106 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

R Razor, on 12 June 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

They won't go to 12s because they might lose there and we can't have that. One of the folks I've seen talking trash is posting in this thread as we speak.......no class, no couth and no clue.

Just one?

I know I'll talk some trash after nasty losing streaks, sauced up, or especially both. Usually its in retaliation to someone hating on pugs or the MM dropping me against yet another premade when I'm just trying to chill and derp around in fun builds. What tends to irk me the most is everyone equates "skill" to what happens on the scoreboard at the end of a match... not that one guy who sacrifices his stats to lure 3 out to no'mans'land so the rest of his team has the numbers to push against some tarting tryhards. Teamwork is rarely rewarded when pugging, and then when you join an actual team they go full tryhard when your stats don't match up to the pros you're dropping with. Luckily I've found some good guys who aren't guilty of that often unless it's the 12s where that kind of tough love is required to compete.

Edited by lockwoodx, 12 June 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Gyrok]

Lykaon, on 12 June 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

"naturaly those who play to win ruin the game for the other group as they tend to play unpopular mechs with "unoptimized" builds"

Interesting choice of wording.That the players trying to win are ruining the game for that "other group".

Why is it not that other group is wasting the time of players trying to win by being nothing more than a designated casualty because they...

do not try to win and pilot junk while doing it.

It's fairly obvious that those "other group" players do have some sort of investment in the game because we always see them complaining.

And complaining about the wrong things.

It is assinine to blame a player for meeting the objectives of a clearly defined victory condition in a competetive game where one team can win while another team will lose.

MWo is competative there are victory conditions to meet and both teams compete to meet those conditions.

Yet the blame goes to the players who grasp how to best meet a victory condition.

they blame the winning team using any number of excuses premade/matchmaker/meta tryhards Instead of looking to the game developers to exspand the methods of meeting a victory condition beyond 2 AC5s 2 PPCs jumpjets.

Hate players using the meta ? blame the meta and a designers who failed to recognize it when we (the early beta testers) discovered it the very first day a Catapult K2 had a pair of gauss rifles plugged into it nearly 2 years ago.

Hate losing to players who use planning and co-operation.Don't blame those players Ask where the hell your grouping tools are where are the pre and post match lobbies where are the public comms?

Stop looking for divisions and look for solutions that intergrate players.

Would we see so many players asking for premade free solo only queues if there were intergrated tools for composing a pick up group before hand,a means of chatting and planning before hand and a means of communicating during a drop? What would be the difference between the pick up group and the premade then? not a heck of a lot.

That is called "playing the victim", and it does not surprise me, as it is SO commonplace in the modern world's societies, that it naturally carries over to video games.

Those types of people have no personal accountability in their real life. If something happens that does not favor them, they are a victim of something else. The blame is never theirs to take in their own eyes, because circumstances just stack up on them according to their point of view.

The issue is, in the modern world, very precious few take accountability for their own actions, accept that they can improve and be proactive/productive about. Those players who are highly successful top tier players in this game fall into one of 2 groups. The pub queue players do not care which group they are in, just that they are the victims of better players.

The groups consist of the following types:

"Craftsman" - Many of you likely know these types of guys, they are generally good people, and try to perfect their craft in game. Whatever the meta may be, they will adjust to it at varying rates of speed as they hone their skills to become the best in the game. They are not likely to be massively impacted by changes to what is the best method of play in the game because they will adjust. Very likely successful in life as well for the same reasons.

"Specialists" - This crowd is the group that is specifically good at what the current meta may be. Once that changes, they will likely fall back into the pack. The current metagame is giving them their "5 minutes of fame" and they are exploiting that for all it is worth.

The average pub queue player falls into a group we will call "Casuals"

"Casuals" - Do not have time to devote to the game to improve to the top tier level. They are upset they lose, but do not know enough about the game to be able to perceive where the deficiencies are and improve. They may or may not seek out groups for many reasons, if they do seek a group it is to find like minded players and improve. If they do not seek a group it is fear of rejection or rigid imposed standards from comp teams...the latter is more a phobia than a reality. However, such is life.

