26 replies to this topic

[PASHA]

Greetings Mechwarriors,

In light of the last public test, I came to a certain realization. I want to gauge the community on this:

My suggestion to PGI is to allow for us to manipulate the number of jump jets on certain Clan chassis - most importantly the Summoner - while maintaining the hardwired engine feature as per canon.

For example, I think having 5 JJs on the Summoner - Prime is excessive and as a result, this chassis suffers from severe diminishing marginal utility.

So why do I suggest this? The following two reasons are basically sub-reasons of the above example: 1 is variety. Why take a Summoner when you can take a Timberwolf S with exchangeable jump jets and more customization? Putting the Summoner on par would definitely enrich the MWO experience by providing pilots with a serious-to-consider alternative.

Also, allowing us to manipulate the jump jets can bring this difficult-to-integrate chassis into a more competitive stance by allowing us to implement more missile systems. For instance, an ER PPC, Gauss, and SSRM6 if you knock off a few JJs. I think this is reasonable because it does not aggravate the issue of "pin point meta" while at the same time it unlocks this chassis' potential, considering it's a 70 ton heavy Clan Mech.

What do you all think?

Edited by saKhan Zellkai Furey, 15 June 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[John80sk]

I talked about this in the Summoner feedback thread. I know it's cannon for it to have 5JJ, but we've deviated pretty far from cannon in a lot of cases for the sake of balance (see the current omni-pod system). The Summoner doesn't need a 4 ton handicap when it's already 5 tons behind the timberwolf, and without Endo.

So yeah, I'd like to see this happen (would also be nice to see 5JJ actually be useful, but that's another matter). As another balancing option, the hardpoints themselves could be locked. What I mean by this is that you couldn't put anything in the jumpjet slots other than jumpjets, but could remove the jumpjets themselves.

By the way, should have made this a poll.

[Xarian]

Strongly disagree. Lack of flexibility is one of the few ways that PGI has to balance weapons/mechs. JJs are extremely strong, and there should be an opportunity cost for taking them.

[John80sk]

Xarian, on 14 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Strongly disagree. Lack of flexibility is one of the few ways that PGI has to balance weapons/mechs. JJs are extremely strong, and there should be an opportunity cost for taking them.

I agree with your last point, but there are currently only two mechs who actually have to pay this cost. The nova can get away with it, as it mostly uses low tonnage weapons anyways with its million hardpoints. The summoner on the other hand has to take bigger weapons with its limited hardpoints, which it can't do while sporting respectable armor due to tonnage.

[Xarian]

The Nova pays the cost too; it restricts it from using heavier weapons, as you said. There are plenty of heavier energy weapons available, and you aren't forced to use the ERML stock layout.

You're saying that the Summoner can't have (1) jumpjets, (2) max armor, and (3) lots of heavy weapons all at the same time. You're just re-iterating the whole point of balance. It's not supposed to be a Mary Sue-mech.

[PASHA]

John80sk, on 14 June 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

I talked about this in the Summoner feedback thread. I know it's cannon for it to have 5JJ, but we've deviated pretty far from cannon in a lot of cases for the sake of balance (see the current omni-pod system). The Summoner doesn't need a 4 ton handicap when it's already 5 tons behind the timberwolf, and without Endo.

So yeah, I'd like to see this happen (would also be nice to see 5JJ actually be useful, but that's another matter). As another balancing option, the hardpoints themselves could be locked. What I mean by this is that you couldn't put anything in the jumpjet slots other than jumpjets, but could remove the jumpjets themselves.

By the way, should have made this a poll.

Aff, I noted it too after I posted this thread. Glad other people agree. Hopefully PGI can address this.

[Modo44]

No. Clan mechs already are vastly superior to IS tech simply because of better weight/heat/DPS efficiency. There is no need to make MWO even more pay to win until winter.

