106 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

Jun Watarase, on 11 June 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

This isn't very correct, communities decide what people are allowed to do. It's a basic social rule. You do not wear a clown suit to a funeral and then starts rules lawyering about how "theres no law saying i cant wear a clown suit to a funeral!" when people tell you its inappropriate. Im really getting tired of explaining this.

This is a problem, if the community decides there are only a couple of builds on a couple of mechs that is appropriate, then the size of your community drops signifigantly as there are so many other games out there and the majority of people will get bored of the forced gameplay, even those that deem the current meta the only appropriate way to play. I would argue that the only reason MWO is having any sort of success is because it's a battletech game, if it was some other generic name it wouldn't have made it out of 'beta'. In fact they probably wouldn't have even made enough funds to start.

So it's more like saying you have to wear blue coveralls to a bar to be appropriate, even tho the bar next door allows you to wear whatever you want and they both have beer. A funeral is a somewhat forced situation with lots of cultural traditions which dictates behavior, even then i'd bet you'd go to some funerials in other cultures and you would be the one not acting appropriate by their standards.

[Bigbacon]

what I would really like to see is some metrics on how often each mech and then each variant gets used..

[R Razor]

Bigbacon, on 12 June 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

what I would really like to see is some metrics on how often each mech and then each variant gets used..

That would be skewed though unless you included a minimum amount of drops......I would suggest 500 or more to get a true read on what the committed MWO players are gravitating to.

[Diomed]

If the 'meta' makes you angry blame PGI, not the players running it. If LRMs make you angry, again, it's PGI's fault. We did not make this game, we only play it. This is the one case where it is literally true that you should, "hate the game, not the player."

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Kyle Wright, on 11 June 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Ladies and Germs,

Start off first by apologizing to some of you that I have butt heads with this past week. None of us, including, myself should ever get mad over a video game and the people that play the game.

So I am starting to see a huge divide among our small community similar to what you see between say a SUPER WEALTHY CLASS and a VERY POOR LOWER CLASS. It really does suck and trust me I can see where both sides are coming from.

Class Breakdown:

META BANDWAGON UPPER TIER: Deemed "try hards" these are the people that usually play in the competitive scene of league play. Since Ive started in open beta these are the guys that usually find out the builds that do maximum damage. Ex. Splat Cat, 4ERPPC+ Guass Stalkers, and any number of Jumsnipers"Pop Tarts." Now when they run these meta builds in a group it only heightens there team work ability of moving together and targeting like targets with the best combination of firepower. Some believe PUB or "PUGS" are no skill scrubs, or just need to play in a group, or learn the meta, or just simply treat every match as you win some you lose some.

CASUAL JOE SCHMO PUBLIC QUE PLAYERS: Here to have a good time and kill a hour or to. Most are lonewolfs that dont want the hassle of a group. Others just want to play with maybe a handful of their real life friends. Sometimes they use builds that simply just dont work, and sometimes even get mad about said builds, but its trial and error. Most believe it should be like table top rules across the board. Believe META players want to watch the whole gaming world burn, think they dont care about the game, have no skill because they use optimized builds, and just simply a tryhard.


WHERE WE ALL WENT WRONG:

- No one wants to see this game burn.
- No one should be telling players what mechs to run
- No one should be calling each other names like Scrubs or Try Hards
- LASTLY NO ONE SHOULD BE TELLING ANOTHER PERSON HOW THEY SHOULD HAVE FUN PLAYING THIS GAME.


Take it from me. I started playign when meta was PPC stalkers. My first mech a poor little blackjack got shredded. After 24 hours I wanted to quit but instead was invited to HHoD where I learned to play from what i thought was some of the best players in the game at the time. Fast-forward a year now I am starting to make a breakout int he competitive seen with friends that I have grown with as Ive played these many months. In our 12-man drops yeah I get stuck playing poptarts and I hate it. I wish mechs like my Hunchback and Yen Lo were more viable, because at heart they are my favorite. But during peak play hours if I aint running meta I get stomped over and over and over and it hurts. Like some Groundhog Day action from when I first started.