The last group of players are the "Victims/Trolls"

"Victims/Trolls" - These are the players that have the time to dedicate but do not wish to improve, or seek to gain pleasure only by sewing discontent with players who want to win. These players are likely average to bottom ELO bracket depending on skill set, and typically play terribad builds in mechs that have long been irrelevant. They either do it to troll others, or in some cases, they do it because they do not know better, and do not seek to know better. They complain the loudest about stupid things on the forums that everyone is aware are not issues. (See: the "plz nerf mlas" thread that starts once a month from a different user)

If you can find a "rosetta stone" to get those groups to see eye to eye...then so be it. However, because of the nature of the people that fall into each group, you will likely never accomplish it as there are always going to sociocultural differences that prevent them from being able to understand one another.

[Wispsy]

R Razor, on 12 June 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

If the shoe fits..................

lol

Well I am actually usually rather civil unless given cause. Of course, I have had a few bad days whilst playing over 20,000 games since closed beta. Unless of course you count "your lives, i claim them"...but aside from that usually I will only ever trash talk when people start having a go at me...then of course I am going to have some fun back.

Even if my actions were terrible and I acted like Villz or Khan Ignotus Kotare I still fail to see how you can judge every player on the actions of those few...if we are to follow that logic...then you complainers are terrible people and a blight on this communty...most of what I see from you complainers is blind hatred and baseless accusations. You trash talk endlessly about meta whores being **** and useless and only capable of winning due to cheese even when you have tried using it and failed abysmally. You actively engage in trying to drive people away from this game and anybody who ever wants to win is labeled forever as a "tryhard" and is to be insulted in chat at all opportunities. You scare any new players you can from ever using a build that could be construed as having an advantage over a completely random one and then try and force them to hate everybody using an optimized build as the reason they are losing. You purposefully lose games for your team using stupid stuff and going stupid places then complain that the other team had premades and there was no hope and everybody should just quit. And none of you have any skill at all in this game or any other despite your massive egos.

But thankfully, I try not to paint large groups of people with a single common aspect using a massive brush made from the worst things I have ever seen from individuals from that ill defined group I have created in my head.

Edit: The Lords competitive team is actually very well behaved. What you are referring to is people like Villz, who are not even in the competitive scene at all. He has not been in one game since leaving DV8. Go look at the tournament roster and find complaints against those individuals...in fact a lot of them are some of the most helpful people in this community. Love those large brushes...are you American by any chance?

Edited by Wispsy, 12 June 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[R Razor]

If you mean we encourage people not to be a blind sheep and run nothing but meta then yeah some of us are guilty..........it takes more skill and patience to win with a laser mech than it ever will with a pop tarting ppc-ac mech. You can try to claim otherwise if you wish but you know I'm right.

The folks that live and die by that meta are the true blight on the community as they actively work to kill diversity and attempt to funnel every player, both old and new, into running cookie cutter crap just because it's easier to get a kill with.

If you folks had your way then the only mechs in the game would be one of those builds and it wouldn't be MWO it'd be POP TART META online.

[Haji1096]

Its not either side's fault.

• No player in the game wants the way they want to play to be determined by someone else. If you want the freedom to customize a mech, you have to deal with the downside when your teammate is running a sub-optimal load out.
  
• The nature of a game is such that a one mech lead is significant. One mistake can snowball and cause a stomp. I consider a a 12 to 7 game a close game. Kills and assists are rewarded. Capping is not. Conquest and Assault are basically variants of skirmish.
  
• The matchmaker cannot create an even match. It does not take into account load out. Not enough players in the game to constrict the ELO bands such that teams are even.

Those are all design decisions. PGI created the game, so they can take the credit or be at fault. There are two versions of MWO, the one players want to play for fun and the one where players are competitive. Neither one is inherently right or wrong, but PGI has not done anything to separate the two. It may not be possible. However, each team deserves a FAIR shot at winning a match. I have no idea how to measure fairness or implement it within the context of programming a matchmaker specifically for this game.


The layer of douchebaggery that permeates the game is prevalent everywhere. I'm sure I have , at times, contributed to it myself. No one is the best version of themselves all the time. However, I hope that times where I'm not a douche are more numerous and more important than the times that I am.

I usually vent to my unit mates when I get pissed off at the game. Invariable, getting frustrated and/or angry happens because of the same reason: my expectations are not met (within the game).