[John80sk]

Xarian, on 14 June 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

The Nova pays the cost too; it restricts it from using heavier weapons, as you said. There are plenty of heavier energy weapons available, and you aren't forced to use the ERML stock layout.

You're saying that the Summoner can't have (1) jumpjets, (2) max armor, and (3) lots of heavy weapons all at the same time. You're just re-iterating the whole point of balance. It's not supposed to be a Mary Sue-mech.

Ugh, I don't want to get in a circular argument here. I'm not sure if you're purposely refusing to address my argument, or if I am explaining it improperly.

The point is that the Summoner cannot mount a loadout that can compete with other mechs of its weight class such as the Cataphract or Timberwolf (which can mount respectable firepower, jumpjets, and full armor where it counts). This is especially important given that we will soon see 3/3/3/3. This will be my last attempt to reiterate my original point.

[PASHA]

Modo44, on 14 June 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

No. Clan mechs already are vastly superior to IS tech simply because of better weight/heat/DPS efficiency. There is no need to make MWO even more pay to win until winter.

Can you substantiate that? Sure some have better weight/heat/DPS efficiency, but what's being ignored by that statement is weapon behaviour; the qualitative characteristics that can't be calculated but make the weapon more difficult to use ie) burst fire ACs.

[Modo44]

Maybe you have not watched any of the streams in which everything just melted, and IS mechs were largely irrelevant. Or, you are really, deeply terrible at math. The weapons weigh less for the same or better DPS, which leaves room for even better DPS by adding either heatsinks, or more weapons. The special XL engines make everything XL-safe regardless of hitboxes, which instantly makes all not XL-friendly IS not viable anymore. The increased weapon ranges mean that "average range" Clan weapons are equal to "long range" IS stuff.

1 to 1 comparison @75 tons. The Orion VA can take STD300 (not XL safe) with 2xERPPC+4xSSRM2 (200 shots), 18DHS. The Timber Wolf from the first test can take XL375, 2xCERPPC+2xCSSRM6(400 shots)+3xERML, 18 DHS. The "backup" lasers of the Clan mech have a 21 alpha and 450m of optimal range. It has a 50% bigger missile alpha with a larger ammo stock. It also runs slightly 20kph faster than the Orion. If you could take the engine lower, it could easily pack 25 DHS for nearly uninterrupted dual ERPPC fire. Balanced as ****.

The exact same tonnage math applies to the ability to remove 4 out of 5 JJs, as in your example. 22 DHS is just about enough to make dual ERPPC sensible, or more generally, to take any energy-heavy setup from too hot for its own good to pretty cool. If running cool already, well, enjoy the backup 4xCERML set (28 alpha @450m optimal range).

Edited by Modo44, 14 June 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[PASHA]

Modo44, on 14 June 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

Maybe you have not watched any of the streams in which everything just melted, and IS mechs were largely irrelevant. Or, you are really, deeply terrible at math. The weapons weigh less for the same or better DPS, which leaves room for even better DPS by adding either heatsinks, or more weapons. The special XL engines make everything XL-safe regardless of hitboxes, which instantly makes all not XL-friendly IS not viable anymore. The increased weapon ranges mean that "average range" Clan weapons are equal to "long range" IS stuff.

1 to 1 comparison @75 tons. The Orion VA can take STD300 (not XL safe) with 2xERPPC+4xSSRM2 (200 shots), 18DHS. The Timber Wolf from the first test can take XL375, 2xCERPPC+2xCSSRM6(400 shots)+3xERML, 18 DHS. The "backup" lasers of the Clan mech have a 21 alpha and 450m of optimal range. It has a 50% bigger missile alpha with a larger ammo stock. It also runs slightly 20kph faster than the Orion. If you could take the engine lower, it could easily pack 25 DHS for nearly uninterrupted dual ERPPC fire. Balanced as ****.