I wish that most of the Comp guys played 12-mans non-stop because it is the ultimate test of skill working as one unit. Truth is now a days there is only maybe a handful of teams that even play 12s anymore, so that forces comp teams to PUG in 4-mans instead.

As far as the builds go. Aside from the META, lets talk just talk non optimized builds. Now, there is no right or wrong way to build mechs. Essentially its a theme that a player shoots for instead, ex. Brawlers, firesupport, skirmisher, snipers, etc. Got to think of mechs in the same way you do food. Weapons being equivalent to flavor combinations of your favorite meals. Some combinations of weapons just simply dont work, they dont compliment each other, or they dont compliment your playstyle. Simple example, ever try putting water on cereal because you ran out of milk? It does not taste the same and almost ruins your breakfast. No matter how much some of us want a mech build idea to be the best there are always better combinations out there that more people will like. Go watch the show Kitchen Nightmares. Just because you think your food is the best and taste great doesnt mean the general public does.

At the end of the day neither group has much control over what PGI does, but we all need to do our best to weather the storm the best we can.



Now I would like everyone to come together and lets bring this fractured community together. Id like both side Competitive and Casual players to comment. Id also like a moderator to handle people trying to insult and troll.This thread should be a way for both sides to meet and discuss in a civil manner.

Thank you.

Glad you're finally starting seeing the light, and I applaud your effort. The game itself is so far behind in needed maintenance and balance fixes that addressing the community is the only way plausible for change atm.

Diomed, on 12 June 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

If the 'meta' makes you angry blame PGI, not the players running it. If LRMs make you angry, again, it's PGI's fault. We did not make this game, we only play it. This is the one case where it is literally true that you should, "hate the game, not the player."

Was it bad player attitudes whom manipulated testing that shaped the game's bad design, or was it bad game design that created bad habits and player attitudes?

It's a what came first "the chicken or the egg?" scenario which perpetuates itself unless properly addressed. Since appealing to devs have a history of falling upon deaf ears, the players are taking to addressing the community instead in an attempt to identify, isolate, and eliminate the bad attitudes.

Edited by lockwoodx, 12 June 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[Kutfroat]

Diomed, on 12 June 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

If the 'meta' makes you angry blame PGI, not the players running it. If LRMs make you angry, again, it's PGI's fault. We did not make this game, we only play it. This is the one case where it is literally true that you should, "hate the game, not the player."

if someone shoots you in the head on the streets, blame the gun manufacturer, not the person. if someone drives faster than allowed, blame the car manufacturer, not the driver. if someone likes to beat up weaker ones, blame the victims for not beeing a mma heavyweight, not the bully...see, that´s the big mistake in the attitude of all the "meta wannabe pros" that are slowly ruining this game.

the problem is, there are allways and everywhere ******** that want to win, no matter if they spoil the fun and exploit broken mechanics, at least everyone else can do that, too. and many will, because no one likes losing...

ever heard of personal responsibility?

Edited by Kutfroat, 12 June 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[Charronn]

I like this game and want to see it do well but pgi really do need to change the matchmaking system in order for it to succeed.
It's never fair when a group of vets can sync drop into a pug match.12-0 or 0-12 matches win or lose are never fun (for me at least).
The learning curve is enough to put many new players off to begin with,then you get onto getting steamrollered by these meta uber players which makes people quit.That is why this games player base is small.
Simple solution - a group queue and a single player queue.Problem solved.

[CeeKay Boques]

Kutfroat, on 12 June 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

if someone shoots you in the head on the streets, blame the gun manufacturer, not the person. if someone drives faster than allowed, blame the car manufacturer, not the driver. if someone likes to beat up weaker ones, blame the victims for not beeing a mma heavyweight, not the bully...see, that´s the big mistake in the attitude of all the "meta wannabe pros" that are slowly ruining this game.


ever heard of personal responsibility?

While I completely agree with your thought, this is the most unrelated thing... in our game, everyone is someone trying to shoot the other person in the head. There's no moral ambiguity. We're just discussing best gun type.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Technoviking, on 12 June 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

While I completely agree with your thought, this is the most unrelated thing... in our game, everyone is someone trying to shoot the other person in the head. There's no moral ambiguity. We're just discussing best gun type.