Sometimes, I am competitive and I expect to win. My team loses because I sucked that game and we just weren't as good: "WTF is that guy doing ? My team sucked. Oh wait, I should have taken command and played better."

Other times, I am trying a crazy build and just want to have fun, and end up losing to a team of meta mechs: "**** these meta mechs, I just want to have fun and mess around. Oh wait, I should have also brought a meta mech and played better."

I've dropped with/against the Lords,MWST, scrimmaged against Antares Scorpions, Night Watch and played many other units in MCW. I've also gone on NA comstar and dropped with new players, attempted to answer questions to best of my ability about the game. I've seen C-beams glitter at the Tannhauser gate. Pick up players are just as much part of the community as us entrenched unit types are. Being in an organized group does not confer any type of status or entitle you to any expectation of how others should play.

Viewing every issue through a PUG/competitive lens does us a disservice. The community for this game is amazing. In fact, its probably the only thing keeping this game afloat. You are a part of it whether you are dropping in singleton or in a group. You are a part of it if you are running a Locust with flamers or a Dragon Slayer meta build.

Just remember before you open your mouth or fire up that keyboard to be kind to yourself, and everyone else.

Edited by Haji1096, 12 June 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Creovex]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

That is called "playing the victim", and it does not surprise me, as it is SO commonplace in the modern world's societies, that it naturally carries over to video games.

Those types of people have no personal accountability in their real life. If something happens that does not favor them, they are a victim of something else. The blame is never theirs to take in their own eyes, because circumstances just stack up on them according to their point of view.

The issue is, in the modern world, very precious few take accountability for their own actions, accept that they can improve and be proactive/productive about. Those players who are highly successful top tier players in this game fall into one of 2 groups. The pub queue players do not care which group they are in, just that they are the victims of better players.

The groups consist of the following types:

"Craftsman" - Many of you likely know these types of guys, they are generally good people, and try to perfect their craft in game. Whatever the meta may be, they will adjust to it at varying rates of speed as they hone their skills to become the best in the game. They are not likely to be massively impacted by changes to what is the best method of play in the game because they will adjust. Very likely successful in life as well for the same reasons.

"Specialists" - This crowd is the group that is specifically good at what the current meta may be. Once that changes, they will likely fall back into the pack. The current metagame is giving them their "5 minutes of fame" and they are exploiting that for all it is worth.

The average pub queue player falls into a group we will call "Casuals"

"Casuals" - Do not have time to devote to the game to improve to the top tier level. They are upset they lose, but do not know enough about the game to be able to perceive where the deficiencies are and improve. They may or may not seek out groups for many reasons, if they do seek a group it is to find like minded players and improve. If they do not seek a group it is fear of rejection or rigid imposed standards from comp teams...the latter is more a phobia than a reality. However, such is life.

The last group of players are the "Victims/Trolls"

"Victims/Trolls" - These are the players that have the time to dedicate but do not wish to improve, or seek to gain pleasure only by sewing discontent with players who want to win. These players are likely average to bottom ELO bracket depending on skill set, and typically play terribad builds in mechs that have long been irrelevant. They either do it to troll others, or in some cases, they do it because they do not know better, and do not seek to know better. They complain the loudest about stupid things on the forums that everyone is aware are not issues. (See: the "plz nerf mlas" thread that starts once a month from a different user)

If you can find a "rosetta stone" to get those groups to see eye to eye...then so be it. However, because of the nature of the people that fall into each group, you will likely never accomplish it as there are always going to sociocultural differences that prevent them from being able to understand one another.

So how do you explain yourself there Gyrock... you claim to be elite but at the same time, fall under the troll banner... .

MW YODA: Confusing, your groups is....

[Adiuvo]

R Razor, on 12 June 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

If you mean we encourage people not to be a blind sheep and run nothing but meta then yeah some of us are guilty..........it takes more skill and patience to win with a laser mech than it ever will with a pop tarting ppc-ac mech. You can try to claim otherwise if you wish but you know I'm right.

The folks that live and die by that meta are the true blight on the community as they actively work to kill diversity and attempt to funnel every player, both old and new, into running cookie cutter crap just because it's easier to get a kill with.