The exact same tonnage math applies to the ability to remove 4 out of 5 JJs, as in your example. 22 DHS is just about enough to make dual ERPPC sensible, or more generally, to take any energy-heavy setup from too hot for its own good to pretty cool. If running cool already, well, enjoy the backup 4xCERML set (28 alpha @450m optimal range).

Modo, I'm not arguing about balance. And never would because it's so subjective and every damn person has their own religious view about it. So no, I'm not going there.

What I'm asking in OP is why take a fixed-JJ Summoner when I can take a Timberwolf S with much more customization?

As a comp pilot, there's no reason to take the Summoner despite it's proclaimed "versatility" to which I say it's anything but. I might as well ask for a refund and keep my Timberwolf a la carte.

[Modo44]

This is like saying "Awesome bad, take Victor". Of course some mechs will turn out stronger than others, and there is no point in breaking the overall setup for any one case. Down that road is one mech at every weight class equipped with different skins (models).

[PASHA]

Modo44, on 14 June 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

This is like saying "Awesome bad, take Victor". Of course some mechs will turn out stronger than others, and there is no point in breaking the overall setup for any one case. Down that road is one mech at every weight class equipped with different skins (models).

Thing is, giving the Summoner jump jet customization isn't going to "break the overall setup." It's fixed in place and limited by virtue of its hardwired engine, 1 ballistic/1 missile/ and 1 energy hardpoint. It's about giving it a little push in the right direction. There's no sense in asserting that it'd produce some earth-shattering, apocalyptic game-balance implosion. And like I said, such a tweak won't aggravate the infamous "meta-game" dynamic.

I'm saying look at each chassis in its context.

Edit: I should note, comparing it like the Awesome vs Victor is a bit faulty. The Summoner is up there as a crowd favourite and as such, it's a shame to see this Mech get shelved at least on the comp scene if the Timberwolf S can outperform it in every regard - The Summoner doesn't even have a maneuverability advantage over it as it's famed for at least in lore.

Edited by saKhan Zellkai Furey, 15 June 2014 - 12:54 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Modo44, on 14 June 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

Maybe you have not watched any of the streams in which everything just melted, and IS mechs were largely irrelevant. Or, you are really, deeply terrible at math. The weapons weigh less for the same or better DPS, which leaves room for even better DPS by adding either heatsinks, or more weapons. The special XL engines make everything XL-safe regardless of hitboxes, which instantly makes all not XL-friendly IS not viable anymore. The increased weapon ranges mean that "average range" Clan weapons are equal to "long range" IS stuff.

1 to 1 comparison @75 tons. The Orion VA can take STD300 (not XL safe) with 2xERPPC+4xSSRM2 (200 shots), 18DHS. The Timber Wolf from the first test can take XL375, 2xCERPPC+2xCSSRM6(400 shots)+3xERML, 18 DHS. The "backup" lasers of the Clan mech have a 21 alpha and 450m of optimal range. It has a 50% bigger missile alpha with a larger ammo stock. It also runs slightly 20kph faster than the Orion. If you could take the engine lower, it could easily pack 25 DHS for nearly uninterrupted dual ERPPC fire. Balanced as ****.

The exact same tonnage math applies to the ability to remove 4 out of 5 JJs, as in your example. 22 DHS is just about enough to make dual ERPPC sensible, or more generally, to take any energy-heavy setup from too hot for its own good to pretty cool. If running cool already, well, enjoy the backup 4xCERML set (28 alpha @450m optimal range).

true, but your Orion can try to torsotwist and easly bera line of sight to the center torso, the Timberwolf can't, he would have to turn a lot further. Your Orion also has a lot more pinpoint, since clanlasers do have a way bigger burn time. You can shoot a lot mro ewith your Orions heat threshold in terms of pinpoint. IS missiles may weight more, but the volley is better to brng more missiles through the AMS.

[ImperialKnight]

I vote keep the Summoner as it is.