While I completely agree with your thought, in this game the people aiming at each others heads 24/7 just consider this another scrub F2P FPS that's completely disposable, but in the grand scheme of things it is a MMO that depends on community and fresh blood for continued survival. MWO cannot be modded or broken off onto free shards/servers if it fails, so the "everyone is trying to shoot the other guy in the head" description is inaccurate and some of us use to play with the fun of everyone in mind. Not like a pack of slobbering dogs shooting even their own over a single KB stat not caring about how they harm the community or game in the process.

Edited by lockwoodx, 12 June 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[J0anna]

Creovex, on 11 June 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Truth be told the OP does have some points.

Just some tips for premade / comps to remember when pugging....
- Don't announce your clan / group at the start of the match (it makes everyone assume you are just that even if you are solo dropping) *recruitment is for the forums...not ingame chat
- Say "gg" regardless of winning or losing
- If you drop a big group of people (premade) in a pug, keep the arty to a minimal not to look like a bunch of spammers (come on you know you don't need that in a pug)
- Don't call puggers idiots ingame when they die (especially when you didn't communicate before)
- Take Lance or Team lead if you think you have a tactic and use the map markers (typing isn't always a clear communication form when in combat)
- Support non-premade teammates... Don't always go rogue and ignore others who are trying to lead
- Again.... say "gg" regardless of outcome and praise teammates if they do well

****Be a teammate, use good sportsmanship conduct and stop assuming you are better then others around you.

Personally I tend to be top 3 in most matches with regards to damage but I could care less because pugging is all about having fun. I played sponsored competitive computer games for years and can attest that you need not bring ego outside of a match. You just end up hurting your own reputation and that of your groups when you behave arrogantly in a pug match.

*****Pugs are all about fun so when a bad moves happens by teammates just roll with it and relax.

While I agree with most of what this post says, there is one thing I strongly disagree with. Don't say "GG" or "GGclose" unless you mean it.

Winning 12-0 is not a "GG" for either side, so just shut up and win with humility. I only say that for close games where both sides had a chance.

[CeeKay Boques]

lockwoodx, on 12 June 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

While I completely agree with your thought, in this game the people aiming at each others heads 24/7 just consider this another scrub F2P FPS that's completely disposable, but in the grand scheme of things it is a MMO that depends on community and fresh blood for continued survival. MWO cannot be modded or broken off onto free shards/servers if it fails, so the "everyone is trying to shoot the other guy in the head" description is inaccurate and some of us use to play with the fun of everyone in mind. Not like a pack of slobbering dogs shooting even their own over a single KB stat not caring about how they harm the community or game in the process.

Not even sure what you're saying here, but I respect your right to say it. Its just that every time someone says "Well we need the player base to change their actions", you've already lost. That's impossible, so we have to move to the next.

[Bobzilla]

Blame PGI or blame players, it's a lot eaiser to change a load out then it is to change a game, and if you have a problem with PGI not doing anything about meta, yet use meta, you are no better than they are.

Competitive should not be figuring out the best mechanics and builds and thats it.

[RussianWolf]

Moenrg, on 12 June 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

While I agree with most of what this post says, there is one thing I strongly disagree with. Don't say "GG" or "GGclose" unless you mean it.

Winning 12-0 is not a "GG" for either side, so just shut up and win with humility. I only say that for close games where both sides had a chance.

Well said.

I might call out a particularly good player that I got to spectate, but thats about it.

I casual pug most of the time and casual 4man occasionally. I've played with and against some of the best pilots (tournament winners and top 10 players being the only basis for this at this point). Some are cool and others are worse than feminine hygiene products. They know which they are too and either care (and are cool) or don't (being the later group). I run mechs that are sub-optimal because I like to challenge myself. Some are better than others, but I play them anyway. Heck, lately I've been running completely stock mechs in the public queue and enjoying the hell out of it. (Hunch 4H, Shawk 2D, Lander 733P, Stalker 4N, Commando 1B, and more. All stock configs). I couldn't care less if I get 10 kills or none, I couldn't care less if I win or lose. I couldn't care less if a competitive player has a problem with it. I'm having fun and being entertained, so I give PGI money.