If you folks had your way then the only mechs in the game would be one of those builds and it wouldn't be MWO it'd be POP TART META online.

Who are the competitive players you're talking about, again? Has anyone here suggested that?

Like Wispsy said earlier, there haven't been any comp players posting in this thread until he did (and me now, I guess).

You have this really funny image in your mind of the comp scene and it's just flat out wrong. You see specific attitudes from people and instantly stick them with a 'competitive' label, even if they've never done a tournament in their life. You're in some kind of hatred feedback loop.

MWO is small enough that it's not particularly hard to keep track of who's a ****. You have a brain, use it to identify people instead of losing credibility by behaving with the accuracy of a 3 year old finger painting.

Edited by Adiuvo, 12 June 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Wispsy]

R Razor, on 12 June 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

If you mean we encourage people not to be a blind sheep and run nothing but meta then yeah some of us are guilty..........it takes more skill and patience to win with a laser mech than it ever will with a pop tarting ppc-ac mech. You can try to claim otherwise if you wish but you know I'm right.

The folks that live and die by that meta are the true blight on the community as they actively work to kill diversity and attempt to funnel every player, both old and new, into running cookie cutter crap just because it's easier to get a kill with.

If you folks had your way then the only mechs in the game would be one of those builds and it wouldn't be MWO it'd be POP TART META online.

You say that...yet I pilot almost always laser mechs and the least played class by a long way in this game...

[Bobzilla]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

That is called "playing the victim", and it does not surprise me, as it is SO commonplace in the modern world's societies, that it naturally carries over to video games.

Those types of people have no personal accountability in their real life. If something happens that does not favor them, they are a victim of something else. The blame is never theirs to take in their own eyes, because circumstances just stack up on them according to their point of view.

The issue is, in the modern world, very precious few take accountability for their own actions, accept that they can improve and be proactive/productive about. Those players who are highly successful top tier players in this game fall into one of 2 groups. The pub queue players do not care which group they are in, just that they are the victims of better players.

The groups consist of the following types:

"Craftsman" - Many of you likely know these types of guys, they are generally good people, and try to perfect their craft in game. Whatever the meta may be, they will adjust to it at varying rates of speed as they hone their skills to become the best in the game. They are not likely to be massively impacted by changes to what is the best method of play in the game because they will adjust. Very likely successful in life as well for the same reasons.

"Specialists" - This crowd is the group that is specifically good at what the current meta may be. Once that changes, they will likely fall back into the pack. The current metagame is giving them their "5 minutes of fame" and they are exploiting that for all it is worth.

The average pub queue player falls into a group we will call "Casuals"

"Casuals" - Do not have time to devote to the game to improve to the top tier level. They are upset they lose, but do not know enough about the game to be able to perceive where the deficiencies are and improve. They may or may not seek out groups for many reasons, if they do seek a group it is to find like minded players and improve. If they do not seek a group it is fear of rejection or rigid imposed standards from comp teams...the latter is more a phobia than a reality. However, such is life.

The last group of players are the "Victims/Trolls"

"Victims/Trolls" - These are the players that have the time to dedicate but do not wish to improve, or seek to gain pleasure only by sewing discontent with players who want to win. These players are likely average to bottom ELO bracket depending on skill set, and typically play terribad builds in mechs that have long been irrelevant. They either do it to troll others, or in some cases, they do it because they do not know better, and do not seek to know better. They complain the loudest about stupid things on the forums that everyone is aware are not issues. (See: the "plz nerf mlas" thread that starts once a month from a different user)

If you can find a "rosetta stone" to get those groups to see eye to eye...then so be it. However, because of the nature of the people that fall into each group, you will likely never accomplish it as there are always going to sociocultural differences that prevent them from being able to understand one another.

This game needs only 2 categories (if you think it's a good idea to make sweeping generalizations), those who want the game closer to lore and/or TT, and those that want the game to be a pure FPS. I think this is the root to most of the actual problems.

[Creovex]

Adiuvo, on 12 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Who are the competitive players you're talking about, again? Has anyone here suggested that?

Like Wispsy said earlier, there haven't been any comp players posting in this thread until he did (and me now, I guess).

