684 replies to this topic

[SolasTau]

Just quickly, I do think the LRM shake being equivalent to an AC20 makes sense... for Inner Sphere LRM systems where you get hit with a cloud of missiles all at once. The Clan systems on the other hand should be much more similar to being hit with a stream of small shells, like AC2. However, I can understand the various LRM5 builds out there abusing screen shake to be viable/more viable. There's likely a better middle ground in there.

Realistically, to kill someone with LRM's, I have to dump around 200 missiles into that target alone, provided it's (for whatever reason) just ME shelling them. Contrast that to a well appointed Gauss/PPC Alpha that can kill in a single shot, and really... LRM's are not OP at all. If LRM's had their weird head hit table turned on in MWO, I would understand all the complaining quite a bit more (blowing the head off a 'mech with LRM's being totally legit in BT), but that's just not the case. I don't think I've ever even SEEN an LRM hit a 'mechs head in MWO, and that's having fired 40k of them.

[Wolfways]

Lynx7725, on 21 July 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Do I think there are aspects of LRMs that can be improved? Sure. There are secondary traits that I think can be tweaked. Do I want to change the role of the LRMs? I don't see the need personally, because that weapon system brings diversity to tactics and playstyles in the game.

If PGI intends LRM's to be primarily indirect weapons then i do have a problem with that as it completely changes the purpose of mechs, not to mention makes one of my favourite weapons completely pointless for me as i have no desire to use indirect-fire.
Lore-wise it also makes no sense. Why would the clans, who prefer honourable 1-on-1 fights continue to develop LRM's if they are primarily "support weapons"?

[Lynx7725]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

If PGI intends LRM's to be primarily indirect weapons then i do have a problem with that as it completely changes the purpose of mechs, not to mention makes one of my favourite weapons completely pointless for me as i have no desire to use indirect-fire.
Lore-wise it also makes no sense. Why would the clans, who prefer honourable 1-on-1 fights continue to develop LRM's if they are primarily "support weapons"?

As of right now, PGI gave LRM both a direct and indirect capabilities, with no other weapons having an indirect capability; so in that sense it's a dual-role weapon, and suffers accordingly in other aspects (accuracy and damage, for example). That's the in-game design philo that they appear to be using. I personally have no issue with it, so I don't have an overwhelming urge to tinker.

Given the above, there's also nothing wrong with Clans dueling with LRMs, right? Besides, Clans are still military, and they continued to develop weaponry that have a military usage. Indirect/ Plunging fire has been a part of military tactics for so many years, it would be folly for them not to continue development to some degree.

[Wolfways]

Lynx7725, on 21 July 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

As of right now, PGI gave LRM both a direct and indirect capabilities, with no other weapons having an indirect capability; so in that sense it's a dual-role weapon, and suffers accordingly in other aspects (accuracy and damage, for example). That's the in-game design philo that they appear to be using. I personally have no issue with it, so I don't have an overwhelming urge to tinker.

Given the above, there's also nothing wrong with Clans dueling with LRMs, right? Besides, Clans are still military, and they continued to develop weaponry that have a military usage. Indirect/ Plunging fire has been a part of military tactics for so many years, it would be folly for them not to continue development to some degree.

Well if they do intend to make my favourite weapons pointless i wish they'd tell me. I could have stopped waiting for this to be a good game 2 years ago

[Lynx7725]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

Well if they do intend to make my favourite weapons pointless i wish they'd tell me. I could have stopped waiting for this to be a good game 2 years ago

Yeah well.. we don't win everything, everytime.

[Johnny Reb]

SolasTau, on 21 July 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks LRM's are zero skill weapons that need to be nerfed has evidently never lost salvos of missiles into buildings, oddly placed rocks, normally placed rocks, the ground, or had a lock suddenly go blank RIGHT as they fired. Nevermind firing salvos like a noob at a target that can easily break LoS and lock with you, or firing the odd panic shot just to realize you dumb fired your LRM's before getting a lock. Yep. No skill involved.

Why don't I flip it around on you. PPC's and Autocannons are zero skill weapons because all you have to do is point and click. Lasers are zero skill weapons because you can miss with them and still do damage to your target. Gauss Rifles are zero skill weapons because you really only have to hit once or twice with them to begin crippling a mech. Small Lasers and AC2's were OP, so they each received nerfs. Anything is OP in the hands of the right user.