I'm not competitive, nor are majority of players. And I don't care about making the Summoner "more competitive"

Take the Timber Wolf as you have mentioned. The Summoner is one of those mechs with "meta" potential, and I've had it with those mechs. 5 JJs nerf = good in my book.

saKhan Zellkai Furey, on 13 June 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors,

In light of the last public test, I came to a certain realization. I want to gauge the community on this:

My suggestion to PGI is to allow for us to manipulate the number of jump jets on certain Clan chassis - most importantly the Summoner - while maintaining the hardwired engine feature as per canon.

For example, I think having 5 JJs on the Summoner - Prime is excessive and as a result, this chassis suffers from severe diminishing marginal utility.

So why do I suggest this? The following two reasons are basically sub-reasons of the above example: 1 is variety. Why take a Summoner when you can take a Timberwolf S with exchangeable jump jets and more customization? Putting the Summoner on par would definitely enrich the MWO experience by providing pilots with a serious-to-consider alternative.

Also, allowing us to manipulate the jump jets can bring this difficult-to-integrate chassis into a more competitive stance by allowing us to implement more missile systems. For instance, an ER PPC, Gauss, and SSRM6 if you knock off a few JJs. I think this is reasonable because it does not aggravate the issue of "pin point meta" while at the same time it gives this chassis a bit more punch considering it's a 70 ton heavy Clan Mech.

What do you all think?

[PASHA]

knightsljx, on 15 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

I vote keep the Summoner as it is.

I'm not competitive, nor are majority of players. And I don't care about making the Summoner "more competitive"

Take the Timber Wolf as you have mentioned. The Summoner is one of those mechs with "meta" potential, and I've had it with those mechs. 5 JJs nerf = good in my book.

knightsljx, on 15 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

I vote keep the Summoner as it is.

I'm not competitive, nor are majority of players. And I don't care about making the Summoner "more competitive"

Take the Timber Wolf as you have mentioned. The Summoner is one of those mechs with "meta" potential, and I've had it with those mechs. 5 JJs nerf = good in my book.

I don't mean to come off condescending, but did you fully read my post? My suggested tweak won't impact the meta dynamic at all.

The Timberwolf S is already coming out to be the main potential meta/comp loadout with the capability to carry 2ER PPC and a Gauss with 1JJ so it's ironic that you're suggesting that over the Summoner.

[John80sk]

knightsljx, on 15 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

I vote keep the Summoner as it is.

I'm not competitive, nor are majority of players. And I don't care about making the Summoner "more competitive"

Take the Timber Wolf as you have mentioned. The Summoner is one of those mechs with "meta" potential, and I've had it with those mechs. 5 JJs nerf = good in my book.

The only possible "meta" Summoner can already be done (PPC+Gauss), even if you could pull some jumpjets you still wouldn't be able to cram another PPC in there. The ability to remove some jumpjets would only add to the mech's brawling potential.

[ImperialKnight]

Yes, I read your post. Apparently you don't understand me. I don't want to see more viable meta poptarts. Your argument is making the Summoner "more competitive", I don't see the point of that.

saKhan Zellkai Furey, on 15 June 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

I don't mean to come off condescending, but did you fully read my post? My suggested tweak won't impact the meta dynamic at all.

The Timberwolf S is already coming out to be the main potential meta/comp loadout with the capability to carry 2ER PPC and a Gauss with 1JJ so it's ironic that you're suggesting that over the Summoner.

[101011]

knightsljx, on 15 June 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yes, I read your post. Apparently you don't understand me. I don't want to see more viable meta poptarts. Your argument is making the Summoner "more competitive", I don't see the point of that.

To be honest, it already is. 3 ERPPC, or 1 ERPPC and a Guass, or 2 ERPPC and a Tcomp depending on how valuable it is. The thing is, the Timber Wolf is simply more viable, invalidating the Summoner at higher levels of play.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I disagree. Make every mech take ALL the TT value of JJs.

You take them all... or you take none. Many poptart problems solved.