You have this really funny image in your mind of the comp scene and it's just flat out wrong. You see specific attitudes from people and instantly stick them with a 'competitive' label, even if they've never done a tournament in their life. You're in some kind of hatred feedback loop.

MWO is small enough that it's not particularly hard to keep track of who's a ****. You have a brain, use it to identify people instead of losing credibility by behaving with the accuracy of a 3 year old finger painting.

I think he is talking about ingame experiences... not just the forums...

As for creditability about not getting comps typecast as *******... coming in here and insulting someone doesn't help sell your story of virtue and whoa... (bolded and underlined!)

[Mcgral18]

Creovex, on 12 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I think he is talking about ingame experiences... not just the forums...

As for creditability about not getting comps typecast as *******... coming in here and insulting someone doesn't help sell your story of virtue and whoa... (bolded and underlined!)

Shall we count the number of times Tryhard has been mentioned in the thread?

Insults are being thrown by both groups, yet very little is being discussed.

The players aren't to blame for using weapons that are quite simply more efficient. PGI is to blame for those weapons being superior. It's as simple as that.

[Adiuvo]

Creovex, on 12 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

I think he is talking about ingame experiences... not just the forums...

As for creditability about not getting comps typecast as *******... coming in here and insulting someone doesn't help sell your story of virtue and whoa... (bolded and underlined!)

If he's talking about in game experiences, how does he know they're even comp players? Running a lance of 3DS/13D does not a comp team make.

I'm not trying to sell a story of virtue. I'm not pious. I also think it's ridiculous that you would consider that an 'insult' worthy of being mentioned considering the content of his post and other things written here.

Edited by Adiuvo, 12 June 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

The players aren't to blame for using weapons that are quite simply more efficient. PGI is to blame for those weapons being superior. It's as simple as that.

I don't see the weapon itself as the issue, but the ability to boat them with little to no restriction is.

Battlemaster has 7+ energy hardpoints. Doesn't mean it should be able to fit 7 PPCs. Sized hardpoints could go a long way to fixing the issue in my opinion.

[Kutfroat]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

....blablabla...i r too good and stronk for you, all are your base belong to us...blablabla...

tl,dr version.

[Almond Brown]

Tombstoner, on 12 June 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

It's not about making this game like TT but the game has its roots in the TT mech design system. When PGI ported it over it left many things either broken or simply missing. Things that have consequence for the MWO game. I can clearly see them and other like myself have posted over and over again multiple times foreshadowing issue after issue.

It's like making a computer version of chess but leaving out 2 pawns. a knight and some pieces dont move the same as TT. worse yet is if you move your queen more then 2 times in a row you loose a turn due to over heating. Then telling your rabid forum community of chess fanatics who bought the founders package they are not the target audience.

later during a round of aggressive re-balancing some pieces are given a recharge mechanic. All the while your player community thinks your working on community warfare when in reality they are building OP xianggi versions of classic chess.

Sorry? What? Do you have a TL:DR version of that dribble handy?

So only one side gets those nerfs in your "Chess" analogy? Yup, that would be the suck. But I would guess both sides would get em right?

OMG! We are downgraded to Comedic Lead today. arrghhhh

Edited by Almond Brown, 12 June 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Aresye]

Kutfroat, on 12 June 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

if someone shoots you in the head on the streets, blame the gun manufacturer, not the person. if someone drives faster than allowed, blame the car manufacturer, not the driver. if someone likes to beat up weaker ones, blame the victims for not beeing a mma heavyweight, not the bully...see, that´s the big mistake in the attitude of all the "meta wannabe pros" that are slowly ruining this game.

the problem is, there are allways and everywhere ******** that want to win, no matter if they spoil the fun and exploit broken mechanics, at least everyone else can do that, too. and many will, because no one likes losing...

ever heard of personal responsibility?

Your comparison doesn't work because all of the things you listed are illegal under current laws. The meta is not against any rules of MWO and is 100% within the boundaries of the game's design.

So let's make your comparison more accurate, shall we?

Quote

if someone shoots you in the head on the streets, blame the gun manufacturer, not the person.

If the objective is to shoot people in the head, and some guns are designed to be more accurate and powerful than other guns, then how is a person choosing the most efficient method of accomplishing that at fault? Each person has equal access to the same guns, and if their preferred weapon is not as efficient at shooting people in the head as other weapons, it's on them to either pick the most efficient weapon, or complain to the gun manufacturer to fix their sub par weapons.