I keep saying it. The one thing I have seen conclusively in this game is how important firing discipline is. If you don't have good firing discipline, you will get destroyed. If you don't push with your allies, not only do you leave them out there to die alone, you are ALSO splitting the firepower of your team. Similarly, if you rush in when your team is holding back, all you've done is split your teams total firepower so you can die a hero.

I AM a noob at this game. I've only played a few weeks now with a very hectic work schedule. Don't conflate the things that are legitimately hard to learn about this game with your crying about LRMs. You're engaged in affirming the consequent (a formal logic fallacy) because you're sick of being pelted from the sky. If X is true does not automatically make Y ALSO true.

Noob tip from a noob: If the missile siren thingie is screaming at you, it is a bad time to poke your head to shoot the bad guys. You should wait for the missile siren thingie to shut up and possibly fall back to a position behind cover. Also, it would be idea to look around for spotter mechs if you think you should have broken line of sight and the enemy is still locking you up.

Well said. Fire focus and arty focus are the keys to top teams against each other. Why use lrm when your team has arty with meta ballistic/ppc. I get this info from hearsay since I dont play in said matches.

edit: I think the biggest misconception of why lrm are so OP is because ppl who are starting out or just inept want to blame something for there failure. They will never know constant arty bombardment or jump snipers(except maybe a JJ snipe drops with them but its a one guy not coordinated team thing), unless they rank up. It is easy to pick out lrms as the bad guy much harder to pick out the sudden damage death from a poptart. LRM's are in your face and you know you got lrm'ed, when you do!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 21 July 2014 - 10:05 PM.

[Sandpit]

Johnny Reb, on 21 July 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

edit: I think the biggest misconception of why lrm are so OP is because ppl who are starting out or just inept want to blame something for there failure.

it used to be premades

seriously though. LRMs are a viable weapon. They're not op by any means. If I can survive and thrive in the game in a stalker that's lucky to hit 60 kph going downhill, then using your noggins a bit more to watch how others are doing it and don't be so offended when players offer you tips and try to help.

[Black Ivan]

I still wish PGI had implemented hard point sizes and limits. The amount of LRM boats running around is incredible high. Radar Dep modul is must have now.

[Sandpit]

Black Ivan, on 21 July 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

I still wish PGI had implemented hard point sizes and limits. The amount of LRM boats running around is incredible high. Radar Dep modul is must have now.

everybody used to say the exact same thing about ecm.
those are nice to have but not required. I don't even run AMS on my stalker.

and if everyone will recall. They buffed them not too long ago and almost immediately nerfed them again. They've already been nerfed. They weren't even that bad before.

[Lynx7725]

Sandpit, on 21 July 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

and if everyone will recall. They buffed them not too long ago and almost immediately nerfed them again. They've already been nerfed. They weren't even that bad before.

The 180m/s LRMs? I get at least 10~20% more damage. That IMO is getting a bit too close to the line where they cross into broken territory. So the back off from that was warranted.

[Wolfways]

Black Ivan, on 21 July 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Radar Dep modul is must have now.

People keep saying that. I'm still trying to see why it isn't the most pointless module there is.

[Sandpit]

Lynx7725, on 21 July 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

The 180m/s LRMs? I get at least 10~20% more damage. That IMO is getting a bit too close to the line where they cross into broken territory. So the back off from that was warranted.

clan lrms, I still don't get, it would have just been much easier to treat them as SRMs under 180m and dumbfire them because their guidance system or some such can't achieve flight path under that range, whatever you want to make the fluff.

Then they don't somehow magically lose potency under 180m. That one just didn't make sense to me

[ShinVector]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

I find it strange that the Spider needed your ECM.
Very few people fire LRM's at a light, and even less lights get hit by LRM's because they have the speed to get into cover fast.

I don't think you play that game enough to realise the change in tactics.
ECM is being rended useless thanks to the improved NARC.

And yes ever since the speed buff.. LRMs are a whole lot more effective on lights. Now ECM can prove to be liability for pilots who don't realise they should not be messing with Light carrying NARC.