[Creovex]

If / when they put in VOIP... I expect some of the tension in game to calm down between the pugs and comp/premades.

This alone, can probably fix around 60% of the issue as a lot of elitist are going to learn how arrogant they really are.

[CeeKay Boques]

Creovex, on 12 June 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

If / when they put in VOIP... I expect some of the tension in game to calm down between the pugs and comp/premades.

This alone, can probably fix around 60% of the issue as a lot of elitist are going to learn how arrogant they really are.

I'm pretty sure Premades will be on a private TS3, and pugs will be VOIPing themselves.

[MonkeyDCecil]

My only problem with premade, is that VOIP comms is a huge advantage. So is unfair to the pugs. We need solo only que. I dont care what build you drive. I dont care about pop tarts. All though I find it easy, and low skill. For me it is all about VOIP comms that premade use vs no comms or text comms for pugs. Not fair.

[NextGame]

Creovex, on 12 June 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

If / when they put in VOIP... I expect some of the tension in game to calm down between the pugs and comp/premades.

This alone, can probably fix around 60% of the issue as a lot of elitist are going to learn how arrogant they really are.

Technoviking, on 12 June 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure Premades will be on a private TS3, and pugs will be VOIPing themselves.

You guys do realise that there are plenty of ts3 servers specifically for MWO that anyone can jump on and use to play? There has never been a barrier to that.

Have been suggesting to people to use voice chat for years, and when its in the game and everyone can use it even better, although there will always be people who will refuse to make best use of the tools available to them.

[RussianWolf]

NextGame, on 12 June 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

You guys do realise that there are plenty of ts3 servers specifically for MWO that anyone can jump on and use to play? There has never been a barrier to that.

that has never been the point. The point is if you drop in the public queue, you should have a channel for that team. 11 people you've never met before. And when you drop in the next match, a channel for those 11 people.

Telling people to do it on their on with a 3rd party software is ridiculous because you would never have a chance to get all 11 people to find and log into the channel fast enough. You can have as little as 10 seconds from the time you find out who your teammates are.....GO!

[Almond Brown]

Yeshua Kerensky, on 11 June 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

I know no one cares about TT but there a e a few items from TT that could have balanced this game out. Get rid of Ghost heat and put a hard cap on Heat at 30 not 80 or 100 or what ever it is. This would bring back the stock mechs and heat management. I am not so sure you would have the high Alpha meta, unless they are willing to blow themselves up. Heat management in this game is a joke. I still don't know why they did not take a page from the VW pod? The system worked but it was a lot of effort and skills not just spam alphas and jump sniping. There were reason some of the items in TT exist, it balanced the weapon load outs and alphas where a last resort, not the common we see in MWO.

Just a thought, I played a lot of VW, and so far only LL came kind of close as far as a PC title. You dont need the complex items or systems the pods had but just the core rule structure for the game. It is all there, but maybe it is not fast paced enough for the twitch gamers. I would love to have to think about firing my weapon systems and how bad is the heat going to be. Maybe we will get to that point, I am just not holding my breath.

All that would do is create an alternative Meta. We have sen many Meta's and as things get changed again, more new Meta's will emerge. It is just how it works.

As to the whole, some weapons are better, from a Post above, wtf. If all the weapons were the same what would be the point really. Why bother if there were no variety. ;(

Damocles69, on 11 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

pugs are not people

Neither are some Elite Founders it appears.

[NextGame]

RussianWolf, on 12 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

that has never been the point. The point is if you drop in the public queue, you should have a channel for that team. 11 people you've never met before. And when you drop in the next match, a channel for those 11 people.

Telling people to do it on their on with a 3rd party software is ridiculous because you would never have a chance to get all 11 people to find and log into the channel fast enough. You can have as little as 10 seconds from the time you find out who your teammates are.....GO!

I don't see that anyone is arguing against proper in game voice comms. I can count the people who wouldn't want PGI to make this particular area for MWO more inclusive on the fingers of no hands.

However with existing game mechanics if you are too lazy or incompetent to use google to download ts3 and group with up to 3 people and play then it's your own problem if you are playing at a disadvantage.

Edited by NextGame, 12 June 2014 - 07:21 AM.