Quote

if someone drives faster than allowed, blame the car manufacturer, not the driver.

If the objective is a race, and there's a car that goes faster than other cars, it's the driver's own fault if they willingly choose to not drive the most efficient car to win the race. If they want to win the race in a non-optimal car that doesn't go as fast, they must contact the manufacturer to make their car better, or even out the top performing cars with the others.

Quote

if someone likes to beat up weaker ones, blame the victims for not beeing a mma heavyweight, not the bully

Except the victim in this case can choose to be as big and heavy as they want to. It isn't the bully's fault that the victim consciously chooses to be weaker and then complains about the bully despite they have the ability to be just as big and powerful as the bully.

Or they can contact the school officials to ensure a more diverse range of body builds allowed in the school.

Once again:
The meta is not against any rules of MWO and is 100% within the boundaries of the game's design. Your comparisons are illegal activities against the law.

[Almond Brown]

RussianWolf, on 12 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't see the weapon itself as the issue, but the ability to boat them with little to no restriction is.

Battlemaster has 7+ energy hardpoints. Doesn't mean it should be able to fit 7 PPCs. Sized hardpoints could go a long way to fixing the issue in my opinion.

And with current game restraints beyond hard points, you can't actually fit 7 and expect to be at all useful trying to use all 7 at once, unless you curb your Trigger and then 3-4 would be a much better design as it would allow for more Engine, more armor and other little bits.

Restrictions or lack of. Both have there drawbacks. A choice had to be made so the game could begin right? Don't forget PGI did not invent MechWarrior or the Mechs in it. It is simply trying to emulate a version of it.

And for the billionth time. Not "everyone" will have the ability to be made happy. Get used to it already ffs.

Edited by Almond Brown, 12 June 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Almond Brown, on 12 June 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

And with current game restraints beyond hard points, you can't actually fit 7 and expect to be at all useful trying to use all 7 at once, unless you curb your Trigger and then 3-4 would be a much better design as it would allow for more Engine, more armor and other little bits.

Restrictions or lack of. Both have there drawbacks. A choice had to be made so the game could begin right? Don't forget PGI did not invent MechWarrior or the Mechs in it. It is simply trying to emulate a version of it.

And for the billionth time. Not "everyone" will have the ability to be made happy. Get used to it already ffs.

never said it was a great build,it would be a very specialized build that could headshot anyone in the current state of the game.Just remember it being discussed when the mech came out.

I've been playing the mechwarrior games since the beginning. I well aware of the history. I'm also of the opinion that the hardpoint system used in MW4 was better as it prevented a lot of what we see in MWO. yes, people still gravatated to certain mechs that had the "optimum layout" but there were honestly more mechs that were considered "viable" for different roles.

not going to give the last line there any credit. You simply aren't worth it.

[Wispsy]

RussianWolf, on 12 June 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

never said it was a great build,it would be a very specialized build that could headshot anyone in the current state of the game.Just remember it being discussed when the mech came out.

I've been playing the mechwarrior games since the beginning. I well aware of the history. I'm also of the opinion that the hardpoint system used in MW4 was better as it prevented a lot of what we see in MWO. yes, people still gravatated to certain mechs that had the "optimum layout" but there were honestly more mechs that were considered "viable" for different roles.

not going to give the last line there any credit. You simply aren't worth it.

Until you got really good then it was only poptart...

[Creovex]

RussianWolf, on 12 June 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

never said it was a great build,it would be a very specialized build that could headshot anyone in the current state of the game.Just remember it being discussed when the mech came out.

I've been playing the mechwarrior games since the beginning. I well aware of the history. I'm also of the opinion that the hardpoint system used in MW4 was better as it prevented a lot of what we see in MWO. yes, people still gravatated to certain mechs that had the "optimum layout" but there were honestly more mechs that were considered "viable" for different roles.

not going to give the last line there any credit. You simply aren't worth it.

Talk about irony... I was competing during MW3 and recall the hate for MW4s build limitations haha

Looking back now I still see both rationales. .. however we weren't the assess you see on here today doing it outside of competition.... which had its own rules.