[Kjudoon]

We've touched on an interesting point. Multiple types of Missiles to accomplish different effects making them a much more flexible and usable weapon that could change ranges or effect with them.

ShinVector, on 21 July 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

I don't think you play that game enough to realise the change in tactics.
ECM is being rended useless thanks to the improved NARC.

And yes ever since the speed buff.. LRMs are a whole lot more effective on lights. Now ECM can prove to be liability for pilots who don't realise they should not be messing with Light carrying NARC.

I actually got into the Queue in Derptown and saw ECM reign supreme and even in the games where NARC was being used quite successfully, it still wasn't overpowered because those rather good players knew how to use it to coax out bad LRMboats missiles in futility One guy got narced 4 different times and kept right on plugging without fear. Even I couldn't close the books on him when I got the chance. That was a good pilot working well with cover and ECM to thwart narc play.

That said, bad players will die nigh instantly to Narc plus LRMs...

[Kjudoon]

Wolfways, on 21 July 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

People keep saying that. I'm still trying to see why it isn't the most pointless module there is.

I love my Raderp. Just Looooooooooove it! Drives me crazy when others have it because it breaks those locks at critical moments and lets me get away with murder. Just gotta use it with cover and time it right. But when I hear that squee of it breaking locks... I know someone's just wasted their missiles on me.

Raderp works great for my money... and even more frustrating on my Raven 3L

[Sug]

As far as my matches go LRMs only seem to matter on Caustic. They need to add some fluff about the atmosphere being too thick/hot/toxic and nerf LRMs on that map.

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 21 July 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

I actually got into the Queue in Derptown and saw ECM reign supreme and even in the games where NARC was being used quite successfully, it still wasn't overpowered because those rather good players knew how to use it to coax out bad LRMboats missiles in futility One guy got narced 4 different times and kept right on plugging without fear. Even I couldn't close the books on him when I got the chance. That was a good pilot working well with cover and ECM to thwart narc play.

That said, bad players will die nigh instantly to Narc plus LRMs...

I am still doing R&D on my aNARCist Jenner game play but this is things from my perspective.

I died due to my stupidly later but look what happens to the ECM Raven...
Some of the people here will deny that a ECM Raven would ever die to LRM fire..
I will submit this as proof of how NARC used at the right time and moment destroys even an ECM Light.



Another similar out come... Look at that rain... LOS no longer and issue on NARCed targets.



Edit:
Record of my last 13 games in the aNARCist Jenner. Not bad ehh ?

• 4MAN WIN 12-4 ALPINE
  
• 4MAN WIN 12-4 MORDOR
  
• 4MAN WIN 12-3 CANYON
  
• 4MAN WIN 12-1 CANYON
  
• 4MAN WIN 12-2 CAUSTIC
  
• SOLO WIN 12-1 MORDOR
  
• SOLO WIN 11-9 CANYON
  
• SOLO WIN 12-1 MORDOR
  
• SOLO WIN 12-3 RIVER CITY NIGHT
  
• SOLO LOST 1-12 CAUSTIC (MM STRIKES WITH TERRIBADS)
  
• 2MAN WIN 12-2 ALPINE
  
• 2MAN WIN 12-3 HPG
  
• 2MAN WIN 12-2 MORDOR

Edited by ShinVector, 22 July 2014 - 02:22 AM.

[Violator]

I rage a lot when i get killed by LRM rain,they're just annoying but i don't think they need to be nerfed. For a while i also thought they were OP so i tried to use this "advantage". I was USELESS.

Every weapon needs a certrain amount of skill and tactics and every weapon can be countered by certain tactics. LRMs need their own tactics and skills to be effective and different tactics and playstyle to counter them.

[Muhvi]

lrms are strategic weapon. in tactical sense you don't need much skill, you just need to understand when to shoot and when not. but in strategic sense it is really important to understand who you should shoot and who you shouldn't.

lots of people play this game with glass cannon mechs, i just love killing them with lrms, then i enjoy their whine afterwards if they do whine. riflemen are usually most fun to kill.

[Yokaiko]

Black Ivan, on 21 July 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

I still wish PGI had implemented hard point sizes and limits. The amount of LRM boats running around is incredible high. Radar Dep modul is must have now.

Do you know how many mechs have LRM launchers......and large ones.....stock?