ECM spotter while getting pummeled because you can't see anything much less aim.

NARC on a map with no good LRM cover

Sometimes there is limited LRM cover and being used by teammates so you can't get there.

I mean when 4 LRM boats get a lock on you, they can mess you up pretty good.

None of these reasons make them OP/unbalanced, mind you, just can be a pain in the ass.


Why is that silly? Do you poke your head up on Canyon with no horizontal movement? You shouldn't because that makes you an easy target and a sniper can nail you from across the map. Nothing makes a sniper happier then a Raven that pops up and stands there. I don't know, it's not hard to not make yourself an easy target if you aren't involved in an exchange.

We all know why these threads are here. People get frustrated watching 150+ missiles streaking across the sky that they know will leave them mangled. Same reason people get frustrated by snipers focusing and taking them apart...

People don't like being killed and like to blame game mechanics instead of themselves.

All of your posts are so bi-polar.

You say you don't want an LRM nerf, but what you actually post contradicts that.

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Uhh ECM spotter while getting pummeled because you can't see anything much less aim.

NARC on a map with no good LRM cover

ECM Spotter....while getting pummeled...because you can't see and aim.

Well first things first, this means you were in soft cover, not hard cover. Because even if you are being spotted, if you are in hard cover you can't be hit.

But lets assume some how the ECM spotter got around and on top of that the LRM boat had some kind of crazy angle to get around your cover.

Well you're saying you can't do anything because of the shake. Well that just means you are bad and panicing.

First...you shouldn't be "trying to aim" that's the BIGGEST mistake everyone makes in this game. I HAVE TO GET MY SHOT OFF AND I DON'T CARE IF I DIE DOING IT.

Happens against LRMs, PPC, Gauss, SRMs, EVERYTHING. No one is willing to make defensive maneuvers then whine, ***** and moan when they die.

Second, if you have an ECM spotter and your hard cover is being bypassed, you should be shifting around to make sure the hard cover is taking effect.

If you are in soft cover...well first...bad on you for that....but given that is the case you should be either moving towards your ECM or shifting around the soft cover to break the light mechs lock.

Once again this requires you not panicing and you should be torso twisting/bunny hopping to spread the damage.

And assuming once against that you aren't bad, you are with your group and someone should be taking shots at the ECM light to force it off.

As for "NARC and bad maps".

Well there are two maps that really have that issue. And the rest are only if YOU were out of position.

Whereas we also have double that amount of maps that are VERY unfriendly to LRMs.

So a fair trade.

[Fut]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I mean when 4 LRM boats get a lock on you, they can mess you up pretty good.

None of these reasons make them OP/unbalanced, mind you, just can be a pain in the ass.

... I mean, when 4 PPC/AC Meta Builds get a bead on you, they can mess you up pretty good.
Any argument that includes multiple Mechs against a single target should be ignored immediately. 4 Mechs running only SLs could mess you up pretty bad. It's a pain in the ass.

[-Natural Selection-]

Because 5 twits can focus lrms on you while you engage one guy in a brawl. Yes that is the same as a one guy with a gauss firing at you.

just saying.. LRMs don't bother me either way.

[Gas Guzzler]

Fut, on 17 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

... I mean, when 4 PPC/AC Meta Builds get a bead on you, they can mess you up pretty good.
Any argument that includes multiple Mechs against a single target should be ignored immediately. 4 Mechs running only SLs could mess you up pretty bad. It's a pain in the ass.

Yeah like I didn't realize that.. you can choose how many meta mechs you engage though. If you engage anyone though you get all the LRM boats too. So there is a difference but once again, no desire here to nerf them.

[pwnface]

I think the point is that LRM spam is annoying but isn't overpowered. There are several counters to LRMs which can make it nearly useless in many situations. Anyone who really thinks LRMs are a major issue right now hasn't played against people who can actually aim. The OP wants to be able to walk around in the open without getting LRM'd to death, but assumes that good players with direct fire wouldn't be able to alpha him to death in even less time. There is an overerall lower skillcap to playing LRMs which is why they are so prevalent in pug matches, but they are in no way overpowered. I'd prefer my entire 12 man team to be direct fire only, because AIMING is overpowered not LRMs.

Edited by pwnface, 17 July 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Aim64C]

PanchoTortilla, on 17 July 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

LRMs need Swarm ammo. That way if the original target ducks behind cover and breaks the lock they automatically head towards the closest nearby mech.

The QQ would be delicious. And it'd bone poptarts even more.

I could see the team kill their own poptart over this. It'd be hilarious.

"Hey, dumbass - stop it, you're getting us bombarded with LRMs."

"*jump, fire, miss*"

"Hey, poptart for brains, knock it off. Kill the missiles first."

"*Jump, fire, miss*"

"**** this. *Direwolf Autocannon barrage to the back*"